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Leeward Mark Room - Rule 18 & 11
Gijs Vlas
Nationality: Netherlands
0
1 -Yellow and Blue reach the zone with overlap - Yellow is entitled to Mark Room Rule 18 2- Blue hails to Yellow that she has to luff to windward (Rule 11) and start rounding the mark- claiming Yellow is taking too much room 3 - Yellow ignores - "we are making our proper rounding - sailing the proper course"- definition of Mark Room
Is Blue entitled to apply Rule 11 and should Yellow have luffed windward until minimal room was left to her? I.e. can Blue file a protest here?
Created: 22-Sep-14 10:39
Comments
Craig Priniski
Nationality: United States
Certifications:
Club Race Officer
1
Mark-Room Inside boat is entitled to room to sail to the mark (no more) You can only do the "wide and tight" rounding if you have room and Right of way. Or of course you are by yourself... Rule 11 is not turned off by Rule 18, however Blue is limited to only taking Yellow up so far as the mark.
Created: 22-Sep-14 11:08
Benny Christensen
Nationality: Denmark
Certifications:
National Measurer
Club Judge
0
Mark room for the inside boat; think of it as a coridor next to the mark. This is where yellow can sail.
Created: 22-Sep-14 11:34
Tiziano Menconi
Certifications:
Regional Race Officer
-1
by the rule 18.2b :Yellow is the first to reaches the zone so the out side boat at the moment thereafter give the inside boat mark-room.
Created: 22-Sep-14 11:34
Kenneth Noble
Nationality: United States
0
What is the tide doing? We cannot determine the proper course under 11, from the drawing. I don't know...is my answer....as drawn. khn, chester river, md
Created: 22-Sep-14 11:46
Reinhard Schanda
Nationality: Austria
Certifications:
National Judge
0
Even if Y sails outside her mark-room at 2, B must give Y room to keap clear under RRS 16.1, when luffing. When B starts luffing between 2 and 3, Y keeps clear of B by luffing as well and does not violate RRS 11. Between 3 and 4, Y is also protected under 18.2.b, since here she sails within the mark-room she is entitled to.
Created: 22-Sep-14 11:52
P
Angelo Guarino
Certifications:
Regional Judge
Fleet Measurer
1
Mark-Room
Room for a boat to leave a mark on the required side. Also, (a) room to sail to the mark when her proper course is to sail close to it, and (b) room to round or pass the mark as necessary to sail the course without touching the mark.
When thinking about “proper course”, one needs to be sure to see how PC is used in the rule/term it appears. In Mark Room, “proper course” is used in a very specific way in (a) above and is not used in (b).
In (a), PC is used as a “test”, not a measure of space.
Test: Is the PC of the boat to sail close to the mark? Answer: Yes Result: The boat entitled to MR gets room to “sail to [the mark]” and “leave [it] on its proper side”
In (b) proper course is not used, but rather the def: “sail the course” is used, which does not itself include the term proper course.
Created: 22-Sep-14 13:37
Reinhard Schanda
Nationality: Austria
Certifications:
National Judge
2
Agreed Angelo, but what is your conclusion?
Created: 22-Sep-14 13:42
Chris Brooks
Nationality: United States
-1
I feel compelled to enter my interpretation.
Before Yellow (Y) and Blue (B) reach the zone, they are overlapped and B is the leeward boat with the right-of-way.
Rule 11 states: "When boats are on the same tack and overlapped, a windward boat shall keep clear of a leeward boat."
B's right to alter course to windward may be limited to her proper course by rule 17: "If a boat clear astern becomes overlapped within two of her hull lengths to leeward of a boat on the same tack, she shall not sail above her proper course while they remain on the same tack andoverlapped within that distance, unless in doing so she promptly sails astern of the other boat. This rule does not apply if the overlap begins while the windward boat is required by rule 13 to keep clear."
We do not know from the presented scenario if the overlap was established in this manner or not, however in this case it is not relevant.
At the moment Y reaches the zone rule 18 applies.
Note that the heading for section A, "Right of Way" states that: "A boat has right of way over another boat when the other boat is required to keep clear of her. However, some rules in Sections B, C and D limit the actions of a right-of-way boat." Rule 18 is in Section C.
Rule 18.1 sates: "Rule 18 applies between boats when they are required to leave a mark on the same side and at least one of them is in the zone." This is the case in our scenario.
Rule 18.2 states: Giving Mark-Room
(a) When boats are overlapped the outside boat shall give the inside boat mark-room, unless rule 18.2(b) applies. (It doesn't apply in our case)
Therefore, B is obligated to give Y "mark-room" in this case. This is defined as: Room for a boat to leave a mark on the required side. Also, (a) room to sail to the mark when her proper course is to sail close to it, and (b) room to round or pass the mark as necessary to sail the course without touching the mark.
Therefore, Y is entitled to mark room and may sail her proper course, this would include sailing close to the mark, which would necessitate a somewhat initial wide berth. This is my interpretation, however a search through the appeals might clarify this.
One other note: I attended a talk by Dave Perry several years ago and he showed a video of an intercollegiate race where about 10 small dinghies were rounding a leeward mark together. All the boats respected each others right-of-way and rounded one immediately after another, exiting the mark rounding as efficiently as possible. The absolute best outcome for B is to swing wide, round the leeward mark as close as possible and then either tack immediately or end up on Y's windward hip. This is particularly important in the front of the fleet, where the goal is to increase the distance from following competitors and engage with nearby boats later in the race.
Created: 22-Sep-14 13:54
P
Angelo Guarino
Certifications:
Regional Judge
Fleet Measurer
1
Reinhard, assuming:
this is a leeward mark
the next mark of the course is to windward (straight up)
I agree with your write-up .. with additional comment.
A “hail” to the windward boat to “luff up” from a leeward boat @#2 has no force on a windward boat, without an accompanying change of course by the leeward boat. That said, a hail accompanied by a turn by the leeward boat is a way for the leeward boat to provide notice to windward of their actual change of course, and can be part of the evidence by leeward that she gave windward opportunity to keep clear under 16.1.
A leeward boat does not have to create contact to show a windward boat did not keep clear. Actually the RRS is built to avoid contact between boats.
@#2, Blue did not change course, and Yellow is only obligated to respond to Blue’s actions. That said, Yellow was actually converging down on Blue and appears to be almost at the point of not keeping clear of Blue (the inability of Blue to alter course without making immediate contact). At #2, Yellow’s boom is about 1/5th a BL from Blue’s hull. On a 30’ boat, that’s only 6’ .. which given the positioning of the boats is on the edge of keeping clear IMO.
I think Yellow is in the clear here … but only just barely.
Created: 22-Sep-14 14:10
P
John Allan
Certifications:
National Judge
Regional Race Officer
0
Reinhard Schanda
Said Created: Today 11:52
Even if Y sails outside her mark-room at 2, B must give Y room to keap clear under RRS 16.1, when luffing. When B starts luffing between 2 and 3, Y keeps clear of B by luffing as well and does not violate RRS 11. Between 3 and 4, Y is also protected under 18.2.b, since here she sails within the mark-room she is entitled to.
For a give way boat to fail to keep clear when there is no contact requires the right of way boat to take avoiding action, typically by changing course away from the give way boat.
It's not sufficient for her to say 'while the other boat was keeping clear I wanted to change course but couldn't'
That, BTW is the use of an entitlement to mark room or room to a right of way boat.
Created: 22-Sep-14 14:15
P
Angelo Guarino
Certifications:
Regional Judge
Fleet Measurer
1
Chris re: “Therefore, Y is entitled to mark room and may sail her proper course, this would include sailing close to the mark, which would necessitate a somewhat initial wide berth. This is my interpretation, however a search through the appeals might clarify this.”
My initial response was to point out the common error, which is exemplified by what you wrote above. In Mark Room, proper course is used as a test, not a statement of the space allowed.
Please read Craig’s reply above, he describes it correctly.
Also, read Appeal US20
Created: 22-Sep-14 14:21
Mark Evans
Certifications:
Club Judge
Club Race Officer
0
Yellow is entitled to room in existing conditions. These conditions are different for the sea state and wind strength and each skippers experience and ability. Is yellow maneuvering in a Seamanlke way? From the diagram, it appears that Yellow may have been able to move closer to the mark on her downwind approach. Did blue attempt to luff yellow closer to the mark at that point? Did yellow started her turn to round in a consistent radius?
Created: 22-Sep-14 16:19
Philip Hubbell
Nationality: United States
Certifications:
Club Race Officer
Judge In Training
0
Note that the proposed Rule for the next quadrennium allows a wide-and-tight strategic rounding for mark room boat regardless of right-of-way.
Created: 22-Sep-14 16:57
Rob Overton
Nationality: United States
Certifications:
National Judge
International Umpire
1
As Angelo and others point out, the answer to this question depends on two definitions: Mark-Room and Keep Clear. It's not enough to read the rule -- when the rule has words in italics, you have to go read the definitions of the italicized phrases (in the front of the rulebook). In this case, Yellow is only entitled to room to sail to the mark and round it (on its required side), and her only obligation is to keep clear of Blue, meaning Blue doesn't have to take avoiding action (which appears to be the case) and the boats are never so close that Blue couldn't change course in either direction without immediate contact (which also appears to be true). So, no penalty.
There is discussion above about how Blue could have forced Yellow to sail closer to the mark, but, as Chris points out above, that's not Blue's optimal course -- she wants Yellow to get around the mark as quickly as possible and then to follow Yellow around, or even scoot up and get on a higher line on the beat to windward. The worst thing that could happen, from Blue's point of view, is for Blue to force Yellow into a tight, slow mark rounding and then end up overlapped outside her. In other words, Blue sails her optimal course, in the diagram. Good on her! And nobody breaks any rules. A successful mark rounding!
Created: 22-Sep-14 17:58
Gijs Vlas
Nationality: Netherlands
0
I have read all - thanks for comments! First of all Rule 18 does not turn off other rules, in this case rule 11. The rest here is in the definitions and I agree Yellow is close to being at fault, BUT she is sailing proper course (as if she was alone) - optimal mark turn ( bit wide & tight). I was the tactician on yellow, ignored the hail of blue and responded I am allowed an optimal rounding (PC). No protest was filed. Had I been on Blue than I would have luffed Yellow (way) earlier outside the zone, making Yellow's turn more tight since Rule 11 did apply. Overall it was close to breaking the rules, and for reference the boats sailed here are 20 meter bargers, slow manoeuvring.
Proper Course A course a boat would choose in order to sail the course and finish as soon as possible in the absence of the other boats referred to in the rule using the term. A boat has no proper course before her starting signal.
Sail the Course A boat sails the course provided that a string representing her track from the time she begins to approach the starting line from its pre-start side to start until she finishes, when drawn taut, (a) passes each mark of the course for the race on the required side and in the correct order, (b) touches each mark designated in the sailing instructions to be a rounding mark, and (c) passes between the marks of a gate from the direction of the course from the previous mark.
Mark-Room Room for a boat to leave a mark on the required side. Also, (a) room to sail to the mark when her proper course is to sail close to it, and (b) room to round or pass the mark as necessary to sail the course without touching the mark.
Created: 22-Sep-15 06:51
P
Angelo Guarino
Certifications:
Regional Judge
Fleet Measurer
1
Gijs, I hope that one of your take aways from all the comments is that Yellow’s room did not include a wide-tight turn as if it included room to sail her proper course. Yellow only had room to sail to the mark while staying clear of Blue.
Created: 22-Sep-15 11:11
Gijs Vlas
Nationality: Netherlands
0
@Angelo - so your last comment implies that Blue did have rights according to Rule 11 - despite that Yellow's proper course (A course a boat would choose in order to sail the course and finish as soon as possible in the absence of the other boats ... ) was to make the wider turn to get the mark close hauled with optimum speed, which is the best rounding always - wide & tight with max speed. I am aware that this is ambiguous and a close call - would Blue be allowed to push Yellow tight to the mark with just enough room - then Blue would take the advantage since Yellow will loose speed in a sharp turn and loose a boat's width room to the mark by drifting. Blue could dive into that whole and gain advantage. As a tactician I stand with my approach, keeping the turn just optimal, hence as wide as required under the definition of Mark-Room a) or defensively delay the luff as much as possible to avoid contact (Rule 16.1 and 14). If I were on Blue I would have luffed up Yellow way outside the zone already, avoiding that she could bear-down once within the zone (Rule 11), or in case of this diagram then I would "hit the breaks" and turn wide with speed just on the stern of Yellow and bowing upwind after the rounding to get the higher lane in free wind.
All close sailing and close to the rules ... but I will always avoid Protest and contact since that only yields in loss of position.
Created: 22-Sep-15 14:08
P
Angelo Guarino
Certifications:
Regional Judge
Fleet Measurer
1
Gijs, what I and others are saying is that
Yellow was entitled to room to “sail to the mark” and round it on its proper side.
Yellow was required to keep clear of Blue
As Blue changed course, Blue had to provide Yellow opportunity [room] to keep clear in response to that course change
Once Yellow reached the zone, Blue did not have the right to luff Yellow above the corridor to the mark with room for her to round on the proper side, which is roughly drawn in green below. Had Blue turned toward Yellow at #1, Yellow was obligated to respond, as long Blue wasn’t pushing her above the mark.
Since Blue did not make a move @#1, this corridor “to the mark” followed Yellow such that at #2, when Blue finally alters course toward Yellow, the corridor (in orange) is close to the path the boats took.
Created: 22-Sep-16 11:59
Tim Hohmann
Nationality: United States
Certifications:
Umpire In Training
Regional Judge
0
Gijs, to add to Angelo's excellent description (and semi-excellent artwork ;-) ) the reference to "proper course" in the definition of mark-room is a condition, not an entitlement. If a boat is entitled to mark-room she's not entitled to sail her proper course, she's entitled to room to sail directly "to the mark" within the corridor that Angelo has described and make a "seamanlike" rather than a "tactical" rounding.
Created: 22-Sep-18 16:29
Mark Evans
Certifications:
Club Judge
Club Race Officer
0
I feel that there has been a lack of emphasis on "seamanlike". This statement has everything to do with the existing conditions, the vessels and the crews experience. I have been "bullied" on the race course. Bullying is not "Sportsman like behavior. The other skipper (blue) must allow yellow to round the mark. End of story. If Blue feels that yellow's skipper could have tightened up the rounding then blue needs to have a chat with yellow off of the course.
Created: 22-Sep-18 17:26
P
John Allan
Certifications:
National Judge
Regional Race Officer
0
Mark,
The RRS allow sailboat racing to be pursued as a serious athletic competition, involving boats manoeuvering at close quarters in the hands of competent crews. Competition includes attaining both physical and mental domination of one's opponents (within the bounds of the express rules). The rules can be used aggressively by a right of way boat to control or compel another boat to act in ways to their disadvantage.
That's the nature of the game prescribed by the RRS.
No rule requires a boat to be sailed in a seamanlike way. The term 'seamanlike way' is part of a test included in the definition of room. It does not relate to the actual conduct of boats racing.
Cases 21 and 103 discuss 'room' and comptence of crew, and are worth a careful read.
Case 103 sets the standard of crew as 'competent but not expert. Again, this is a hypothetical test, it does not refer to any requirement of an actual crew on a boat. The Case says
Neither the experience of IW’s crew nor their number is relevant in determining ‘room’.
Case 21 discusses room. It suggests that except in extraordinary conditions up to 1 boat length is sufficient room.
There is no provision in the rules for a boat to 'have a chat' with another off the course.
If a boat thinks that another boat has broken a rule and should be penalised, she should:
hail 'protest' and, if required, display a red flag at the first reasonable opportunity;
deliver a timely written protest; and
attend the protest hearing prepared to present evidence and argue her case.
I don't know...is my answer....as drawn. khn, chester river, md
When thinking about “proper course”, one needs to be sure to see how PC is used in the rule/term it appears. In Mark Room, “proper course” is used in a very specific way in (a) above and is not used in (b).
In (a), PC is used as a “test”, not a measure of space.
Test: Is the PC of the boat to sail close to the mark?
Answer: Yes
Result: The boat entitled to MR gets room to “sail to [the mark]” and “leave [it] on its proper side”
In (b) proper course is not used, but rather the def: “sail the course” is used, which does not itself include the term proper course.
I agree with your write-up .. with additional comment.
A “hail” to the windward boat to “luff up” from a leeward boat @#2 has no force on a windward boat, without an accompanying change of course by the leeward boat. That said, a hail accompanied by a turn by the leeward boat is a way for the leeward boat to provide notice to windward of their actual change of course, and can be part of the evidence by leeward that she gave windward opportunity to keep clear under 16.1.
A leeward boat does not have to create contact to show a windward boat did not keep clear. Actually the RRS is built to avoid contact between boats.
@#2, Blue did not change course, and Yellow is only obligated to respond to Blue’s actions. That said, Yellow was actually converging down on Blue and appears to be almost at the point of not keeping clear of Blue (the inability of Blue to alter course without making immediate contact). At #2, Yellow’s boom is about 1/5th a BL from Blue’s hull. On a 30’ boat, that’s only 6’ .. which given the positioning of the boats is on the edge of keeping clear IMO.
I think Yellow is in the clear here … but only just barely.
Agree.
Case 50 is worth a re-read.
For a give way boat to fail to keep clear when there is no contact requires the right of way boat to take avoiding action, typically by changing course away from the give way boat.
It's not sufficient for her to say 'while the other boat was keeping clear I wanted to change course but couldn't'
That, BTW is the use of an entitlement to mark room or room to a right of way boat.
My initial response was to point out the common error, which is exemplified by what you wrote above. In Mark Room, proper course is used as a test, not a statement of the space allowed.
Please read Craig’s reply above, he describes it correctly.
Also, read Appeal US20
Is yellow maneuvering in a Seamanlke way?
From the diagram, it appears that Yellow may have been able to move closer to the mark on her downwind approach. Did blue attempt to luff yellow closer to the mark at that point?
Did yellow started her turn to round in a consistent radius?
There is discussion above about how Blue could have forced Yellow to sail closer to the mark, but, as Chris points out above, that's not Blue's optimal course -- she wants Yellow to get around the mark as quickly as possible and then to follow Yellow around, or even scoot up and get on a higher line on the beat to windward. The worst thing that could happen, from Blue's point of view, is for Blue to force Yellow into a tight, slow mark rounding and then end up overlapped outside her. In other words, Blue sails her optimal course, in the diagram. Good on her! And nobody breaks any rules. A successful mark rounding!
Proper Course
A course a boat would choose in order to sail the course and finish as soon as possible in the absence of the other boats referred to in the rule using the term. A boat has no proper course before her starting signal.
Sail the Course
A boat sails the course provided that a string representing her track from the time she begins to approach the starting line from its pre-start side to start until she finishes, when drawn taut,
(a) passes each mark of the course for the race on the required side and in the correct order,
(b) touches each mark designated in the sailing instructions to be a rounding mark, and
(c) passes between the marks of a gate from the direction of the course from the previous mark.
Mark-Room
Room for a boat to leave a mark on the required side. Also,
(a) room to sail to the mark when her proper course is to sail close to it, and
(b) room to round or pass the mark as necessary to sail the course without touching the
mark.
As a tactician I stand with my approach, keeping the turn just optimal, hence as wide as required under the definition of Mark-Room a) or defensively delay the luff as much as possible to avoid contact (Rule 16.1 and 14). If I were on Blue I would have luffed up Yellow way outside the zone already, avoiding that she could bear-down once within the zone (Rule 11), or in case of this diagram then I would "hit the breaks" and turn wide with speed just on the stern of Yellow and bowing upwind after the rounding to get the higher lane in free wind.
All close sailing and close to the rules ... but I will always avoid Protest and contact since that only yields in loss of position.
opportunity[room] to keep clear in response to that course changeOnce Yellow reached the zone, Blue did not have the right to luff Yellow above the corridor to the mark with room for her to round on the proper side, which is roughly drawn in green below. Had Blue turned toward Yellow at #1, Yellow was obligated to respond, as long Blue wasn’t pushing her above the mark.
Since Blue did not make a move @#1, this corridor “to the mark” followed Yellow such that at #2, when Blue finally alters course toward Yellow, the corridor (in orange) is close to the path the boats took.
This statement has everything to do with the existing conditions, the vessels and the crews experience.
I have been "bullied" on the race course. Bullying is not "Sportsman like behavior.
The other skipper (blue) must allow yellow to round the mark. End of story.
If Blue feels that yellow's skipper could have tightened up the rounding then blue needs to have a chat with yellow off of the course.
The RRS allow sailboat racing to be pursued as a serious athletic competition, involving boats manoeuvering at close quarters in the hands of competent crews. Competition includes attaining both physical and mental domination of one's opponents (within the bounds of the express rules). The rules can be used aggressively by a right of way boat to control or compel another boat to act in ways to their disadvantage.
That's the nature of the game prescribed by the RRS.
No rule requires a boat to be sailed in a seamanlike way. The term 'seamanlike way' is part of a test included in the definition of room. It does not relate to the actual conduct of boats racing.
Cases 21 and 103 discuss 'room' and comptence of crew, and are worth a careful read.
Case 103 sets the standard of crew as 'competent but not expert. Again, this is a hypothetical test, it does not refer to any requirement of an actual crew on a boat. The Case says
Neither the experience of IW’s crew nor their number is relevant in determining ‘room’.
Case 21 discusses room. It suggests that except in extraordinary conditions up to 1 boat length is sufficient room.
There is no provision in the rules for a boat to 'have a chat' with another off the course.
If a boat thinks that another boat has broken a rule and should be penalised, she should: