Greg
Is this not a rule 11 situation? W must keep clear of L and L must keep clear of S. If I was L I would continue trying to luff and shouting LEWARD at W. At the speed of "luffing on a line" there would be no excuse for contact. W is the one that is preventing L keeping clear of S, but L must come close and demand space to luff.

Thanks for the reply Lloyd.
I'm saying that Boat W is keeping clear of Boat L the entire time Boat L is on a tack. However, after attempting to keep clear by luffing, it become clear that Boat L must tack to keep clear of S (maybe S can hold her position on the line better than Boat L). Once Boat L tacks, they foul Boat W. Boat W is keeping clear the entire time Boat L is on a tack, but after Boat L passes head to wind, Boat W is fouled.

Is this just Boat L's penalty, or can this somehow get traced back to Boat S for Rule 15 or 16?

Basic "barging" situation? W might as well go over the line and round an end? Then L needs to be careful S doesn't push him up as well? L keeps calling leeward until W falls off, S keeps calling leeward at L until she can keep clear or starting signal goes off. Best case there is enough room to the line, and no other boats, so W can just tack away and L can follow

L must luff all the way to head to wind even if it means she loses way and ends up in irons. S can luff all the eay to head to wind as there is no proper course limitation before the start but S cannot go any higher than head to wind otherwise she has tacked onto port but not completed to close hauled and would have no rights over L L cannot tack onto port and foul W who has continued to keep clear on starboard tack. Note that head to wind is theoretically exactly the same direction for S and L and they would end up parallel. S is presumable using her greater speed at the start of the overlap which gives her greater momentum to force L to irons and create a big hole to leeward of S so she can reach away. L has been unlucky!

Greg,
When L goes head to wind because S has luffed head to wind AND there is no room to tack and stay clear of W, then L can stay head to wind until she is in irons and shout protest to W, and fall off to start a bit later. This will be a protest that she can win but S has gained on L. She can call the committee boat as witnesses.

I do not see a way that she can control W any better.

With 30 seconds and with standard start with an uncrowded line they may can start early and do a restart in 30 seconds.

I do not accept the premise that boat L has to tack. S can sail no higher than head to wind without breaking rule 13 so L only has to sail head to wind to avoid her. It may be desirable for L to tack but she does not have to do so. If, in order to meet her obligations under rule 11 L has to luff head to wind and if this means that she stalls and falls backwards that is just the way it goes. If L tacks she breaks rule 13.

For anyone who has been on a Laser with a stack of windward boats piling up on top of you, it might make sense to look from a different perspective. S gets the leeward overlap, After "initially" she becomes under RSS16 as she continues to luff. There is a crucial difference between 15 and 16: 15 terminates after "initially", while 16 mandates a continuous obligation to give room. The definition of room requires "space a boat needs,... to comply with her obligations under ...part 2..., while manoeuvring promptly". Looking windward, L can only go up close to head to wind (to tack would require a lot of space so her stern would not touch S), L "in existing conditions" can only fulfill its obligations under 16 towards W (and so on for the rest of the windward fleet) if given space by S. S has to hold her horses, and that is what you see on the starting line.

I believe Bruno has it right. S has an ongoing obligation under RRS 16 to give L room to keep clear, and room includes "...space to comply with her obligations under the rules of Part 2...". Those obligations include not breaking RRS 16, 13, or 10, so S must give L room to give W room in turn (under 16), and also room not to tack while tacking would cause her to break 13 or 10. L must maneuver promptly to keep clear of S up to head to wind, but not so quickly that she doesn't give W room to keep clear in turn (16), and not beyond head to wind until she can do so without fouling W (13 and then 10).

If L is found to have acted as promptly as she could to avoid S and S either forced L to tack or made contact with her while L's luff or tack would break a rule, S would break both RRS 16 and 14, but would only be penalized for breaking 14 if there was damage (a distinction without practical effect in this case, as she can only be disqualified once). In the event that S's luff forced L to make contact with W, L would break whichever rule applied at the time (first 16, then 13, then 10), but would be exonerated under 21a.

Bill H ..

If, in order to meet her obligations under rule 11 L has to luff head to wind and if this means that she stalls and falls backwards that is just the way it goes.

I was reading in the scenario from OP .. " however, after a moment it becomes apparent that the only way L can continue to keep clear of boat S is to tack. Unfortunately, if Boat L tacks off, they will foul Boat W." that being dead in the water and HTW that L must fall off one way or the other to maintain/regain control of the boat's orientation.

Also isn't there a new WS interpretation for anti-crabbing at the start-line? (can't seem to put my fingers on it). S will need to be careful that they don't cross that line.

Ang

Angelo,

Try Match Race Call B9
Rule 11; On the same Tack, Overlapped
Rule 16.1; Changing Course
A boat that begins crabbing to windward is changing course and must initially give room to a windward boat under 16.1.

I don't think it helps much, and 'initially give room' is never part of rule 16.

The facts could be expanded to make clear whether S was crabbing but as she "sails into a leeward overlap" as opposed to "crabs into" or "sails astern into" I assume she has come from clear astern with more speed and so can get to head to wind and shoot towards the line while L has little momentum and will simply stall into irons. The complicating factor could be that S's momentum is creating her own apparent wind allowing her turn (her luff) to take her past the head to wind point of the slower moving L without S's boom changing sides. I also would expect that if S were breaking 22.3 by crabbing or sailing astern and interfering with annother boat sailing forward it would be stated so in the scenario.

The issue here is common in multi class/design fleets where one boat that can point higher and moves more easily and becomes S in the current scenario alongside a heavier, slower boat with less ability to point who is basically at the mercy of S. Depending on the distance from the line and S's objectives, L can easily be forced into irons without S breaking a rule.

There are some circumstances when Greg's scenario would occur in practice - when S can force L to tack as opposed to just luffing up to head to wind. One instance would be when other boats are clear ahead, sitting on the start line, and L will need to tack to avoid both S (luffing her) and those other boats. I understand Greg's question to be, if L is forced to tack (for whatever reason) will she be forced to break a rule? Is she in a catch-22 situation?

The answer is that L can avoid breaking a rule by sailing close hauled (if she is not doing so already) and then hailing W for room to tack, under Rule 20. S and any clear ahead boats will be obstructions. If she needs to make a substantial change of course to avoid them (as would be the case if she needs to tack) then Rule 20 will be available to her. She will need to do that promptly because the further she sails into the wind, the less substantial change of course is likely to be necessary.

However, in Bruno's scenario, on a crowded start line, when room to tack just isn't going to happen, I agree with Bruno that it comes down to S complying with Rule 16.

If any boat is crabbing they will be breaking Rule 42.

John Grace, interesting addition to scenario that prompts me to ask a few questions.
Isn't L obliged to let off sails as a measure which might allow her to avoid breaking any rules and still keep clear of the boats ahead? And to push boom to backwind main to slow if needs be?
Why is L obliged to tack?
Aren't the boats clear ahead an obstruction? (see defn of obstruction?)
Can't L claim room to pass them on the same side as S? (RRS 19.2)
Cant L oblige S to give room under 1.1 if otherwise S forces L into danger of collision? Or under 2 - Fair sailing?
Can L choose which to hit if collision is otherwise inevitable and if so isn't a graze from S preferable to a more angled hit to or from W? Will she have more chance of exoneration depending on which boat she hits?

Paul. I was assuming that L needed to tack because that was Greg's scenario, and I gave one example to show that the scenario could possibly occur in practice. My point was that if L needed to tack to avoid S (and any other boats she needs to keep clear of) she can rely on Rule 20 if the conditions in Rule 20.1 are met.

This is probably just an opinion, but L should not lose her ability to rely on Rule 20 just because she could also slow down by backing the sail, or using some other kinetic method of stopping. That would defeat the purpose of the rule. In the casebook, boats are entitled to rely on Rule 20 in situations where no effort was made to back the sail or slow down by other kinetic means.

You made a good point about Rule 19.2, but that rule would only apply once S started passing the boats that were initially clear ahead. It would not apply if S remained behind them.

If S luffed L so that a collision was inevitable, then we go back to Bruno's point, that S would have broken Rule 16. She could have also broken Rule 2, as you say. However, if a collision could be avoided by L tacking, then she should invoke Rule 20.

Thanks John,
I get it now. If CA is clear ahead of L and directly in front of L then CA is an obstruction. If L is on a close hauled course she can hail for room to tack. W would likely then have to tack away too to give room. There could be other boats stacked to windward given it is a starting line. The time to pass the hails and for each boat to respond may make it impracticable but maybe not. I can see how this could develop if a few boats are in the second row of a start and coming up to the line at greater speed than those who are in the first row but early and so slow.