Forum: The Racing Rules of Sailing

Leeward Gate Mark - Room Required?

Eric Meyn
Nationality: United States
If the course is using a gate for the downwind mark and a port tack boat is overlapped with a starboard tack boat when the starboard tack boat enters the zone, and they intend to round opposite ends of the gate without gybing, does the starboard tack boat have to give "room", since they are not rounding the same end of the gate?
Created: 23-Apr-03 16:20

Comments

Werner Esswein
Nationality: Germany
Certifications:
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3
Every mark of the gate has its separated zone. So no 18, only 10.
Created: 23-Apr-03 16:34
P
Angelo Guarino
Nationality: United States
Certifications:
  • Regional Judge
  • Fleet Measurer
1
.. also review RRS 18.4
Created: 23-Apr-03 16:51
John Ball
Nationality: Canada
1
R 18.1 applies when boats are required to round a mark on the same side. As they are heading for different marks, one is rounding to port and the other to sbd, so R 18 does not apply - so no mark room between them - so just R 10 P/S.

As it is a gate, R 18.4 does not apply.

John
Created: 23-Apr-03 16:56
David Reddaway
Nationality: United States
0
Does the same apply at a finish line - two marks, two zones, Rule 10 only as long as everyone can cross the line?
Created: 23-Apr-03 16:58
John Christman
Nationality: United States
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  • National Judge
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0
Based on what you have said, the question only applies to the gate mark being rounded to starboard.  Once S is in the zone, she is required by rule 18 to give mark room to the boats inside of her, i.e. the room to sail to the mark and pass it on the required side.  Her rule 18 obligations do not turn off just because the inside boat is not taking that room.  Rule 18 does not require the inside boats to use that room or limit them to sailing within that room.  They may freely choose to do something else.  However, if they choose not to sail within that room they lose the exoneration for breaking the rules that comes from the entitlement of mark-room.  Which means that if P is not sailing within that room, then she is bound by the normal right of way rules and limitations, i.e. rule 10 in this case.
Created: 23-Apr-03 17:06
P
Angelo Guarino
Nationality: United States
Certifications:
  • Regional Judge
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1
John B, “As they are heading for different marks, one is rounding to port and the other to sbd, so R 18 does not apply - so no mark room between them - so just R 10 P/S.”

I disagree with this interpretation. 

Rule 18.1 does not factor in “what they are heading for” (the intent) of the racer, it is a factual test based on the factors listed in 18.1.

When going thru a gate, boats are required to pass between the gate-marks, therefore they “are required to leave a mark on the same side”. If also, “ at least one of them is in the zone.”, then we move onto 18.1(a-d), which none apply.  

18 applies between these boats if one of them is inside the zone of one of the gate-marks and they are overlapped, relative to the zone of the gate mark one of them is in. 
Created: 23-Apr-03 17:14
Antonio Parra Arrondo
Nationality: Spain
Certifications:
  • National Race Officer
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0
Both rules apply on a leeward gate, 10 and 18. At first, by rule 10 the boat on port tack has to keep clear of the boat on starboard tack, so the latter must gybe and change course to keep clear.

The moment she gybes, if they are in the zone, rule 18 will apply and the boat that was previously on port tack now has to keep clear by rule 11, but at the same time is entitled to mark-room by rule 18

Created: 23-Apr-03 17:18
John Christman
Nationality: United States
Certifications:
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  • National Judge
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1
Just because the boats are heading to different gate marks does not mean that the rule 18 doesn't apply within the zone of each mark.  The mark still has a required side and meets the requirements for applying rule 18.  The outside boats still have to plan to give room to the inside boats.  Suppose that it looks like P is setting up to go around the other mark and suddenly changes her mind.  Does that give S a defense for not giving room?  I don't think so.

The real complication comes when the zones overlap enough that you can't tell how the rule 18 obligations.  Then you really have to look at what 'regular' rules a boat may have broken and then decide whether the boat is sailing within the room she is entitled to to determine if she will be exonerated for breaking that rule.  This is the proper way to approach rule 18 for the inside boat.  Decide what rules were broken and then look at exoneration.  For the outside boat it is simply whether she gave the room required.
image.png 131 KB
Created: 23-Apr-03 17:21
Tim Hohmann
Nationality: United States
Certifications:
  • Umpire In Training
  • Regional Judge
0
I think there are two possible scenarios here, depending on how the RC has set the gate. Are the answers different?

Gate marks are more than 6 boat lengths apart


Gate marks are less than six boat lengths apart, resulting in overlapping zones
Created: 23-Apr-03 17:25
John Christman
Nationality: United States
Certifications:
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3
I don't think the answers are much different.  It's about going through the process of applying the rules for each zone independently.  I think the hardest part is to separate out the idea that rules are broken then and then you get exoneration for breaking the rules.  But if you think about it that way then you come to the right conclusion and decision.
Created: 23-Apr-03 17:31
Randy Hough
Nationality: Mexico
Certifications:
  • Measurer in Training
  • Regional Race Officer
3
Gate marks should NEVER have overlapping zones. Get yourself an RO and BIMBOS that know how to set courses. (Said with love and respect)  ;-)
Created: 23-Apr-03 18:09
Eric Meyn
Nationality: United States
0
So (as the OP) what I'm hearing is... maybe?  LOL   At first the assertion that since they are going to different marks, then the room rule doesn't apply, made sense.  But the following remarks that reasonably point out that there's no way for the SB boat to know the intentions of the P boat, then giving room would depend on the actions that P takes.  BUT ---- following that we have comments indicating that you shouldn't set a gate narrow enough to allow the zones to touch, which would then negate the need for the discussion.... I think?  I scratched out some examples of what might occur that would put them in conflict but I can't come up with one that would require the SB boat to have to give room if the P boat went to the opposite mark.  

So I guess the answer is that the SB boat is the stand on boat based on her tack and the only way that changes is if the P boat changes her mind, tacks in the zone for the left mark to the inside of SB and doesn't point high enough to cause SB to luff in her attempt to give room.
Created: 23-Apr-03 19:03
Tim Hohmann
Nationality: United States
Certifications:
  • Umpire In Training
  • Regional Judge
2
Eric, I think the P is entitled to mark-room at the right-hand gate (looking downwind) but doesn't intend to take it. So in going to the left gate mark P is outside of her mark-room entitlement and so must keep clear of S under RRS 10. As long as the boats are going to opposite marks, mark-room obligations are technically in effect but don't really come into play.

If Yellow (in my diagrams) were to change her mind and gybe toward the right-hand mark, she would be entitled to room to sail from her gybe point to the mark and Blue would have to give her that room.

How about this?

gate 3.jpg 52.8 KB
Created: 23-Apr-03 19:28
Eric Meyn
Nationality: United States
0
UPDATE:  I think I found it.  Are y'all using Sail Replay?  https://sailreplay.com/ 

Unrelated to the question at hand but what software are you guys using to make the diagrams of the situations?  This could come in very handy for some of the rules discussions I give at our local club.  Thanks!
Created: 23-Apr-03 19:29
Eric Meyn
Nationality: United States
0
Tim H.  This is a different situation (slightly) than the one I'm presenting because in mine, the boat entering the zone first is the SB boat and is the stand-on boat due to Rule 10.  

In your scenario, which is still interesting, the first boat in the zone is P and is not on a collision course.  But (and I may be wrong here) yellow gybes in the zone and even if the resulting position put her inside of blue, she wouldn't have room rights because of the gybe?  And blue still retains the room rights she had at the point that she had overlap on yellow when yellow entered the zone, so blue doesn't have to alter course, even as the windward boat?
Created: 23-Apr-03 19:35
Tim Hohmann
Nationality: United States
Certifications:
  • Umpire In Training
  • Regional Judge
1
Eric, when the boats are overlapped and the first of them enters the zone, who gets mark-room? What actions end a boat's entitlement to mark-room?

How about this situation?
Gate 4.jpg 52.8 KB


Created: 23-Apr-03 19:44
Eric Meyn
Nationality: United States
0
(Next response will be delayed.  Gotta go oil my teak, paint my deck, and replace some non-skid tape.  LOL)

Tim H, the yellow (inside) boat would be entitled to mark room if she has overlap when the first boat entered the zone.  But yellow has to gybe.  And I'm going through all the caveats in Rule 18 and I can't find anything that would negate her room rights because she didn't pass head to wind and she didn't start off as the stand-on boat.  She ends up being windward after the gybe but I think her room rights still stand in this case.

Created: 23-Apr-03 19:53
Tim Hohmann
Nationality: United States
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  • Umpire In Training
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0
If I'm not mistaken sailreplay only works on Mac. I use Boat Scenario from sourceforge.net on Windows.

How about the Gate 3 scenario where Yellow crosses & then gybes to the right-hand mark? 
Created: 23-Apr-03 19:59
P
Angelo Guarino
Nationality: United States
Certifications:
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0
Tim re: your gate 3 drawing ..

Now you’re just being mean :-)
Created: 23-Apr-03 20:20
Tim Hohmann
Nationality: United States
Certifications:
  • Umpire In Training
  • Regional Judge
0
Nah, mean looks like this, where the zones overlap (which I agree shouldn't happen, but...) and they both change their minds...


Gate 5.jpg 53.4 KB
Created: 23-Apr-03 20:43
John Christman
Nationality: United States
Certifications:
  • Club Race Officer
  • National Judge
  • National Umpire
0
What I like is how the boats speed up and slow down between the different positions. ;-)  Looks like Y made the jump to light speed.
Created: 23-Apr-03 21:08
Tim Hohmann
Nationality: United States
Certifications:
  • Umpire In Training
  • Regional Judge
0
Created: 23-Apr-03 21:13
P
Angelo Guarino
Nationality: United States
Certifications:
  • Regional Judge
  • Fleet Measurer
0
Tim, would you take the time to layout how the rules play in your #3 and #4 for those playing along at home?
Created: 23-Apr-03 21:35
John Christman
Nationality: United States
Certifications:
  • Club Race Officer
  • National Judge
  • National Umpire
0
Yep!  Although now I wonder how Y's kite kept clear of B in the crossing! :-D :-D :-D!  But I do get the picture!

It still isn't that hard though once you remember that it doesn't matter which mark you are going to, all the rights, obligations, and limitations in the rules apply.  So you...
  • Figure out which boat has the right of way without the marks and whether any of these rules (10, 11, 12, 15, 16) was broken at any point.
  • Analyze each mark separately and decide for each mark:
    • Which boat (if any, which is possible!) is entitled to mark room and which has to give it
    • Decide if the boat that was required to give mark room is giving the other boat that room, if not then she breaks 18.2 (a) or (b).
    • Decide if the boat entitled to mark room was sailing within that mark room and is eligible for exoneration for breaking one of the above rules
  • List all the rule breaks and the exonerations and you have your answer.

In Gate 5a.
Let's assume the boats continue straight after position 3
If the marks weren't there
  • B on port, Y on starboard, B breaks 10.
Apply rule 18 for each mark
  • Left mark:
    • B enters the zone at position 2 and Y is overlapped and inside
    • B must give Y mark room (room to sail from where she is at each moment to the mark and around it on the proper side)
    • In position 2, Y is not sailing within that mark room so does not get exoneration for breaking rules, B is not preventing Y from sailing to the mark and around it so she is giving mark room.
    • In position 3, Y is sailing within the mark room she is entitled to and gets exonerated if she breaks one of the listed rules.  B does not get any exoneration and  B is preventing her from sailing to the mark and therefore is not giving Y mark room and B breaks 18.2(b).
  • Right mark:
    • Just prior to position 2, Y enters the zone and B is clear ahead (we will make harder than if they were overlapped, read 18.2(b) carefully)
    • Y and B become overlapped as they both gybe.  18.2(b) does not apply and 18.2(a) does.  Y is the inside, right-of-way boat, entitled to mark room.  Because it is a gate, 18.4 does not apply so she does not have an obligation to gybe to go around the right mark.
    • B is not preventing Y from sailing to the mark and around it so she is giving Y mark room.
    • Y is not sailing within the mark room to which she is entitled and will not get exonerated for breaking one of the listed rules.  She doesn't break any of the rules so exoneration won't apply.

The end result is that B breaks 10 and 18.2(b) and is not exonerated for breaking either rule.  Y does not break any rules and does not need exoneration.  B is DSQ.

Easy-peasy.

Note, in match racing, they intentionally set the gate about 3 boat lengths wide so that the zones overlap and create this situation on purpose!
Created: 23-Apr-03 22:07
Tim Hohmann
Nationality: United States
Certifications:
  • Umpire In Training
  • Regional Judge
0
Scenario 4 is pretty easy, I think.

At 1, Yellow is on port & Blue is on starboard, overlapped and approaching a gate mark. Blue is aiming for the right-hand mark (looking downwind) and Yellow is aiming for the left-hand mark.

At 2, the boats reach the zone of the right-hand gate mark. As drawn Yellow reaches the zone first but I don’t think it really matters. They are overlapped with Yellow inside with respect to the right-hand mark. Yellow is entitled to mark room. Yellow gybes to go to the right-hand mark, becoming windward keep clear boat on starboard.

Blue went from starboard ROW to leeward ROW as a result of Yellow’s action so rule 15 does not apply, but Yellow’s gybe does not end her entitlement to mark-room.

At 3 it appears that mark-room is not being given by Blue. On valid protest, penalize Blue for breaking 18.2(b). If contact occurs between boats (without damage or injury) or if Yellow hits the mark, Yellow is exonerated by RRS 43.

Anyone want to try Scenario 3? Or 5/5a [looks like John already did it…]? 

Created: 23-Apr-03 22:08
John Christman
Nationality: United States
Certifications:
  • Club Race Officer
  • National Judge
  • National Umpire
0
You didn't say "pencils down!".  In my analysis left/right are as you are looking at them on the screen.
Created: 23-Apr-03 22:10
Eric Meyn
Nationality: United States
1
Wow, thanks for the spirited discussion!  I really didn't think I was presenting a problem that would inspire so much thought.  Seeing that it has I'm going to settle on: this is a very complex situation IF minds change in the zone and boats end up going to the same mark.  And I'm also going to settle on: this is going to be a late night if it goes to the protest room. LOL

I think what I take away from it is (a) this is a good illustration of why it's important to set your gate mark up properly (b) if the boats do indeed go to opposite ends of the gate then it's a simple Rule 10 situation and (c) when the first boat enters the zone and there is overlap, both boats need to know who has room rights at that point and watch very carefully for any last minute decisions that result in both boats going to the same mark.  And if either boat is at all in doubt of who has rights to room, just avoid a collision and win it on the next leg.

Thanks again for the info.
Created: 23-Apr-04 12:40
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