Forum: The Racing Rules of Sailing

Is retrieval rope attached to mark considered part of the mark? [Rule 31]

Al Sargent
Where we race, our inflatable marks often have a retrieval rope tied to them. These are not attached to the anchor, but rather free-floating, to help the mark set team to easily grab them and get the mark. 

Question: if a boat touches this retrieval line, but not the inflatable mark itself, then for the purposes of Rule 31, are they considered to have touched the mark?

Why this matters: this comes up frequently when rounding a leeward mark, where you're trying to cut close to the buoy in order to be able to hold a lane on the subsequent upwind leg. Sometimes these retrieval lines extend a few feet to leeward of the mark, half a boat-width in a Laser, which is quite significant.

The definition of mark includes, "and an object intentionally attached to the object or vessel", which seems to imply that the retrieval rope is considered part of the mark. 

Thanks.
Created: 23-Oct-04 17:55

Comments

John Porter
Nationality: United States
Certifications:
  • National Judge
  • Club Race Officer
1
Yes, the retrieval rope is part of the mark as it is an object intentionally attached to the mark. That said, it might be worth putting the minds together to see if there's an alternate method of retrieval that doesn't affect the racing. For instance, I like to use retrieval lines, but loop them to the top of the mark. Maybe you could have a small float on the retrieval line, then have a weight in the middle of the retrieval line that sinks it enough that the float rides against the mark, but is still easy to grab with a boat hook. 
Created: 23-Oct-04 18:06
Travis Lyne
Nationality: Canada
-1
...or I would think you could make a note in your SI's that the rope is not part of the mark?
Created: 23-Oct-04 18:27
Tom Shenstone
Nationality: Canada
Certifications:
  • Regional Race Officer
  • Club Race Officer
-1
if the mark has handles, it seems to me that a retrieval line should be unnecessary.  Ditto for using a boat hook - just hook the rode itself.
Created: 23-Oct-04 18:27
Gordon Davies
Nationality: Ireland
Certifications:
  • International Judge
1
Although the rope is part of the mark it is unseamanlike to leave ropes trailing in the water in an area where boats will be passing. So this may be considered an improper action of the race committee. 
 Many countries require retrieval lines on fishing marks to end in a small buoy or float so that they are visible. This sounds to me like a sensible seamanlike action.
Created: 23-Oct-04 19:35
Al Sargent
0
Travis, thanks for your comment, but we competitors often don't get any input into the SIs.

Tom, given the strong wind, waves, and current that we often have here in San Francisco, putting a boat hook on the anchor rode could likely lead to a flailing boat hook and injured mark set person. Or a broken boat hook. Imagine the windiest days in your venue, and that's pretty much every summer day in SF.

Gordon, interesting idea to protest the race committee for improper action, but it could be a tough call given that these steps are taken by people who run dozens of regattas a year.
Created: 23-Oct-04 20:06
Robert Woodbury
Nationality: Canada
Certifications:
  • National Race Officer
  • Club Judge
1
I think most would consider it very bad form if a race officer attached a retrieval line that a boat could inadvertently touch. Even if not an improper action, it affects the fairness of racing and good relations with those racing. So, to all race officers --- don't do this (yes, I am yelling). As far as I see it, you can't change the SIs to allow touching a retrieval line as that would change an RRS definition, which cannot be changed. 
Created: 23-Oct-04 20:17
Tom Shenstone
Nationality: Canada
Certifications:
  • Regional Race Officer
  • Club Race Officer
1
Al,
My point about boat hooks was not that one should use one but that if one were using one, there would be no need for a retrieval line.

In Toronto at least, almost all the clubs use tetrahedrons that have handles, Where a pin held up by a float through which the pole fitting passes is used, it may have a line that goes from the attachment point for the rode under the float to the pole fitting above the float, providing a loop to grab.  Where cylinders are used, something may be affixed to the mark and to its attachment to the rode so that the mark layer can grab it. I have not seen retrieval lines.

More generally, I think the use of retrieval lines with or without buoys on them should be avoided.  A trailing rope with no float is a probably unseen menace to proper mark rounding.  A line with a float trailing off to leeward is almost as bad for the competitor because it will be obscured by the mark itself when the boat is approaching from upwind.  Moreover, we're just making the mark a whole lot wider, for our convenience, so we shouldn't.
Created: 23-Oct-04 20:49
Ed Vincent
Nationality: Australia
Certifications:
  • National Judge
  • National Race Officer
2
I've attached a photo of a method for creating very robust retrieval "handles" on a cylindrical mark. It works well in Bass Strait, an area well known for "interesting" weather.
The line used is around 10mm (3/8"). It takes a bit of time to set up for a regatta worth of marks, but we used it as a splicing lesson for club members, particularly youth.
Created: 23-Oct-04 23:11
Al Sargent
0
Awesome solution, Ed. Looks easy to grab. And yes -- Bass Strait can have a bit of breeze. Thanks for sharing.
Created: 23-Oct-04 23:27
P
Benjamin Harding
Certifications:
  • International Judge
  • National Judge
  • Club Judge
  • Judge In Training
0
Travis Lyne

.or I would think you could make a note in your SI's that the rope is not part of the mark?

Hi Travis,

I'm not sure this will work, since that SI would then attempt to change a Definition, which of course is not permitted.  What do you think?
Created: 23-Oct-05 00:11
P
Michael Butterfield
Nationality: United Kingdom
Certifications:
  • International Judge
  • International Umpire
  • International Race Officer
1
Connect it as part of the anchor line, then there is no problem. Anchor lines are not continuous and have many parts, and this is no different.
Created: 23-Oct-05 08:33
Gordon Davies
Nationality: Ireland
Certifications:
  • International Judge
0
However a rope floating to leeward of a leeward mark in such a way it is not visible that boats can  get snagged is still unseamanlike, and can be considered as an improper action by the RC.

RYA 1989/10 is illustrative and pesuasive
 'Marks are laid for the benefit of competing boats and it is important that ground tackle be arranged to minimise possibility
of being fouled by the boats. In cases involving errors by the race committee, it is a good principle that any doubts be resolved in favour of the competitor.
Created: 23-Oct-05 10:42
P
John Allan
Certifications:
  • National Judge
  • Regional Race Officer
0
I strongly agree with Gordon.

The solution is to avoid  trailing lines, not to come up with a SI to excuse it.
Created: 23-Oct-05 12:11
David Longworth
Nationality: Australia
Certifications:
  • National Race Officer
0
Al 
don't trail ropes for Moth foilers, you may get a bill for $6,000 !
Created: 23-Oct-10 02:04
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