Forum: The Racing Rules of Sailing
Rule 28.2 - Definition of FINISH
Roland Dano
Nationality: France
Certifications:
- National Race Officer
0
A boat crosses the finish line.
He realizes that he passed the last mark on the wrong side.
He goes back and passes the last mark correctly.
Then he crosses the Finish Line.
In accordance with the rule 28.2, can we score it (at the second cross)?
Thanks for your help.
He realizes that he passed the last mark on the wrong side.
He goes back and passes the last mark correctly.
Then he crosses the Finish Line.
In accordance with the rule 28.2, can we score it (at the second cross)?
Thanks for your help.
Comments
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If the boat started and crossed the finish line from the course side, you must as per the definitions of "Finish" & "Sail the Course" and RRS A5.2 score the boat NSC.
Ready, GO!
A boat may unwind their mistake and correct it, so their course is on the correct side of each mark (the 'string rule'). They then should be scored when they cross the finish line. See definition Sail the Course.
Definition
Sail the Course A boat sails the course provided that a string representing her track from the time she begins to approach the starting line from its pre-start side to start until she finishes, when drawn taut,
(a)
passes each mark of the course for the race on the required side and in the correct order,
(b)
touches each mark designated in the sailing instructions to be a rounding mark, and
(c)
passes between the marks of a gate from the direction of the course from the previous mark.
Wayne
Hence the finish line mark does not bound that leg of the course and has no required side. It does not need be unwound.
Yes, See definition of Finish. There is no requirement for a boat to sail the course to finish. As none of the exceptions in the definition apply the boat finishes when she first crosses the finish line.
I think I'd tend toward recording the first finish (and score NSC). I don't see why the boat would cross the finish line the first time if she was not doing so "to finish". If she realized after crossing the line to finish that she failed to sail the course I think that's too late for her to correct her error per rule 28.2.
Having added continues to sail the course to the list of exceptions, there now seems to be an argument to be made that a boat is continuing to sail the course by going back to correct her error in sailing the course. WS Case 112 question 1 and 2 seem to address that issue.
CASE 112
Definitions, Sail the Course CASE 90 When a boat’s string passes a mark on the required side, she does not break rule 28.2 if her string, when drawn taut, also passes that mark on the nonrequired side.
Barring that, did the boat violate a restricted area where they sailed?
If this is not the case, then I would have to agree with the second time the boat went across the finish line is the only time they actually finished.
Brent, re: " spinnaker issue at a leeward gate above the finish line and go through the finish would you consider this finishing and score them NSC? "
That's not what Case 90 implies or says. For an object to be a Mark, it must have a required side on the leg in question (see def: Mark)... otherwise such an object does not meet the definition of a mark.
What Case 90 is saying is that, as long as you eventually pass each mark on its required side in the required order, it doesn't matter if you pass those marks also on the opposite side out of order.
For instance .. course is set for Start, M1, M2, M3, Finish, with all Marks passed to port.
This boat starts, sails-the-course and finishes properly IMO.
PS: Note at positions 11-13, that by the time Orange clears BOTH the line and the mark, she was already engaged in “sailing the course”.
I don’t know that I would come to the same conclusion if she crossed in the middle of the line and sailed clear of it for a few boat lengths. In this middle-of-line case, she would seem to clearly have reached a state of “not racing”. (See US16, US26, Case 127).
Consider the drawing below. Yellow sails the course normally and properly. Blue sails a little longer on the port tack before tacking for the final Mark - but in the process crosses the Finish Line. Surely Blue would not be scored NSC?
Boat must take the penalty, if one is available.
What I was saying is that, when you combine …
… an object that is defined as a Mark in the SI but doesn’t begin, bound or end the leg the boat is sailing on, is basically reduced back to a simple object.
As Stewart points out too, marks can be named more than once in the course, with different sides on different legs … or often I’ve seen SI’s define Gov’t marks as “boundary/passing” marks indicating that boats shall pass them “on the channel side”.
It is worth acknowledging that, when SI’s use this “channel side” language, we flip the reference to what “side” refers.
Normally, we refer to a boat passing a mark on the port or starboard side, which refers to the “side” of the boat. When using “channel side” the word “side” is now referring to the side of the mark and not the boat.
This could be confusing to racers when determining whether 18 applies between boats sailing in opposite directions on different legs. Rule 18 states, “Rule 18 applies between boats when they are required to leave a mark on the same side”
A competitor could get confused that 18 applies by thinking they are both leaving the mark on the “same side” since both boats are passing the mark on the “channel side” as indicated in the SI’s, when actually they are required to pass this mark on opposite sides (one port, one starboard).
Why, then, does Rule 31 say "a mark that begins, bounds or ends the leg"? It would be enough to write just "a mark".
Also note that the Definition says not only about "An object the sailing instructions require a boat to leave on a specified side" but also (after the comma!) about "a race committee vessel ...".
… just waiting for someone to work this into the “Mr Ed” theme song :-) (Man, I’m really dating myself now!).
"A Mark is a Mark of the course of course
And no one can hit a Mark of course.
That is of course unless the Mark
Is another leg's Mark instead!"
First race of the day. The leader, green, did not do a good job remembering the Sailing Instructions requiring boats to leave the leeward mark, Mark 2, to port on the last leg before finishing. As green crosses the finish line at position 3, her skipper expects a sound signal for line honors (sound signals are not required by the rules, but it is the tradition at this regatta). There is no sound signal. Green clears the line, her skipper puzzled. A few moments later Blue crosses the finish line and receives a sound signal. A light bulb goes off in the green laser skipper's head "Holy cow, I should have left the leeward mark to port". Green heads back up the course, leaves the windward mark to port, and crosses the finish line ahead of 2/3rds of the fleet.
What is Green's status in the race?
If it had been a leeward mark followed by a windward finish, she would have to unwind and round to port before proceeding.
Contrast that with Stewart's earlier diagram (passing over that I don't think any sane RC would set a course like that...) - if Blue knew at position 3 that she still had to tack and round the last mark then she did not at that point cross the finish line to finish, she knew that she would still continue to sail the course and finish at position 17. But if she thought she was finishing at 4 and had an "oh crap" moment when she saw Yellow tack for the last mark, Blue has crossed the finish line to finish and can no longer correct her error.
I don't really like that conclusion as it requires a certain amount of mind-reading, but otherwise I'm not sure that 28.2 has any use. Seems to me you need some sort of demarcation between "crossed the finish line but continued to sail the course" and "cleared the finish line and no longer racing".
I have thought about 28.2 as well and can only come up with leaving a finish mark on the wrong side. I have seen that only once just this year. A mark vessel had a blue RC Flag displayed and was hanging around the pin end the the finish line. Several boats passed between the mark vessel and the pin. It is a good case for Yellow RC flags for mark vessels.
Case 112 Setup: The boat crosses the finish-line and “returns to the harbor” (apparently not seen again on the race course). Clearly in this circumstance, the boat didn’t continue racing.
Case 112 Answer 1 states that, “[…] Because A did not continue to sail the course after crossing the finishing line, she finished in accordance with the definition at the time she crossed the line (see definition Finish (c)).
Answer 1 does not state that Boat A could not continue to sail the course. Using the words “because” and “did not”, Case 112 seems to hinge its determination upon A’s actions “after crossing the finish line” (returning to the harbor).
I could argue that this seems to leave open the possibility of a different outcome based upon A’s actions after crossing the finish-line.
Def Finish: […] However, she has not finished if after crossing the finishing line she (2) [corrects an error in sailing the course made at the line],
an error under rule 28.2made at the line[correction after Peter’s comment below].If a boat was generally able to correct a
28.2[‘sail the course’] error after crossing the finishing line, “made at the line” would be unnecessary.Also, for those who would argue that a momentary pause is acceptable, consider whether that boat could be DSQ’d if they were validly protested and found to break a rule of Part 2 immediately after or at the end of their “pause” while attempting to correct her 28.2 error (assuming no injury or damage).
This would suggest that there is no real limit on making corrections...
By Appendix E rule, Appointed Observers and Umpires who make racecourse calls are limited to the same viewing positions as racers, i.e., in the Control Area.
However, the Race Committee is not limited to that area by any rule.
At Stewart's race venue there is probably a geographic limitation.
From Merriam-Webster… “Continue”
Definition of continue
“The boat continued downstream.”
“The tradition continues to this day.”
“We cannot continue here much longer.”
“We'll continue after lunch.”
”continues walking”
“continue the battle” .. also : to resume after intermission
I think Case 127 may make it hard to argue that any sort of "pause" is acceptable (emphasis added below).
Question: Once a boat is no longer in a state of racing, what rule provides the ability to retroactively change a boat from 'not-racing' to 'racing' based upon some future action by the boat? I can't find one.
If we look at Case 127 (as well as and in the US) I'd argue that they lead us to a specific time to determine whether or not a boat 'continues to sail the course', which is the moment as Case 127 describes it; "... [when the boat] crosses the finishing line, and sails to a position at which no finishing mark is influencing her choice of course".
At that specific moment, we ask the question: "Is the boat continuing to "sail the course?".
If we were to apply this test to the OP and examples provided on this thread, I'd like to suggest the following (and please pipe-up if you disagree and why).
e[ing] to sail the course"? If we think this test is valid and we say she is sailing the course at 13, then we'd say score Orange at her 2nd crossing position.Using a Case Answer to a specific question and turning it around to use on an entirely different question does not fly for me.
RRS Study Version 2013-2016
Submission 151-11
Proposal 1
28.1 A boat shall start, leave each mark on the required side in the correct order, and finish,
so that a string representing her track after starting and until finishing would when
drawn taut
(a) pass each mark on the required side,
(b) touch each rounding mark, and
(c) pass between the marks of a gate from the direction of the previous mark.
She may correct any errors to comply with this rule, provided she has not already
finished. After finishing she need not cross the finishing line completely.
Current Position, As above.
Reasons for Proposal 1
In the 2001-2004 rules, the sentence in rule 28.1 about correcting errors read as follows, “She may correct
any errors to comply with this rule, provided she has not already finished.” That sentence was changed in
2005 by deleting the phrase “provided she has not already finished.”
The proposal restores the phrase that was deleted in 2005. Since then there has frequently been debate,
even among rules experts, as to when a boat is not longer permitted to correct an error she made under
rule 28.1 while sailing the course. Clearly, there ought to be a specified time after which a boat may no
longer correct such an error. That time was clearly stated in rule 28.1 prior to 2005. Therefore, to remove
the confusion about when an error may be corrected, this proposal reinstates the phrase that was used in
rule 28.1 prior to 2005.
The reason for deleting the phrase in 2005 was that a boat could inadvertently cross the finishing line, for
example, after rounding the leeward mark on the second leg of a four-leg course. If she did, she would be
recorded as having finished. Furthermore, if she then completed the course and crossed the finishing line
a second time, she would not be scored in the finishing place she was in at the time of her ‘second finish’.
If the companion submission to change the definition Finish is approved, such a boat would be scored in
the finishing position she was in at the time of her ‘second finish’.
More coming..
RRS Study Version 2013-2016
Submission 251-11
Proposal 3
Finish A boat finishes when any part of her hull, or crew or equipment in normal position,
crosses the finishing line in the direction of the course from the last mark. However, she has not
finished if after crossing the finishing line she
(a) takes a penalty under rule 44.2, or
(b) corrects an error under rule 28.1 made at the line.
REMOVE - either for the first time or after taking a penalty under rule 44.2 or, after correcting an error
made at the finishing line, under rule 28.1.
Current Position, As above.
Reasons for Proposal 3
The current definition’s use of “either . . . or . . .” in one long sentence results in a definition that
is ambiguous and that can be interpreted to mean something very different from its intended
meaning. It is not at all clear that, after crossing the finishing line when a boat takes a penalty
under rule 44.2 or corrects an error under rule 28.1 made at the line, her first crossing of the line
does not “count” as her finish, and she has not finished until she crosses the line in the correct
direction a second time after taking her penalty or correcting her error. The proposal makes it
easy for the reader to see that, as intended, such a boat does not finish until she crosses the line a
second time. Also, breaking the current definition’s one long sentence into two sentences makes
the definition easier to read.
Sailing World November 1, 2001
Dick Rose Article
"In the diagram, the last mark of the course is a leeward mark, set south of the finish line. The pin end of the line has dragged downwind, but in order to finish in compliance with the definition, boats are required to finish by crossing the line in an upwind or northwesterly direction because that is the most direct course from the leeward mark. Between positions 1 and 2, Fran crosses the line in the wrong direction. The race committee does not give her a finishing signal and, at position 2, she realizes her error. Now, she has two problems–she has not finished and she has broken Rule 28.1 because the string representing her wake is now on the wrong side of the pin end of the finish line. To correct both errors, she must sail back across the line (position 3), circle the pin end, leaving it to port, and finish by crossing the line in a northwesterly direction (position 4).
Under the old definition of finish, she could not have corrected her error because at position 3 she would have finished, but she would have still been in violation of Rule 28.1. Under the new definition of finish, a boat may correct her Rule 28.1 error before finishing and will not be recorded as having finished until she’s done so."
Based upon all that I have read, I do not think there is any correcting sailing the course after finishing unless the error was made at the finish line.
Great conversation.
I don't agree that according to the Finish definition Orange should have been scored on her 2nd crossing. If this is correct, why would the definition of finish contain "(b) corrects an error in sailing the course made at the line, or;"? Anyway, let agree to disagree, but I'll submit a World Sailing Q& A regarding this example. They should be able to settle this for all of us.
I would agree with your second crossing score if the boat made contact with the pin at position 11. In that case the boat would have been finished at position 11, but she would not have finished at position 14 and can correct her "Sailing the Course" error which she did. At position 14 she took the penalty (RRS 44.2) for contact with the pin.
Angelo's reference to Case 127 deals with a question of clearing the finish line and its marks, not finishing or sailing the course.
Yea .. I'm not completely convinced on the Orange one either .. it was just an attempt at a consistent application such that Case 127 and 112 both work simultaneously.
Jerry .. your Dick Rose example and the 2013-2016 submission, both have to do with a sailing-the-course error made at the finish-line, which is a different finish exception. The finish exception we are focused on is "continues to sail the course".
"continues to sail the course"
Mark Townsend correctly pointed out that continues to sail the course was added to the definition of finish to account for courses that require a boat to pass through the start/finish line multiple times, a mid course start/finish line for example. I don't know why these marks were not identified as a gate unless on the last leg of the course in the sailing instructions. The clause, (c) continues to sail the course, was added to the definition of Finish in the 2013-2016 RRS, and has been a point of confusion since. Submission 251-11 contains the following:
“Many race committees set a course that requires boats to sail two or more laps, with the added requirement that they cross the finishing line at the end of each lap. This course is frequently used for informal local races. Technically speaking, under the current definition, the boats “finish” at the end of the first lap, but obviously that is not what is intended when such a course is used. The same issue can arise when other types of courses are used. As Q&A E7 (Q&A 2009-026) shows, there are situations when a boat inadvertently crosses the finishing line in the direction of the course from the last mark well before she has finished sailing the course. The addition of “continues to sail the course” to the second sentence proposed in Proposal 3 makes it clear that, if such a boat continues to sail the course after crossing the line, she has not finished.”
/////
The clause (c) continues to sail the course was recommended for removal in the current rules as follows:
Submission 139-18. The following is an excerpt from 139-18:
"Proposal 4
3 Change the definition Finish as follows:
Finish A boat finishes when, after starting and sailing the course, any part of her hull, or crew or equipment in normal position, crosses the finishing line from the course side. However, she has not finished if after crossing the finishing line she
(a) takes a penalty under rule 44.2, or
(b) corrects an error in sailing the course under rule 28.2 made at the line, or
REMOVE (c) continues to sail the course.
Clause (c) in the current definition Finish is deleted. Many readers have never understood that clause. It was introduced in 2013 to permit the use of multiple-lap courses that require boats to cross the finishing line as they begin to sail each new lap. Without clause (c), under current rules, a boat crossing the finishing line at the end of the first lap has ‘finished’ the race. Under Proposal 4, that boat does not ‘finish’ because she has not yet completely sailed the course.
The phrase ‘sail the course’ will appear in italics in each of the many places in the RRS in which it is used. That will specify exactly what that phrase means in each of those places. This will clarify the meaning of each of these rules."
/////
Indeed the draft 2021-2024 Racing Rules of Sailing published by World Sailing, I have a copy, removed the clause (c) continues to sail the course.
However, Submission 129-19, Definition of Finish, was submitted and the clause was returned:
"The reasoning behind proposal 3 of 138-18 was:
“Clause (c) in the current definition Finish is deleted. Many readers have never understood that clause. It was introduced in 2013 to permit the use of multiple-lap courses that require boats to cross the finishing line as they begin to sail each new lap. Without clause (c), under current rules, a boat crossing the finishing line at the end of the first lap has ‘finished’ the race. Under Proposal 4, that boat does not ‘finish’ because she has not yet completely sailed the course.” And “Under the current rules, if the race committee believes from its observations that a boat has made an error in sailing the course, it is required to score the boat in her finishing position and then protest her for breaking rule 28. If Proposal 4 is accepted, the committee will be permitted to score such a boat ‘ESC, thereby penalizing her without a hearing. However, the rights of the boat are protected because she may request redress if she believes she did sail the course correctly. Because the facts in most such cases will be clear and not contested, there should be a net reduction in the number of hearings.”
This reasoning is flawed in that now, if a boat has not sailed the course, it has not finished. The status of the boat is in limbo. Only be the boat’s action in this case will it be possible to try and ascertain if the boat has retired (stopped racing). This is a harder concept to understand than to determine that a boat has “continued to sail the course”.
This definition puts an onus on the race committee to monitor each boat to check if it sails the course. This is achievable in high level events but too much to ask for regattas with less staff / volunteers.
If a boat is recorded as finished, it must, by definition, have sailed the course. How can a race committee determine if any boat has finishing without knowing if it sailed the course?
This submission reinstates the clause (c) to the definition of finish. A review of race
officials and sailors in the 12 months since 138-18 has resulted in the large majority
being confused by the circular reasoning that is now in the definition."
/////
I believe best race management practices puts the onus on race committee to monitor and check each boat on a course. Not a point to point or a distance race, but a four leg windward/leeward course or similar, race committee must monitor and take mark roundings. Competitors have been known to lose their place on the course (I have experienced this myself as a competitor, long story). Mark roundings taken by race committee at the windward and leeward marks are essential. As a race officer, I was glad to have mark rounding data from both windward and leeward mark roundings along with elapsed time data to share with competitors who lost their place on the course.
How can we score a boat NSC if we don't monitor to make sure each boat sails the course?
I tried, but could not find the thread where we discussed ideas surrounding NSC and the sources of information that an RC might based that score upon. I do recall that Kim K. and John A. were involved in that thread. Maybe someone recalls the thread and can post a link here.
Scoring Boats NSC
It’s an interesting idea, but probably doesn’t hold water in the end.
Much discussion.
The SI states mark positions. Start, course and finish. The SI also states the required direction and order to round those marks.
There are three requirements to receive a score.
1) Start.
2) Sail the course (correctly), and
3) Finish.
The questions are....
1) How could she finished if she has not completed the course?
She finishes by complying with the definition "finish".
2) if the vessel that has not sailed the course, knowingly or unknowingly, intentionally or unintentionally crossed the finish line has she finished?
Yes, if she complies with the definition "finish"
3) Can the vessel undo the finish crossing and correct any error made?
Only if the error is made while finishing. i.e. Goes through the wrong way, undoes the error and crosses correctly.
According to previous rulings, if a vessel crosses the finish line in the correct direction, she has finished.
CASE 112 A boat that makes, and does not correct, an error in sailing the course does not break rule 28.1 until she finishes.
CASE 128 If the race committee observes a boat make an error under rule 28.1 in sailing the course and fail to correct that error, it is required to score her NSC.
Under new rule A5, if the race committee observes a boat make an error in sailing the course, it may now score her NSC without a hearing.
So... I think I have it....
Where a boat starts, she can sail the course.
To finish, she must start and sail across the finish line. (see definition finish)
Should she not "sail the course" she cannot "undo" if she has the finished.
RRS 28.2 - If the she goes through the finish, in the correct direction, she has finished and does not have the opportunity to correct any errors in sailing the course therefore in the diagram shown above by Stewart Campbell, titled "Finished or Not 220106.png" Blue would be scored DSC.
Crappy but I believe this to be true.
said
Created: Today 04:26
While we obviously want rules to be useful, usefulness is not necessarily a good guide to validity.
Bear in mind we still have the case of a boat finishing, then 'unfinishing' where she takes a penalty at the finishing line.
Once we have accepted that correcting an error in sailing the course made at the line is the only exception available, I don't think your orange boat can correct her error as you have shown.
The first time she crosses the finishing line she has complied with parts of the definition of finish, and is NSC.
The language of the definition of racing isn't helpful, because the start point, before 'cleared the finishing line and marks' is that the boat has finished.
The language I proposed above
A boat that has sailed on every leg of the course (according to the criteria in Case 126) in the order required by the SI is not permitted to correct a rule 28 error other than one made at the finishing line.
While true, doesn't cover the field. In the orange boat example, the orange boat never sailed on the leg from M3 to the finishing line before crossing the finishing line.
Regrettably, I think we might have to come back to 'crossing the finishing line intending to finish'.
If that condition was in the rule, if a competitor then came back in a redress hearing and said 'I didn't intend to finish at all', so long as they had not done anything inconsistent with continuing to sail the course (motor, mooring, crew leaving etc etc), then Iwould be happy to accept their correction of a rule 28 error.
Can we construe 'to finish', in rule 28.2 to mean 'intending to finish'?
That sounds like a contender, but my good friend John A would tell you that a boat’s intent only matters in Rule 2 and Rule 69 ;-)
Last winter we had a good discussions regarding certain finish situations. With the help of Ang I submitted a Q&A to World Sailing. Here is the link to it: https://www.dropbox.com/s/54vu9t8ugxvnund/Q%26A%20continues%20to%20sail%20the%20course.docx?dl=0
For those who are not familiar with the Q&A service, here is a link to an explanation: https://d2cx26qpfwuhvu.cloudfront.net/sailing/wp-content/uploads/2022/02/21151842/2022-booklet-220221.pdf
During the year many Q&A's were answered, but not the one I submitted. After contacting World Sailing it turns out that they need a new case before they can answer it.
I just had a look at the rule change submissions for the upcoming World Sailing meetings. There is a proposed change to Rule 28.2 and a New Case. Here is the link to the submission: https://d7qh6ksdplczd.cloudfront.net/sailing/wp-content/uploads/2022/09/16103619/012-22-RRS-Rule-28.2-and-New-Case.pdf
What are your thoughts? - Ang
Ang