Dear all,
we all know that the AP flag postpones races, that are not started. N abandonds races sailed, but is there a flag signal telling the sailors that the event is finished? If I have sailed 6 races from a series of 8 races and due to whatever reasons the race commitee decides to call off the last two races, what flag has to be raised? If the event is finished, there are no races, that can be postponed. Raising flag A does not solve the problem, that that there will be no more races in this regatta.
Does anyone have a suggestion?
Thank's
Thomas
As an aside, N signals that "All races that have started are abandoned .........." so I suggest that there is some potential for confusion/requests for hearing, by displaying N over A while any boat is still racing.
Note that if you use N over A then any race that is in play is being abandoned.
Also if you use AP over H or N over H then you will need further signals ashore.
Makes it clean and reduces the thinking
We've had this discussion in another thread somewhere. Since then I've done a bit of digging and found the WS Race Management Policies for Fleet Racing. The section on Abandonment has 7 items, none of which consider abandoning a race not started. The section on Postponements only considers postponing during the starting procedure, which I infer applies to any time prior to the actual or scheduled start of a race.
If the regatta is scheduled to end on such and such a date, it's ended then unless there is a provision to reschedule. Since I prefer to keep things simple (the KISS concept) and distinct, and since the different terms are defined, abandonment applies to races actually started, and can apply to a race even after one or all have finished for all kinds of reasons. Races not started are postponed (although may be sailed later, if there's time in the schedule). If the postponement is on the stated last day of the event, the calendar supersedes the possibility of sailing them another day.
This mitigates any confusion inherent in the definition of N over A, which contains two statements - that 1) ALL races are abandoned. and 2) No more racing today. The question of which races are abandoned (statement 1) is not signaled or defined anywhere - did the RC pitch a race that was completed? Does it pertain to all races in a series, or all races in progress (e.g. in a multi-class event)? There is no way to tell. OTOH, AP/A tells the sailors only Races not started are postponed (i.e. those completed are not affected). and No more racing today. That "today" happens to be the stated last day of the event tells them that the races won't be sailed at all.
My vote is to use N for races started, and AP for those not.
AP over A is simple, communicates the message and doesn’t run the risk of unintentionally abandoning races in progress.
Usually I use AP over A and let logic prevail but I do agree another option might be useful
I agree with Paul that AP/A or AP/H should be used for races that have not started and N/A or N/H should be used for races that have started. However, if there is inclement weather coming in and you want all boats (racing or non racing) to go in, I suggest you display N/A or N/H because this avoid having to display of both the N and AP flags with a total of 5 sounds.
A problem we have with the current rules is that we don't have signal that forces boats to return to the harbour. This is why CORK, Kingston, Canada has the following instruction:
1. SAFETY REGULATIONS
Just like Mark, I would not display flag A as per US Sailing Prescription to RRS 32.
US Sailing prescribes that, if the sailing instructions so state, the race committee may display flag A (with no sound) while boats are finishing to signal that there will be no more races conducted that day.
AP over A is the signal that all sailors know, but it only should be displayed if there was an option to run another race. No need to display it if you are finishing the third race and you only can run three races on that day.
Keep in mind that if you have multiple fleets with some in a start sequence and some waiting for their start sequence you should display A (US prescription) or AP/ A over the class flag(s)
With all (and then some) due respect, I disagree with you here. Your table and Paul's response disagree in that he states (and I concur) that the use of an N signal doesn't apply for races not started, that's the place of the AP signals.
I also do not consider the RC liable for responsibility expressly left to the discretion of the Person in Charge of a boat (RRS 3). While we try to keep our eyes on the weather and other such things that may affect the safety of the sailors - some of us to what has been described as a fault - it is still the responsibility of the sailors.
If there is a situation where it is preferable to run away and the potential exists to return after a threat has passed, AP/H or N/H would be the proper signal to display. Once it has been and all are known to be safe, then another decision can be made and displayed ashore.
Again, flag signals are the only RRS accepted form of communication between the race officials and the sailors without other event-specific forms described in the event documents. The lack of clear signals, acceptably displayed, can be grounds for redress and thus liability. It strikes me as a good thing for the sailors to make sure we agree upon and use the accepted form of communication to let them know what we're thinking and doing, without confusion or relieving them of the responsibilities they take on by participating it an event.
Again, I vote for AP signals for races not started, reserving N for those that have. Simple, easy, and clear.
Best,
-- Carl
Carl, my reason for stating that N/A or N/H applies to races whether they have started or not is that under Abandonment Signals in RACE SIGNALS, the first sentence of text describing flag N is "All races that have started are abandoned". The text in the other two abandonment signals starts with " All races are abandoned".
Even though it has expired Q&A 2015.007 https://www.sailing.org/tools/documents/WorldSailingQABookletFebruary42016-[19986].pdf supports my position.
I was not talking about liability here, but just safety. Also, while we still have boats on the water we have to keep the CORK safety team out. This instruction facilitates it.
RRS 30.2 and 30.4 also refer to abandonment before the starting signal.
I confess that I was not aware of RRS 27.3, which makes me glad I don't do judging. Thanks to Myrto for pointing that out!
And I agree wholeheartedly with Peter on oh so many things, but specifically here in gratitude to Paul Z for setting this up and keeping it going. To paraphrase one of my mentors, we are all smarter together than we are by ourselves.
Thanks for allowing my voice.
-- Carl