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Second line pushes first line
Catalan Benaros
2
Hi friends. Start with BLACK FLAG. Less than 60 sec to start Green pushes Orange...Orange is BFD. Can orange ask for rule 62 (Redress)?? Rule 2 (Fair sailing) to green ?
Ted, read both paragraphs of A1 of Case 140. It depends on Orange’s actions.
Created: 22-Nov-15 19:16
Ted Jones
Nationality: United States
Certifications:
National Judge
Umpire In Training
0
I'll look tonight.
Thanks.
T
Created: 22-Nov-15 20:29
Ant Davey
Certifications:
National Judge
International Judge
Umpire In Training
0
I think the first action is to protest green for breaking 12 and 14. And tick the redress box on the form. It's then up to the PC to determine whether Rule 2 was broken, and from there whether redress can be given. That, as Angelo says, depends on whether A returned to start correctly.
Created: 22-Nov-16 08:11
P
Angelo Guarino
Certifications:
Regional Judge
Fleet Measurer
1
Ant, Catalan didn’t specifically state it in his OP, but I think it is presumed that Orange is scored BFD.
Isn’t the Rule 2 question only determinate on the penalty to Green and not if Orange is scored BFD or her finish-place?
As you say, assuming Orange returns to start correctly, sails the course and finishes, and Orange is scored BFD, I think the question is:
“Under what circumstances and processes (if any) does Orange get scored in her finish place and not BFD?”
I think there are a couple scenarios:
1) Orange validly protests Green
PC finds that
Green broke a rule which compelled Orange to break 30.4 (black flag)
Orange is exonerated under 43.1(a)
PC decides Orange shall be scored in her finish place
Green could also have been found to break Rule 2 and be scored DNE [which is independent from above].
Question: If the RC did not record a finish place for Orange, should the PC:
get evidence themselves to determine Orange‘s finish place
submit a scoring inquiry to the RC and let them figure it out, or
file a redress against the RC (which in the US would require notice of the hearing to all boats) for the improper-act/omission of not recording her finish place?
2) Green takes a penalty, Orange does not protest Green Here is an interesting one. Case 140 states: “[…] A would have been exonerated by rule 43.1(a) for breaking rule 30.3 or 30.4; and, had she done so [returned to the pre-start side of the starting line, started, sailed the course and finished] , the race committee would have been required to score her in her finishing place, and rescore the race accordingly.[…]”.
As we were discussing in the other thread, 43.1(a) does not require the exonerated boat to protest the compelling boat.
Orange …
first files a scoring inquiry [asserting she is exonerated and Green took a penalty]
RC refuses to change BFD to finish place
Orange files a request for redress.
Orange calls Green as a witness and Green admits to breaking rules 12 and 14 and that they took a penalty.
At this point, shouldn’t the PC find that Orange is exonerated under 43.1(a) and thus the BFD score is improper … and instruct the RC to score her in her finish-place?
PS: I fixed my reply’s original flipping if Orange/Green
Created: 22-Nov-16 15:55
Mark Evans
Certifications:
Club Judge
Club Race Officer
0
I do not believe that the question of fair sailing was answered. In review of case 140 it appears that in case 140, the collision arrears to be unintentional. Did Green intentionally push yellow over?
Created: 22-Nov-16 16:06
Ant Davey
Certifications:
National Judge
International Judge
Umpire In Training
0
Angelo, I included Rule 2 in the context of its need to give redress for the initial score of BFD (scenario 2). Given that the RC would, in most situations, not be able to see the push, I wouldn't suggest that they had made an error in their scoring. However, as written, you are right that it is possible simply to exonerate Orange for breaking 30.4 under 43.1(a). In that situation I would send the Orange sailor away with a note (conclusion and scoring query) from the PC to the RC that their score is to be as finished. And instruction to the sailor to find those who finished before and after him to verify his/her place.
Given the positioning of the boats in the diagram, I may conclude that Green could have avoided the collision by luffing, and that the act may therefore have been intentional. Sailing conditions would have to be taken into account, as might age and experience. In this case I would most likely find Green to have broken Rule 2 and that would allow redress to be given to score in the finishing position recorded or discovered. Even if there were only six boats in the race, as said above, I'm not sure I could find fault in the RC, as their attention would be on the line and not what's happening in the second row.
Thanks.
T
Isn’t the Rule 2 question only determinate on the penalty to Green and not if Orange is scored BFD or her finish-place?
As you say, assuming Orange returns to start correctly, sails the course and finishes, and Orange is scored BFD, I think the question is:
“Under what circumstances and processes (if any) does Orange get scored in her finish place and not BFD?”
I think there are a couple scenarios:
1) Orange validly protests Green
Question:
If the RC did not record a finish place for Orange, should the PC:
2) Green takes a penalty, Orange does not protest Green
Here is an interesting one. Case 140 states:
“[…] A would have been exonerated by rule 43.1(a) for breaking rule 30.3 or 30.4; and, had she done so [returned to the pre-start side of the starting line, started, sailed the course and finished] , the race committee would have been required to score her in her finishing place, and rescore the race accordingly.[…]”.
As we were discussing in the other thread, 43.1(a) does not require the exonerated boat to protest the compelling boat.
Orange …
At this point, shouldn’t the PC find that Orange is exonerated under 43.1(a) and thus the BFD score is improper … and instruct the RC to score her in her finish-place?
PS: I fixed my reply’s original flipping if Orange/Green
In review of case 140 it appears that in case 140, the collision arrears to be unintentional.
Did Green intentionally push yellow over?
However, as written, you are right that it is possible simply to exonerate Orange for breaking 30.4 under 43.1(a). In that situation I would send the Orange sailor away with a note (conclusion and scoring query) from the PC to the RC that their score is to be as finished. And instruction to the sailor to find those who finished before and after him to verify his/her place.
Given the positioning of the boats in the diagram, I may conclude that Green could have avoided the collision by luffing, and that the act may therefore have been intentional. Sailing conditions would have to be taken into account, as might age and experience. In this case I would most likely find Green to have broken Rule 2 and that would allow redress to be given to score in the finishing position recorded or discovered. Even if there were only six boats in the race, as said above, I'm not sure I could find fault in the RC, as their attention would be on the line and not what's happening in the second row.