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Tacking in front of another boar, Rule 10-13 or 11, sandwich case?
Ólafur Bjarnason
Nationality: Iceland
Certifications:
Regional Umpire
0
This case is based on a race in Icelandic championship of keelboat in strong wind (10-12m/s (20 Nm/h)) wave approximate 0.5 m to 0.7m, the boats are 26 feet and must round a windward mark on port side. The was no protest or collision.
Blue and Red are on starboard and had fetch the mark. Blue was ahead of red and the was a gap of 6 boat length between them. Yellow and Green sailed into that gap.
Yellow and Green are one port and had to take one tack to fetch the mark on port. There was not overlap between them. Green was ahead but 2,5 boat length too leeward. Yellow tack to starboard when she got little bit above the leyline to fetch the mark.
Yellow duck behind Blue to avoid collision and tack to starboard in front of Green. Green sail to windward to avoid collision and lost some speed. Red had to sail to windward to avoid collision to Green. At that moment the boat did reach the zone and rule 18 applied. The was no collision or protest.
Green did sail little bit high above the mark and force Red to sail that high too to round the mark.
I want to get your opinion on an incident in that race to get better understanding of the rule
There is a video shut of than incident from minute 0:30 to 1:00 https://www.facebook.com/fridrikorn/videos/213264470811277
Is Yellow braking a RRS rules 10 or13. is she head too wind (HTW) in time so Yellow is and windward boat rule 11 applied and no rule broken
Created: 21-Aug-20 12:08
Comments
P
Angelo Guarino
Certifications:
Regional Judge
Fleet Measurer
0
Here is a shot from the video when Green completes her tack vs Yellow.
Created: 21-Aug-20 12:12
Thomas Armstrong
Nationality: Chile
Certifications:
Club Judge
0
1st incident - yellow tacking in front of green. -- Yellow should have protested green - green DSQ -- Red should have protested yellow - yellow is exonerated.
2nd incident - green sailing too high away from mark -- Green entered the zone 1st, so green is entitled mark room. Red could have protested green. In my view green did a good tactical move to ensure its position is preserved at mark... but this comes to the old question: how much room is enough room? From the video I would say green took too much room. But the crew seemed busy preparing the maneuver. Videos can be misleading, though. I'll leave this one to the experts.
Created: 21-Aug-20 12:35
Stewart Campbell
Nationality: Australia
0
At P1, Red is ROW over Green and Yellow - R10. At P2 Green is ROW over Red R12 and tack was in time not to infringe R15. At P1, Green is ROW over Yellow - R11. At P1.5, Green just past htw, Yellow is ROW over Green - R13. At P2, Green is ROW over Yellow - R10 but was limited by R15 against Yellow who was restricted by the obstruction, the ROW boat Blue. At P2 Yellow is ROW over Red and was not limited by R15, having tacked and initially given Room to Red. At P3, Green is ROW over Red R11 and appears not to have infringed R16. Green avoids Yellow (Green limited by R15), Red avoids Green - R 11. At P4-P5 Green was ROW over Red - R11 - and was not restricted by R18 - i.e. Mark Room was irrelevant. Conclusion - Each boat reacted to the developing incident correctly according to ROW, Room and Limitations. No contact. No disqualifications. Yellow did not infringe R10 or R13.
Created: 21-Aug-20 12:53
Warren Collier
Certifications:
Umpire In Training
National Judge
Regional Race Officer
0
My take is simple Port/Starboard situation in the high winds and thus assuming higher speeds of the boats: Yellow at P2 should have already been tacking or ducking Green to avoid R10 infringement on Green. Yellow at P3 caused ROW boat Green to alter course to avoid Yellow. Therefore, Yellow broke rule 10 and would have been DSQ if protested properly.
Created: 21-Aug-20 16:04
P
Angelo Guarino
Certifications:
Regional Judge
Fleet Measurer
0
Using the drawing as the FF's ..
Conclusions:
After passing head to wind and before being on a close-hauled course, Yellow failed to keep clear of Green. Yellow broke RRS 13.
Since Yellow broke RRS 13 while she was sailing within the room to which she was entitled, she is exonerated under RRS 43.1(b) for this breach.
Decision: No boat penalized.
Created: 21-Aug-20 16:06
Warren Collier
Certifications:
Umpire In Training
National Judge
Regional Race Officer
0
Angelo, Ok with idea of RRS13, but since they are outside the circle, what room is Yellow entitled to?
Created: 21-Aug-20 16:09
Marino Dimarzo
Nationality: United States
Certifications:
Club Judge
0
Green breaks 15 since it does not allow yellow to keep clear after acquiring ROW
Yellow breaks 13 but is exonerated because of green breaking 15
Red breaks no rule
Red overlaps green from astearn when green is on starboard leeward
Therefore green can luff up under 11 and brakes no rules in doing so
Green should be DSQ under 15
18 limits 11 for green as she goes beyond taking mark room but that us a mute point
Created: 21-Aug-20 16:18
P
Angelo Guarino
Certifications:
Regional Judge
Fleet Measurer
0
Warren re: " ... what room is Yellow entitled to? "
At position 2, Green becomes ROW boat due to her own actions (she tacked). At the moment Green completes her tack at #2, she is obligated by RRS 15 to provide Yellow room to keep clear. Given the quickness of the decision, closeness of boats, tacking away was a reasonable option for Yellow to keep clear, IMO.
Green luffs and provides Yellow that room, no contact, so Green does not break RRS 15.
FWIW, given the geometry, IMO Yellow could also have held her course.
In that case, Green would have had to duck Yellow. In this alternate scenario, Yellow would have broken rule 10, but again she would be exonerated by 43.1(b) as in both cases Yellow is owed room to keep clear by Green via RRS 15. Green by altering course, abides by RRS 15 in both cases.
Created: 21-Aug-20 16:20
Marino Dimarzo
Nationality: United States
Certifications:
Club Judge
0
43.1 When as a consequence of breaking a rule... This requires green to break a rule for yellow to be exonerated. Since yellow does not keep clear (under 13), it follows that green did not initially gave green room to keep clear and broke 15. Marino
Created: 21-Aug-20 16:28
P
Angelo Guarino
Certifications:
Regional Judge
Fleet Measurer
0
Marino, I would agree when referencing 43.1(a). I am referencing 43.1(b) which does not require a "consequence of breaking a rule" .. rather a "consequence of incident" with a boat required to give her room.
Green had every right to tack, but she needed to be prepared to either luff or duck Yellow to provide Yellow room to keep clear. IMO, it was reasonable for Yellow to do either (hold her course or tack) in this instance
Created: 21-Aug-20 16:33
John Christman
Nationality: United States
Certifications:
Club Race Officer
National Judge
National Umpire
0
No rules broken, no boats penalized.
When Green tacks to stbd she is initially required to give Yellow room to keep clear per RRS 15. Yellow tacks promptly in what appears to be a seamanlike manner and Green gives her the room to do that so both boats meet their obligations. Yellow does not break either RRS 10 or 13 as Green's alteration of course is her response to her obligations under RRS 15 not Yellow's actions or lack of action. Red as windward boat keeps clear of both as she is obligated to do.
All of this happens outside of the three length zone so the mark has nothing to do with the situation.
Note that the boats are reaching into the mark so when Green completes her tack is earlier than most might think, especially if you only look at the diagram.
Created: 21-Aug-20 16:47
Marino Dimarzo
Nationality: United States
Certifications:
Club Judge
0
43.1 When as a consequence of breaking a rule... This requires green to break a rule for yellow to be exonerated. Since yellow does not keep clear because green had to take avoiding action (under 13 and definition of keep clear) It follows that green did not initially gave yellow room to keep clear and broke 15. Marino
Created: 21-Aug-20 16:47
John Thorne
Nationality: United States
Certifications:
Regional Judge
Regional Race Officer
0
It appears that both red and blue have overstood the mark. Green completed her tack to starboard, it is not clear whether she called for room to tack. In any case, it appears that yellow could have tacked to starboard below green. If so, green complied with Rule 15 and yellow failed to keep clear.
Created: 21-Aug-20 17:56
Stewart Campbell
Nationality: Australia
0
Angelo - I think you are saying exactly the same as I did. But you are approaching the explanation by saying that Yellow DID break R13 but was exonerated. Surely Yellow did not break R13 since she tacked promptly and if Green had hit Yellow, then Green would have simply been at fault per R15? What I'm getting at, is that, if there had been a contact, then Green would have been guilty of breaking R15 without any need to exonerate Yellow? As it was, Green kept herself honest by giving Yellow room to complete her maneouver. I'm intregued by the way you are approaching the matter, but is it not simpler to call R15?
Created: 21-Aug-20 17:58
P
Angelo Guarino
Certifications:
Regional Judge
Fleet Measurer
0
Stewart and John C .. I get the way you are approaching it. That said, I believe that the preferred decision writing approach is as I wrote it .. that Yellow breaks 13 and is exonerated.
Facts Found could be:
Green tacked from port to starboard outside the zone of a mark to be rounded to port, putting her on a collision course with Yellow on port approximately 1-1/2 BL's away.
Yellow tacked from port to starboard outside the zone, starting her tack within 2 sec's of Green completing her tack
Green on starboard altered course to windward, avoiding contact with Yellow, prior to Yellow completing her tack by falling off to a close-hauled course on starboard.
IMO, Fact #3 requires the conclusion that Yellow broke RRS 13. Then we exonerate her under 43.1(b) using Fact #1-#2 as she was sailing within the RRS 15 'room to keep clear' that she was entitled to.
Ang
Created: 21-Aug-20 18:17
John Christman
Nationality: United States
Certifications:
Club Race Officer
National Judge
National Umpire
1
I think you make things more complicated by thinking that Yellow breaks rules and is exonerated and then have to worry about which rules were broken to justify the exoneration.
It is much, much simpler than that. Yellow is required to keep clear of Green starting at the moment Green competes her tack. Green is initially required to give Yellow the room to keep clear. Yellow tacks promptly to keep clear of Green and Green gives her the room she needs to do that. Both boats meet their obligations and so no rules are broken.
Had Yellow been forced to do something unseamanlike then Green did not meet her obligation to initially give Yellow the room to keep clear and broke 15.
Had Yellow delayed her tack or done nothing then she did not take advantage of the room Green was initially required to give and broke either 10 or 13.
Another situation that fits in this same category would be if Green tacked and ducked Yellow because Yellow's only option was to continue going straight.
Created: 21-Aug-20 18:18
John Christman
Nationality: United States
Certifications:
Club Race Officer
National Judge
National Umpire
0
Angelo - the problem with your approach is that you are then forced to find that Green broke a rule and penalize her in order to exonerate Yellow. It does not allow for the decision that no boat broke a rule which I think is the correct one here.
Created: 21-Aug-20 18:23
P
Angelo Guarino
Certifications:
Regional Judge
Fleet Measurer
0
John,
43.1(b) When a boat is sailing within the room or mark-room to which she is entitled and, as a consequence of an incident with a boat required to give her that room or mark-room, she breaks a rule of Section A of Part 2, rule 15, 16, or 31, she is exonerated for her breach.
Yellow, a boat sailing within room to which she is entitled to, breaks 13, as a consequence of an incident with Green required to give her room under RRS 15. Yellow is exonerated for her breach.
Note: Green does not have to break a rule for Yellow to be exonerated under 43.1(b) .. Yellow's breach only has to be the "... consequence of an incident with a boat required to give her room .. "
Created: 21-Aug-20 18:31
Bob Scott
Nationality: United States
Certifications:
Judge In Training
0
@Thomas Armstrong: Under what rule would Yellow have protested Green in incident 1?
At the risk of being a newbie and getting slapped, here's how I see things.
Incident 1: Outside the Zone - @ Pos 2, Green (on starboard) was close hauled and fetching the mark. Red, also on starboard andclose hauled was clear astern and to windward of Green. - @ Pos 3 Red has overtaken Green from clear astern and to windward and is the keep clear boat relative to Green. Yellow is tacking to port but has not reached close hauled at Pos 3 and Green must luff to avoid collision. Yellow breaks RRS 10 and would be DSQed in a protest. Since she has not passed close hauled, RRS 13 is not in play. - Also at Pos 3, Red luffs to avoid Green. Since Green was already on Starboard and the leeward boat, and Red had time to keep clear, there is no foul between Green and Red.
Incident 2: At/Inside the Zone - Between Pos 3 and Pos 4, Yellow, Green and Red entered the Zone overlapped with each other, with Green to leeward of Red. - Red, the outside overlapped boat owed Green mark room (RRS18.2a & b) - While not disclosed in the write up, the video seemed to suggest that the next mark was not DDW from the windward mark. Blue's course seems to suggest the same. - As such, Green's proper course may not have been to sail close to the mark and there is no foul.
Ready go!
Created: 21-Aug-20 22:24
P
Angelo Guarino
Certifications:
Regional Judge
Fleet Measurer
0
Robert … thanks for posting. It’s apparent by your post you are trying to learn and asking for feedback. We will all hope that occurs without contact or physical damage (cheesy RRS pun).
One of the challenges is that we don’t have a protest between boats here, which would help focus our attention. We’ve been operating under the premise that there is a protest between Green and Yellow to sort out. If that was the case, stuff concerning Red and Blue likely wouldn’t be mentioned.
Let’s look at what you wrote (comments inline) .. and using only the drawing as PC endorsed.
Incident 1: Outside the Zone - @ Pos 2, Green (on starboard) was close hauled and fetching the mark. Red, also on starboard andclose hauled was clear astern and to windward of Green.
Key fact missing here is: Green tacks from port to starboard, completing her tack just over a BL from Yellow and on a collision course.
During her tack, Green goes from keep clear (13) to ROW (10) and is required to initially give Yellow room to keep clear (15).
- @ Pos 3 Red has overtaken Green from clear astern and to windward and is the keep clear boat relative to Green. (That’s fine)
Yellow is tacking to port but has not reached close hauled at Pos 3 and Green must luff to avoid collision.
This fact is not supported by the drawing (or the video). If this was a FF, the drawing should have a position showing it. Based on the drawing we can only say that:
Yellow tacked from port to starboard.
Green altered course to avoid Yellow before Yellow reached a close-hauled course on starboard.
Yellow breaks RRS 10 and would be DSQed in a protest.
Again, 10 is not supported by the drawing. It will be 13. Because you missed the first fact (that Green tacked and is obligated to give room under 15), you are coming to the wrong conclusion regarding DSQ.
Yellow is operating under room she is entitled to. She would be exonerated for breaking RRS 13 (or 10) by 43.1(b)
Since she has not passed close hauled, RRS 13 is not in play.
See above
- Also at Pos 3, Red luffs to avoid Green. Since Green was already on Starboard and the leeward boat, and Red had time to keep clear, there is no foul between Green and Red.
OK.
Incident 2: At/Inside the Zone - Between Pos 3 and Pos 4, Yellow, Green and Red entered the Zone overlapped with each other, with Green to leeward of Red.
Yes. Often when dealing with 3 boats overlapped at a mark or obstruction, it’s helpful to use inside/middle/outside as it paints a clear pic in the mind.
- Red, the outside overlapped boat owed Green mark room (RRS18.2a & b)
Last phrase of 18.2(a) makes (a) and (b) mutually exclusive. In this case it is 18.2(b).
- While not disclosed in the write up, the video seemed to suggest that the next mark was not DDW from the windward mark. Blue's course seems to suggest the same. - As such, Green's proper course may not have been to sail close to the mark and there is no foul.
There is no rule in play which references “proper course”. Green is ROW and has no obligation to turn down. Green could harden up and sail on a close-hauled course or even luff HTW as long as she abided by RRS 16.1.
Hope that helps.
Created: 21-Aug-21 12:29
Richard Jones
Nationality: United Kingdom
0
Hi Robert, even if Yellow broke a rule with Red here she would be exonerated by R43.1b as she is sailing within room owed to her by Green under R15. Room is a defined term:
Room The space a boat needs in the existing conditions, including space to comply with her obligations under the rules of Part 2 and rule 31, while manoeuvring promptly in a seamanlike way.
Notice that it includes space to comply with her obligations under the rules of Part 2 and rule 31. That includes her obligations to all other boats as well including red.
In this situation, Yellow has to act in an appropriate way. If it was reasonably possible to duck Green after Green completed her tack acquiring ROW without having to force Green to luff to avoid her, she should have done so. In that case by choosing to tack and break a rule when the ducking option without breaking a rule was available, you could conclude that Yellow should not be exonerated.
Again also being a Newbie, I hope I got that right.
Created: 21-Aug-21 13:05
Marino Dimarzo
Nationality: United States
Certifications:
Club Judge
0
I like the idea of keeping it all under R15 as John proposes and found no rule broken except some discomfort in that the aggressive move of green has caused some congestion at the mark rounding and rules lend a good hand in discouraging such occurrence. Had this happened in the middle of a leg, I find that John solution is quite satisfactory. Lately I am developing an allergy on port tacker approaching weather marks especially in large fleets....
-- Yellow should have protested green - green DSQ
-- Red should have protested yellow - yellow is exonerated.
2nd incident - green sailing too high away from mark
-- Green entered the zone 1st, so green is entitled mark room. Red could have protested green.
In my view green did a good tactical move to ensure its position is preserved at mark... but this comes to the old question: how much room is enough room? From the video I would say green took too much room. But the crew seemed busy preparing the maneuver. Videos can be misleading, though. I'll leave this one to the experts.
At P1, Green is ROW over Yellow - R11. At P1.5, Green just past htw, Yellow is ROW over Green - R13. At P2, Green is ROW over Yellow - R10 but was limited by R15 against Yellow who was restricted by the obstruction, the ROW boat Blue.
At P2 Yellow is ROW over Red and was not limited by R15, having tacked and initially given Room to Red. At P3, Green is ROW over Red R11 and appears not to have infringed R16. Green avoids Yellow (Green limited by R15), Red avoids Green - R 11.
At P4-P5 Green was ROW over Red - R11 - and was not restricted by R18 - i.e. Mark Room was irrelevant.
Conclusion - Each boat reacted to the developing incident correctly according to ROW, Room and Limitations. No contact. No disqualifications. Yellow did not infringe R10 or R13.
Yellow at P2 should have already been tacking or ducking Green to avoid R10 infringement on Green.
Yellow at P3 caused ROW boat Green to alter course to avoid Yellow. Therefore, Yellow broke rule 10 and would have been DSQ if protested properly.
Conclusions:
Decision: No boat penalized.
At position 2, Green becomes ROW boat due to her own actions (she tacked). At the moment Green completes her tack at #2, she is obligated by RRS 15 to provide Yellow room to keep clear. Given the quickness of the decision, closeness of boats, tacking away was a reasonable option for Yellow to keep clear, IMO.
Green luffs and provides Yellow that room, no contact, so Green does not break RRS 15.
FWIW, given the geometry, IMO Yellow could also have held her course.
In that case, Green would have had to duck Yellow. In this alternate scenario, Yellow would have broken rule 10, but again she would be exonerated by 43.1(b) as in both cases Yellow is owed room to keep clear by Green via RRS 15. Green by altering course, abides by RRS 15 in both cases.
This requires green to break a rule for yellow to be exonerated.
Since yellow does not keep clear (under 13), it follows that green did not initially gave green room to keep clear and broke 15.
Marino
Green had every right to tack, but she needed to be prepared to either luff or duck Yellow to provide Yellow room to keep clear. IMO, it was reasonable for Yellow to do either (hold her course or tack) in this instance
When Green tacks to stbd she is initially required to give Yellow room to keep clear per RRS 15. Yellow tacks promptly in what appears to be a seamanlike manner and Green gives her the room to do that so both boats meet their obligations. Yellow does not break either RRS 10 or 13 as Green's alteration of course is her response to her obligations under RRS 15 not Yellow's actions or lack of action. Red as windward boat keeps clear of both as she is obligated to do.
All of this happens outside of the three length zone so the mark has nothing to do with the situation.
Note that the boats are reaching into the mark so when Green completes her tack is earlier than most might think, especially if you only look at the diagram.
This requires green to break a rule for yellow to be exonerated.
Since yellow does not keep clear because green had to take avoiding action (under 13 and definition of keep clear)
It follows that green did not initially gave yellow room to keep clear and broke 15.
Marino
Facts Found could be:
IMO, Fact #3 requires the conclusion that Yellow broke RRS 13. Then we exonerate her under 43.1(b) using Fact #1-#2 as she was sailing within the RRS 15 'room to keep clear' that she was entitled to.
Ang
It is much, much simpler than that. Yellow is required to keep clear of Green starting at the moment Green competes her tack. Green is initially required to give Yellow the room to keep clear. Yellow tacks promptly to keep clear of Green and Green gives her the room she needs to do that. Both boats meet their obligations and so no rules are broken.
Had Yellow been forced to do something unseamanlike then Green did not meet her obligation to initially give Yellow the room to keep clear and broke 15.
Had Yellow delayed her tack or done nothing then she did not take advantage of the room Green was initially required to give and broke either 10 or 13.
Another situation that fits in this same category would be if Green tacked and ducked Yellow because Yellow's only option was to continue going straight.
Yellow, a boat sailing within room to which she is entitled to, breaks 13, as a consequence of an incident with Green required to give her room under RRS 15. Yellow is exonerated for her breach.
Note: Green does not have to break a rule for Yellow to be exonerated under 43.1(b) .. Yellow's breach only has to be the "... consequence of an incident with a boat required to give her room .. "
At the risk of being a newbie and getting slapped, here's how I see things.
Incident 1: Outside the Zone
- @ Pos 2, Green (on starboard) was close hauled and fetching the mark. Red, also on starboard andclose hauled was clear astern and to windward of Green.
- @ Pos 3 Red has overtaken Green from clear astern and to windward and is the keep clear boat relative to Green. Yellow is tacking to port but has not reached close hauled at Pos 3 and Green must luff to avoid collision. Yellow breaks RRS 10 and would be DSQed in a protest. Since she has not passed close hauled, RRS 13 is not in play.
- Also at Pos 3, Red luffs to avoid Green. Since Green was already on Starboard and the leeward boat, and Red had time to keep clear, there is no foul between Green and Red.
Incident 2: At/Inside the Zone
- Between Pos 3 and Pos 4, Yellow, Green and Red entered the Zone overlapped with each other, with Green to leeward of Red.
- Red, the outside overlapped boat owed Green mark room (RRS18.2a & b)
- While not disclosed in the write up, the video seemed to suggest that the next mark was not DDW from the windward mark. Blue's course seems to suggest the same.
- As such, Green's proper course may not have been to sail close to the mark and there is no foul.
Ready go!
One of the challenges is that we don’t have a protest between boats here, which would help focus our attention. We’ve been operating under the premise that there is a protest between Green and Yellow to sort out. If that was the case, stuff concerning Red and Blue likely wouldn’t be mentioned.
Let’s look at what you wrote (comments inline) .. and using only the drawing as PC endorsed.
Key fact missing here is:
Green tacks from port to starboard, completing her tack just over a BL from Yellow and on a collision course.
During her tack, Green goes from keep clear (13) to ROW (10) and is required to initially give Yellow room to keep clear (15).
This fact is not supported by the drawing (or the video). If this was a FF, the drawing should have a position showing it. Based on the drawing we can only say that:
Again, 10 is not supported by the drawing. It will be 13. Because you missed the first fact (that Green tacked and is obligated to give room under 15), you are coming to the wrong conclusion regarding DSQ.
Yellow is operating under room she is entitled to. She would be exonerated for breaking RRS 13 (or 10) by 43.1(b)
See above
OK.
Yes. Often when dealing with 3 boats overlapped at a mark or obstruction, it’s helpful to use inside/middle/outside as it paints a clear pic in the mind.
Last phrase of 18.2(a) makes (a) and (b) mutually exclusive. In this case it is 18.2(b).
There is no rule in play which references “proper course”. Green is ROW and has no obligation to turn down. Green could harden up and sail on a close-hauled course or even luff HTW as long as she abided by RRS 16.1.
Hope that helps.
Room is a defined term:
Room The space a boat needs in the existing conditions, including space to comply with her obligations under the rules of Part 2 and rule 31, while manoeuvring promptly in a seamanlike way.
Notice that it includes space to comply with her obligations under the rules of Part 2 and rule 31. That includes her obligations to all other boats as well including red.
In this situation, Yellow has to act in an appropriate way. If it was reasonably possible to duck Green after Green completed her tack acquiring ROW without having to force Green to luff to avoid her, she should have done so. In that case by choosing to tack and break a rule when the ducking option without breaking a rule was available, you could conclude that Yellow should not be exonerated.
Again also being a Newbie, I hope I got that right.