The Racing Rules of Sailing

Butterfly sailing possible?

Subscribe
P
Alberico Albano
Nationality: Italy
Certifications:
  • National Race Officer
  • National Judge
1K
Actions 
Is butterfly sailing possible when racing using a mainsail and gennaker?

Created: 23-Oct-09 13:22

Comments

Format:
Werner Esswein
Certifications:
  • National Judge
  • National Umpire
  • National Race Officer
2.2K
Yes, why not?
Created: 23-Oct-09 14:13
Greg Dargavel
Certifications:
  • National Judge
9.75K
Be sure your "gennaker" measures in. Sometimes they meet the specs for a spinnaker sometimes not.
Created: 23-Oct-09 14:19
Greg Eaton
Certifications:
  • International Umpire
  • National Judge
400
Butterfly sailing can also be known as goose-winging in some locations. Some class rules may forbid e.g RS200
Created: 23-Oct-09 14:23
Albert Rozin
Certifications:
  • National Judge
100
Yes!
Created: 23-Oct-09 14:26
Carlos Wenzel
Certifications:
  • National Race Officer
100
Yes! It´s not against any Race Rule.
Created: 23-Oct-09 14:34
Philip Corbett
Certifications:
  • Fleet Measurer
100
The Gennaker should be either a headsail or a spinnaker (ERS G.1.3)
If it is  a headsail, I don't see any restriction to the butterfly. Furthermore, the RRS mentions about the sheeting of sails in section 55.3 "(a) a headsail clew may be connected (as defined in The Equipment Rules of Sailing) to a whisker pole, provided that a spinnaker is not set". I don't see any restriction on the side for this whisker pole in the ERS (please correct me if i am wrong), so it could on the opposite side of the boom which then would be a "practical" way to operate the butterfly configuration.
If it is a spinnaker, the answer should be in the Class Rules (as mentioned by Greg Eaton already) e.g. ORC rating systems 209.4 "Spinnakers shall be sheeted on the same side as the boom, except when gybing or manoeuvring."
Created: 23-Oct-09 15:21
Dan Bowman
Nationality: United States
Certifications:
  • Race Officer In Training
3.25K
I think this is only restricted by class rules or if the SI were to restrict it.  An example of a class rule restriction is below from the Melges 15 class.

C.11 Boat Handling
C.11.1 Wing on Wing Sailing
(i) A boat shall not sail with the spinnaker filled opposite the mainsail (commonly known as wing-on-wing) for a distance of 2 or more of her hull lengths. A boat may take a Two-Turns Penalty as described in RRS 44.2 when she may have broken this rule while racing. However, when despite taking a penalty, the boat gained a significant advantage in the race or series by her breach her penalty shall be to retire.
Created: 23-Oct-09 18:13
Al Sargent
Nationality: United States
17.95K
Wing-on-wing sailing (as we call it here in the US) is common in some classes (where it's not prohibited by the class rules or SIs), to the point where sailmakers invest in producing videos on how to execute the technique. Here's one example from North Sails:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=X5BIpAMA-ak
Created: 23-Oct-09 20:08
David Longworth
Certifications:
  • National Race Officer
200
Legal

but you must not use a 'human whisker pole' that contravenes RRS 49,

Position 5 and 6 break RRS 49.2
P 4 breaks RRS 49.2 rule on boats with a single lifeline.

P 1, 2, 3 are OK


Created: 23-Oct-10 01:09
Niko Kotsatos
Nationality: United States
Certifications:
  • Judge In Training
41.321K
Getting a little in the weeds here, but for some reason I thought that it was OK to have shoulders outside as long as hips were inside. That's not really how the rule reads, but I thought it was how it was interpreted maybe?
Thank you. 
Created: 23-Oct-10 16:16
P
John Allan
Nationality: Australia
Certifications:
  • National Race Officer
  • National Judge
227.9K
The thing RRS 49.2 prohibits being outside the lifelines is the torso.

Torso is the main part of your body, and does not include the head, arms , and legs

An arm is not a torso.

A shoulder is debatable.

A shoulder and hip together are part of a torso.

See diagrams 1 and 4 in Case 36

In your diagram there's clearly a substantial part of torso outside.  That breaks the rule.
Created: 23-Oct-11 00:23
P
Angelo Guarino
Forum Moderator
Nationality: United States
Certifications:
  • Regional Judge
391.25K
Doesn’t it depend upon the number of lifelines?. If you have double LL’s, a crew can sit facing out and fold over the lower LL and use an outstretched appendage to hold a sheet out. 

49.2 “[…] On boats equipped with upper and lower lifelines, a competitor sitting facing outboard with his waist inside the lower lifeline may have the upper part of his body outside the upper lifeline”

And …

Case 4: “[…] No part of a person’s body is a ‘device’. It is therefore permissible for a competitor to hold a sheet outboard ..”
Created: 23-Oct-12 13:00
P
John Allan
Nationality: Australia
Certifications:
  • National Race Officer
  • National Judge
227.9K
Angelo Guarino
Said Created: Today 13:00
Doesn’t it depend upon the number of lifelines?. If you have double LL’s, a crew can sit facing out and fold over the lower LL and use an outstretched appendage to hold a sheet out. 

Quite right, but it would be a pretty strange sheet lead.
Created: 23-Oct-12 21:03
P
Angelo Guarino
Forum Moderator
Nationality: United States
Certifications:
  • Regional Judge
391.25K
Alberico, on Sunday I had to do exactly what you asked about here.  We lost our spin-halyard (luckily for only the last leg of the last race of the J105 regatta) in 20g30kts and finished the last downwind leg of the regatta "butterfly" (we call it "wing-on-wing").

My bowman laid with his back on the deck (butt at the toe rail and full torso inside the life lines) with both his legs outstretched and his feet stabilizing the clew of the winged jib.   Given the forces in those winds, he needed the extra strength available in his legs.

We actually only lost 1 boat in that last leg. :-)

Ang
Created: 23-Oct-23 11:22
You must be signed in to add a comment.
Back
Cookies help us deliver our services. By using our services, you agree to our use of cookies. Learn more