Forum: The Racing Rules of Sailing
Penalty right at the finish
Neil Whitehead
Nationality: United States
0
There is a simple port starboard foul just a few boat lengths before the finish line. Both boats are on the wind and moving quickly.
The fouled boat tacks away as they are too close to duck.. the fouling boat crosses the finish line,
The fouling boat does not have the time or distance to perform a penalty turn before he passes the finish line.
Can the fouling boat return to the course side of the finish line, do his penalty turns and then re-finish?
The fouled boat tacks away as they are too close to duck.. the fouling boat crosses the finish line,
The fouling boat does not have the time or distance to perform a penalty turn before he passes the finish line.
Can the fouling boat return to the course side of the finish line, do his penalty turns and then re-finish?
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RRS 44.2. One-Turn and Two-Turns Penalties [emphasis added]
“Finish” is in the new def: Sail the Course [emphasis added]
Also, look at Case 128
In the OP, the boat that broke a rule initially crossed the finish line from the course side without any odd “sailing around an end of the line” mentioned.
Such a boat [as long as they take a penalty], that did not go around an end [as shown in Case 129] will satisfy the string rule (and def: finish) by:
In both cases above, the string-rule is satisfied.
In the diagram in Case 128, the boat initially sails “around an end” .. thus the string doesn’t go between the finish-line marks. The boat in 128 would have to “unwind”.
There is an obligation on the fouling boat to do their penalty turns "As soon after the incident as possible" and after sailing well clear.
Sailing back to the course side of the finish line may not be deemed to be "As soon after the incident as possible".
In Teams Racing this situation arises regularly and if the penalty is awarded by the on water umpire the fouling boat may be well passed the finish line when the penalty is given. In this case sailing back to the course side of the finish line before doing the turns is definitely not as soon as possible.
1. The boat is not considered finished when crossing the finish line as they have an outstanding penalty to clear.
2. The fouling boat can take their penalty on either side of the finish line as they have not finished due to the penalty and are still racing even if they have passed through the line.
3. The fouling boat must have returned totally to the coarse side of the finish line and then re-cross the finish line in the correct direction with no outstanding penalty to be "finished".
I read in a few other posts some commentary regarding if the finish line was considered a mark of the course or simply "the finish line".
What remains a little confusing to me is:-
1. If the fouling boat initially crossed the finish line, does the fouling boat then have to cross back through the finish line (as marks of the course), rather than say passing around one end of the line or the other - to unwinding the track string
OR
2. The finish line is not considered a mark of the coarse, but "the finish line", so it does not matter how the boat gets back to the coarse side of the finish as the string will correctly pass around all the other marks of the course.
Does this determination change based on race instruction wording of how boats are to finish?
An additional wrinkle.
I assume if the start/finish line is closed, since the fouling boat crosses the line, but has not finished due to the outstanding penalty they they would be DSQ as they passed through the finish while not actually finishing but still racing.
You repeated the above a couple times … and this is an incorrect way to think about it.
If a boat crosses the finish-line but broke a rule of Part 2 or rule 31, she has finished unless she takes a penalty under 44.2 (straight out of the def: finish).
If the boat does not take her penalty … and nobody protests this boat … she has finished and an RC should score her accordingly.
The better way to think about is the plain language of the definition. A boat’s crossing of the finish line is a boat’s finish unless:
Once a boat does any of the above and crosses the FL later, the 2nd crossing supersedes her first. From the RC’s POV, they will record both finishes and choose one based on their own information.
Thats not quite right.
First, in fleet racing there is no such thing as an 'outstanding penalty'.
All you have is (rule 44.1):
The definition of finish depends on the boat actually taking a penalty.
Consider Angelo's post above.
When, for the first time, any part of the boat's hull crosses the finishing line from the course side, she has finished in accordance with the definition and if she then does not do any of the following actions that is her finishing time and place. Exception actions are:
(a) takes a penalty under rule 44.2,
(b) corrects an error in sailing the course made at the line, or;
(c) continues to sail the course.
If she does perform one of those actions, she, by so doing, 'unfinishes' and needs to finish again by crossing the finishing line from the course side.
Correct
Not exactly.
She can take her penalty either side of the finishing line because the rules place no restriction on where a penalty may be taken.
You correctly observe the from the time she crosses the finishing line [and clears the finishing line and marks], until she begins to take one of the exception actions listed above, she is no longer racing (and is subject to rule 23.1).
Once she begins to take any of the exception actions she is no longer finished, and therefore is once again racing.
Again, not exactly.
Yes, she needs to again have part of her hull cross the finishing line from the course side.
A finishing line is not a mark.
It may be delineated by finishing marks but not necessarily.
I can't see any posts above referring to 'mark of the course '.
If there is a finishing mark, a boat that needs to get to the course side and re cross the finishing line certainly can sail around the outside of the finishing mark to do so.
Get out your pins and string and try it out.
If her string loops around a mark, initially leaving it on the required side, then, as required by Definition Sail the Course, it leaves the mark on the required side
I wouldn't expect it to, but I'd have to see the SI. It would have to be a pretty odd SI.
Not exactly.
This may depend on the SI wording. Presumably it will be something like 'Boats not finishing shall not cross the finishing line.'
You're caught up in this outstanding penalty confusion again.
When a boat sailing on the last leg that may have broken a rule and may intend to take a penalty crosses the finishing line she finishes, so first time, she's OK.
If she then sails back through the line, whether before or after taking her penalty, she breaks the SI: with that SI she needed to go round an end.
Once she has taken her penalty, she has unfinished, and by crossing the finishing line from the course side again she is again finishing so she doesn’t break the SI on her second finish.
This touches on a topic that we explored previously when examining what it meant to“continues to sail the course” ( def: finish (c)). An RRoS thread led to a Q&A submission by forum member Peter Van Muyden and a new WS Case 148 (which I just realized isn’t posted on RRoS yet … I’ll get on that!)
Anyway … I’m not sure we should have boats switching back and forth in and out of a state of racing.
In the context of “continuing to sail the course”, Case 148 discusses analyzing the actions of the boat after her first crossing to see if, “…at all times between her first and second crossing, her actions are consistent with continuing to sail the course”.
Case 148 doesn’t draw into its discussion the def: finish (c) condition, but given the new case, I wonder if one might use this “test” in its conclusion to all of finish’s conditions?
Applying that same test to the “take a penalty” condition, if a boat crosses the FL and clears the line and mark-influences, and at all times her actions are consistent with taking a penalty … then she continues to be racing. However, if she doesn’t pass that test, she has left the conduction of racing, and can’t come back.
Maybe 44.2’s “After getting well clear of other boats as soon after the incident as possible” test helps us close that loop more firmly as we have that already to invalidate a late-taken penalty.
Thanks for the reference to Case 148
Link here https://d7qh6ksdplczd.cloudfront.net/sailing/wp-content/uploads/2023/02/28112536/2023-Supplement-to-The-Case-Book-February-9-2023.pdf
That case is all about Definition Finish exception condition (c) 'continues to sail the course'.
I agree that if a boat continues to sail the course within the meaning discussed in the case then:
If she does not continue to sail the course from the time she first crosses the finishing line, then she has finished and can't 'unfinish' by ' beginning to continue to sail the course'.
In the absence of the new case I might well have been persuade that the word 'continues', in the definition meant 'continues without interruption', so the on/off issue does not arise with respect to continues to sail the course.
Absent some language like 'continue', despite your dislike for finishing switching on and off, i don't think you can apply the same argument to the other two conditions.
Before addressing taking a penalty, let's look at corrects an error in sailing the course.
It doesn't say continuously, or even promptly.
There's no suggestion in that subparagraph the the boat can't pause and have a think about things, as described in case 148, then quite legitimately sheet in and go about correcting her error.
In that case I think the finish - unfinish idea is applicable.
Now to taking a penalty.
The exception subparagraph reads 'takes a penalty under rule 44.2'
In the sort of statutory or contract clause construction I'm familiar with, there's a strong distinction between doing something 'under' some provision and doing it 'in accordance with' that provision, that's very applicable here.
To do something 'under' a provision means to do something provided in at least one of the choices or conditions allowed.
To do something 'in accordance with' a provision means to do it in compliance with every part of the provision.
I think its pretty well agreed, particularly in the context of rule 21.2 that rule 44.2 has two stages
So 'taking' a penalty consists of engaging in the turning manoeuvre.
In my opinion a boat takes a penalty under rule 44.2 when she begins making the turn, and not before.
Taking a penalty in accordance with rule 44.2, OTOH, would include the getting well clear requirement.
So if a boat intending to take a penalty after crossing the finishing line is either getting well clear of other boats or just sailing along delaying taking her penalty, and not actually making the turn, she is not 'taking a penalty', the taking a penalty exception to Definition Finish does not apply, and once any part of her hull crosses the finishing line she has finished.
If she then starts to make the turn she is then taking a penalty (whether she has got well clear or not), and the taking a penalty exception applies and she is no longer finished , to use my language she has unfinished.
This would appear to have the effect that the boat intending to take a penalty, instead of retaining any right of way she may have had under Section A while getting well clear is required by rule 21.2 to keep clear of all other boats.
In summary I agree that the finish unfinish idea can't apply to a boat that continues to sail the course, but I think it may apply to the other two conditions, taking a penalty and correcting an error in sailing the course.
I agree that this is messy, and I don't think it was thought through by the RRC when they draft the change to the definition. But we need to go by the words as written, not how we think they should have been.
It would have been nice if the RRC had expanded Case 148 to include the other two exception conditions.
While I don't see a better way of dealing with the situation I see some potential issues if a boat is considered "not racing" after the first crossing of the finish line to before beginning to take a penalty. It seems like this could lead to further problems as the boat may no longer subject to the racing rules during this time, as she has finished and is no longer racing.
I like the idea that a boat would be considered to have been continuously racing if they subsequently decide to take a penalty. However we race by the rules as written, and its great to air the possible misinterpretations that less experienced racers such as my self can have.
Thanks again everyone or your input.
I have no problem with a boat's finish-state turning on/off ... that is the essence of the finish (a) thru (c) exceptions. I do have an issue of a boat's racing state turning on/off though .. that's what I was trying to get at.
ang
This isn't a problem. A boat that has finished racing remains subject to the RRS
Preamble to Part 2
The rules of Part 2 apply between boats that are sailing in or near the racing area and intend to race, are racing, or have been racing.
Isn't 'no longer racing' a necessary consequence of having finished [and cleared the finishing line and marks]?
Yes it is.
What I'm suggesting is this. We have 3 conditions in which a boat might cross and clear the FL and marks, but is still racing.
Case 148 (now on RRoS) interprets (c) for us and provides us an approach in determining whether or not a boat has met the requirements of "continues to sail the course" ...
If they meet that standard .. the boat continued to be racing between FL crossings. If not, they finished and stopped racing the moment the moment they crossed the FL the first time and cleared the line and marks.
I'm suggesting that it wouldn't be a stretch for PC's to reference Case 148 and apply that same logic when analyzing a boat at the finish taking a penalty ... looking at her actions and timing.
They might ask, "At all times after her first crossing, were her actions consistent with the boat taking a penalty under RRS 44.2?".
Did she, "After getting well clear of other boats as soon after the incident as possible,
a boat takes[promptly take] a One-Turn or Two-Turns Penalty?"If yes, then she continued to race between crossing 1 and crossing 2. If not, she ceased racing when she was clear the line and marks because she failed to take a penalty under 44.2.
In both those analyses .. a boat is never determined to have stopped racing and then starts again.
I don't agree that you can argue by extension from Case 148 that the criterion 'consistent with continuing to sail the course' can be applied to the taking a penalty and correcting an error exceptions to Definition of finish.
Case 148, as demonstrated by the passage you quoted, relies on the use of the word 'continues' in the definition, and in fact is really an interpretation of that word.
As I think I demonstrated in my previous post that taking a penalty and the correcting an error exceptions, in their wording in the definition have no connotation of continui or without interruption.
Awkward as the finish and racing switch on/off may be i don't think it is absurd so that the plain words should be construed with other than their plain meaning. In other words, apart from untidiness i don't see any need to get rid of the on/off switch.
I think your arguments are too much of a stretch.
Yea … maybe … it was worth thinking through and exploring I think.
The ambiguity around if a boat is racing or not racing around the finish-line area is as you say “awkward”. Another boat finishing-racing behind such a boat might have a hard time knowing if they have a non-interference obligation (rule 23). If I’m honest with myself, that’s the thorn stuck in my paw …
Anyway … thanks … we can always count on you for a considered critique. - Ang
I also recall discussions about difficulties for RO in knowing whether a boat was taking/had taken a penalty.
The exceptions in the definition of finish could be redrafted to take advantage of the meaning of 'continues ' in Case 148 something like
Finish A boat finishes when, after starting, any part of her hull crosses the finishing line from the course side. However, she has not finished if after crossing the finishing line she continues to sail the course including continuing to take a penalty
underin accordance with rule 44.2, or correctsing an error in sailing the course made at the line, or continues to sail the course.The RO could just score the boat at the second finishing time and wait for redress request!
Of course the race committee should record the times/places of all crossings of the finishing line.
If (and only if) the RO has been unable to distinguish that a boat has been taking a penalty or correcting an error, and she crosses again it is reasonable to presume she has done one of those things and score the second crossing, and await the redress.
This doesn't fix problems for other boats knowing whether they are dealing with a boat that has finished or is still racing.
As soon as an incident occurs that a boat may have broken a rule of part 2 or 31, there is not room for “delay”.
So .. maybe “continuity” is the incorrect framing, but instead a “lack of delay”. I guess we can argue the def’s and meanings but to me there is a hairline difference between those in this application (and probably no difference if we “add water”).
Taken together it gets me back to applying Case 148’s “approach”. After the incident; did the boat “delay” getting well clear and taking her turns?
If “yes”, then I think she’s finished and finished-racing as soon as she cleared the FL and marks after her 1st crossing … even if she then decided to engage, do turns and cross again.
Of course, US Appeals are only guidance here in the US, but this lack of delay is also echoed in the discussion of US124.
Now you're trying to import 'promptly' or 'without delay' into exceptions (a) and (b) of Definition Finish.
It's just not there.
And I still think you're trying ro roll up 'getting well clear' and 'taking a penalty'. They are separate.
Ahhh … I think I see now where we are apart. So, are you taking the position that a boat can “delay” starting the process of “getting well clear” beyond “as soon as possible” .. and still meet the requirements of 44.2?
I think US60 and US124 associate “getting well clear” with “as soon as possible”.