Forum: The Racing Rules of Sailing
Finishing While Capsized
Dan Bowman
Nationality: United States
Certifications:
- Race Officer In Training
0
In an event this season, in very spirited conditions, a competitor capsized during a gybe before the finish line and proceeded to cross the finish line while upside down in the process of righting their boat. It was accepted that the boat had finished and a time was taken. At the after party everyone congratulated the crew of the capsized boat on finishing while upside down and an experienced and well traveled sailor commented on a PRO in another location that disallowed a competitor from being scored while upside down with the reason being that the boat did not have all of its equipment in the proper positions. The PRO for the our event commented that they scored the hull crossing the finish line, not the mast which crossed first. I suspect this remembered event happened in the prior version of the rules when equipment in the proper position was considered the moment a boat crossed the finish line. Current rules require scoring to be the hull crossing the line, not equipment.
I cannot find anything in the rules or cases that would disallow scoring the capsized competitor in the current or prior rules. In the version of the rules before the current ones I do remember that finishing was for equipment that was in its normal position so as to cover a boat significantly easing spinnaker sheets to move the spinnaker forward to finish. I still do not see how this rule would apply to an overturned boat when the hull is what was scored when crossing the finish line.
Thoughts?
Current relevant definition.
A boat finishes when, after starting, any part of her hull crosses the finishing line from the course side. However, she has not finished if after crossing the finishing line she
(a) takes a penalty under rule 44.2,
(b) corrects an error in sailing the course made at the line, or;
(c) continues to sail the course.
Edit: Changed wording in first paragraph, fourth sentence from the to our.
I cannot find anything in the rules or cases that would disallow scoring the capsized competitor in the current or prior rules. In the version of the rules before the current ones I do remember that finishing was for equipment that was in its normal position so as to cover a boat significantly easing spinnaker sheets to move the spinnaker forward to finish. I still do not see how this rule would apply to an overturned boat when the hull is what was scored when crossing the finish line.
Thoughts?
Current relevant definition.
A boat finishes when, after starting, any part of her hull crosses the finishing line from the course side. However, she has not finished if after crossing the finishing line she
(a) takes a penalty under rule 44.2,
(b) corrects an error in sailing the course made at the line, or;
(c) continues to sail the course.
Edit: Changed wording in first paragraph, fourth sentence from the to our.
Comments
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All crew were on the hull attempting to right the boat when crossing.
In the 2017-2020 rules the definition of finish was
Is your point that a boat finishes even if it floats across the line unnamed, but that boat could be protested for breaking RRS 48.2?
Is a crew "sailing the boat to the next mark" when they are capsized? If the crew is not in contact with the boat, how can they be "sailing the boat to the next mark."
Seems to me a capsized boat finishes when the hull crosses the line with or without a crew on board. I'd struggle to find that they broke rule 48.2 as that would require me to conclude that they were sailing the boat! How is the wind acting on the sails when the boat is capsized?
Now it's based on the hull. You can drift across backwards or upside-down. "In contact" with the boat line probably doesn't apply because the boat never "resumed sailing to the next mark." Even if we define drifting upside down as "sailing," in contact could just mean touching the boat. So I think that rule is not violated.
I would conclude that the dinghy finished when it crossed the line. Also, I have seen this happen many times in high-school regatta.
We have a boat in a race in 5kts of breeze and 2 kts of current. All of a sudden the wind goes to zero … but the current is pushing them in the right direction because the hydrodynamic drag on the bull is pushing the boat that way (so they don’t drop the anchor). Are we going to say they are no longer sailing for the purposes of the rules?
Or opposite … the mast breaks … boom and sail in the water … but wind acting on the hull pushes the boat.
Could “sailing”, for the sake of the RRS, be when wind and water act on a boat (hull, sails, crew) to move it in a direction?
ISAF Q&A 2008-002 (since lapsed) dealt with the issue
In the photo below are the crew in contact with the boat? If this was the moment that the boat crossed the finish line, would you protest them for breaking rule 48.2? Both crew members have left the boat.
I think the very reason the Q&A never went anywhere may have been because it removed the requirement to be in contact with the boat.
Ang,
I seem to remember seeing, I think at a RO seminar, a similar picture, but with the airborne crew NOT in contact with the boat, and the answer was, had not finished.
Again, I’m just taking a position for the sake of discussion.
PS: Not sure about the kite boarder as they are attached (in contact) to the “sail” and not the board.
Since 2017 'in normal position' is irrelevant to finishing. The phrase now only appears in Definition Clear Astern and Clear Ahead; Overlap
The helm is clearly not on board, and is leaving the boat by accident.
So your proposition is that in the several seconds before they both hit the drink the crew on the wire is not 'resuming to sail the boat' and thus RRS 48.2 is not broken.
How about this approach ???
Introduction says “boat” is “A sailboat and the crew on board.” .. so 2 items need to be there …
How can a “boat” finish that is disintegrated and thus no longer meets its own basic definition of the “boat” when it started?
Def: finish says “A boat finishes when …”
A sailboat that crosses the line without “the crew on board” no longer meets the RRS term “boat” (and if only partial crew are onboard, then it’s a different “boat” than started the race).
PS: I would consider being in physical contact with the sailboat being “onboard”. Therefore connected to the trapeze in Mark’s pics would qualify, however the kiteboarder who is only attached to the kite would not.
The definition refers to the crew that are on board. It says nothing about crew that are not on board. It does not say 'a sailboat and all its nominated crew on board'. Thats left to rule 48.
As to the kiteboard, assuming it is a sailboat at all, a boat consists of hull, appendages, spars, rigging and sails. Why should the 'hull' of a sailboard be any more of the boat than the rigging and 'sail' that the sailor is hanging onto?
Def: Finish - “A boat finishes when after starting …” thus the same boat has to finish that started … and thats the same “sailboat and the crew on board”
PS: Appx F preamble .. “The term ‘boat’ elsewhere in the racing rules means ‘kiteboard’ or ‘boat’ as appropriate.” .. and ..
Finish : A kiteboard finishes when, after starting, while the competitor is in contact with the hull, any part of her hull, or the competitor, crosses the finishing line from the course side
That's not the work of the definition of boat, that's the work done by rule 48.
Consider when a person on board leaves because they are ill or injured.
But wouldn’t you agree that the def of Boat requires at least one crew onboard? There is a clear distinction between sailboat and the crew on board as 2 separate components.
A crewless sailboat that crosses the FL doesn’t seem to meet the def of boat.
As to finishing, you don't need to look to the definition of boat. Its taken care of by rule 48 and the definition of finish, which now looks at hull, not boat.
Going back to no crew at all, what about Radio Sailing?
What about a boat with all crew overboard and sailing away without them: is it now a non-boat? Which can't break a right of way rule?
Finish: “A boat finishes when …”. It’s not “a sailboat finishes when”. Boat is a sailboat and the crew on board”.
I think the specialty racing Appx’s seem to each have their own alterations of what “boat” means in that Appx (and as in Kiteboarding also what finish means)… so I don’t think it’s fruitful to add those into the mix. Each would have to be felt with independently.
I think I could argue (for the time being to at least see where that position take us) that a crewless sailboat is no longer a boat for the purposes of the RRS and while crewless is an obstruction to other boats … just like any crewless vessel one comes upon adrift. This sailboat would regain boat-status when the crew regains contact with the sailboat.
We are discussing what happens if the hull crosses the finish line when no crew is in contact with the boat.
How you would make the case?
Here's the old Case 1
Note that both the old Case 1 and the 2008 Q&A say that it's OK if crew are separated from the boat but are 'with' it, or 'swimming to reach it'.
Note that both the old Case 1 and the 2008 Q&A say that it's OK if crew are separated from the boat but are 'with' it, or 'swimming to reach it'.
Yes, and I maintain my position that this should be construed as the crew that actually are on board, nor some crew that might have been, but are no longer on board.
Given RRS 48 (and discounting Mark's proposition that there has to be some crew on board to 'continue sailing to the next mark'), I don't think it is necessary to force the construction you are putting on the definition of 'boat', which, of course is not a Definition.
I think imputing unusual or elaborate meanings onto definitions is undesirable, because of the potential for unintended consequences for other rules, for example see my comment on the last paragraph of your post below.
So a boat on starboard tack suffering serious damage from a collision with a crewless sailboat on port tack can't get redress because the crewless sailboat isn't a 'boat', and can't be protested and penalised?
Found the reference for 'contact'.
It's the 2021 version of RRS 48.2 which was amended in 2021 to include that very word.
That amendment also introduced the 'crew resumes sailing the boat ... ' term.
The submission supporting the changes is shown below.
The change from 'on board' to 'in contact with' in RRS 48.2 makes it clear that it is not a requirement for all crew to be on board for a boat to continue racing or to finish, provided any crew that are not 'on board' are in contact with the boat.
I think that disposes of the argument that a sailboat with some or all crew not on board is somehow not a boat for the purposes of the RRS.
The insertion of 'crew resumes sailing the boat ... ' clearly did not contemplate, for example a sailor of a solo crewed boat going overboard, or all crew going overboard.
However, I think the reasoning of the submission, and in particular Answer (1) in the last paragraph makes it clear that a boat is racing and may finish provided that her crew are in contact with the boat. Question and Answer (1) of the Submission say
Q(1) If the current carries the boat across the finishing line before the person is recovered, should be boat be scored as having
finished?
A(1) The boat that is swept across the line by the current does not finish unless the person who was separated from the boat is back in contact with it.
Therefore when a boat is swept across the finishing by the current, it finishes if the person who was separated from the boat is back in contact with it.
Submission 165-18
Rule 47.2
A submission from the Chairman of the Racing Rules Committee
Purpose
To address questions involving a boat that loses a crew member overboard and then either
continues to sail the race or finishes before that person is back in contact with the boat.
Proposal
Change rule 47.2 as follows:
47.2 No person on board shall intentionally leave, except when ill or injured, or to help a
person or vessel in danger, or to swim. A person leaving the boat by accident or to swim
shall be back in contact with the boat before the crew resumes sailing the boat to
the next mark or finishes
on board before the boat continues in the race.Current Position
As above.
Reason
The second sentence of rule 47.2 has been in the racing rules, essentially unchanged, since 1965.
The intent of that sentence is that, if a crew member accidently or while swimming, is separated
from the boat, that person must be recovered before the boat continues in the race. This rule was
intended to avoid the following tactic used in courses with one windward leg followed by one
downwind leg: Boats would start with a crew of, say, eight persons so that they had ample
weight to keep the boat flat on the windward leg. Then, after rounding the windward mark, five
persons would swim away from the boat (and not be recovered by the boat), thereby lightening
the boat for the downwind run to the finish.
Problems of interpretation of the rule have arisen in situations in which a boat capsizes and a
person becomes separated from the boat when boats are on a downwind leg and windblown or
there is current setting the boats toward the next mark or the finishing line. Under today’s
wording of rule 47.2’s second sentence, three questions have arisen:
(1) If the current carries the boat across the finishing line before the person is recovered, should be boat be scored as having
finished?
(2) If, between the time the boat capsizes and the time the person is reunited with the boat, the boat has moved closer to the finishing line, has the boat ‘continued in the race’ during that time interval?
(3) If the answer to Question 2 is ‘Yes’, is the boat required to sail back to the
point at which the person became separated from the boat before the boat ‘continues in the race’?
Under the current wording of rule 47.2’s second sentence, these three questions have no clear
answer.
Under the proposal, the answers are clear.
(1) The boat that is swept across the line by the current does not finish unless the person who was separated from the boat is back in contact with it. (Also, note: When a boat is capsized, a crew member in the water but in contact with the boat
would surely be considered to be ‘in normal position’.)
(2) Question (2) will be moot under the proposal. Provided the person is back in contact with the boat when the boat resumes sailing the course, the boat will not break rule 47.2.
(3) The proposed wording clearly would not require the boat to sail back to the place where the person became separated from the boat before continuing in the race.
However, the submission you include and the resulting rule 48 has “… or finishes” in it.
I can not find that changed/correcting wording in my copies of the RRS. If “or finishes” can be found in 48 … then I agree it’s clear and our entire discussion would be moot.
The versions I have only contain, “.. resumes sailing the boat to the next mark”
PS: Note that I just discovered that the WS App for the rules books only provides access to Ver 1 of Changes and Corrections to RRS. There are 3 versions online here..
Strangely enough Ver 1 is not available at the above link, but is in the app.
Looks like Ver 1 corrections are incorporated in the RRS downloadable in the app.Yup. In the Submission, didn't make it into the final rule.
I'm guessing Council though it was superfluous because there was always going to be a finishing mark.
Well there usually is a finishing mark.
Strangely enough Ver 1 is not available at the above link, but is in the app.
Looks like Ver 1 corrections are incorporated in the RRS downloadable in the app.I have a download copy of v1, and I can't open v3 from the page you linked, but I can't see any changes to rule 48.
https://www.sailing.org/inside-world-sailing/rules-regulations/racing-rules-of-sailing/
Appears to include Changes v1 to v3
Revision History in the App says updated with changes to v4 at 13 Mar 23
Your submission ref does make it clear that this ambiguity was known, but decided not to clarify it for some reason.
I had the thought occur to me when reading the statements that capsizing and being in the water is a normal position for dingy sailing. It’s part of the nature of dingy racing.
So, could question of a boat finishing without contact with any crew be more fundamental?
Isn’t the entire concept (and fundamental nature) of racing sailboats dependent upon the idea of a “competitor” influencing how a boat moves through the wind and water to progress a boat over a course?
Where do you think this all leaves the discussion?
PS: Corrections V3 seems was accidentally uploaded in .DOCX form instead of as a PDF.
What ambiguity? I can't see any ambiguity, but let it pass.
Once the definition of finish omitted reference to in normal position, that's a red herring.
I don't think the rules drafters really thought about solo dinghies, or all crew overboard
But
Given the provenance of the old Case 1, and the 2008 Q&A that both allowed a boat to finish with at least one crew member not in contact with the boat at all, that has now been tightened up to require all crew members to be in contact with the boat, i think the rules drafters would have been pretty happy that to get to a position where the boat could drift across the finishing line, the crew had done quite enough 'influencing how the boat moves' to deserve a place. Note also that crew in contact with a boat can and, if the finishing line is that close, probably are doing quite a lot to 'influence how the boat moves.
I remember as a kid a mate of mine went off the back of his VJ
And finished the race towed behind the boat hanging onto the mainsheet horse with one hand and the other clamped over the rudder stock, steering by wrist action, with his crew hiking flat out on the banana board, yelling 'Hang on there Dougie, we're winning'.
All that said, it seems a boat can finish without a competitor in contact with it. I’m out of approaches to try.
Sorry, I spent 15 years of my life wrangling a standard form contract where the difference between 'ambiguity', 'inconsistency', 'discrepancy' and 'omission' had million dollar consequences.
An ambiguity is a locution that is capable of bearing two meanings.
There's no ambiguity, but there are some problems.
The problem is not the deletion of 'or finishes', as long as there is a finishing mark then the rule as published will work. So, OK there is a problem with finishing lines that don't have any finishing marks.
OK, now I've got your point.
I agree.
It may be that a crewless boat finishes but necessarily breaks RRS 48.2, and requires a protest to be penalised.
I think the solution is for the rules to say that a boat that does not comply with RRS 48.2 and crosses the finishing line does not finish. This could be put either in rule 48, or the definition of finish.
The “ambiguity” (forgive me) to me is whether the WSRC ‘intended’ that such a crewless-boat would finish … or did they think that such a boat would not finish and the phrase “sail the boat to the next mark” took care of it.
I think that Council assumed that there would always be a finishing mark so that a boat about to finish would be sailing to that as the next mark and so 'or finishes' was superfluous.
It's not a problem as long as there is a finishing mark, and really finishing lines without any marks are pretty unusual.
The RRC and Council often make changes to wording in the original submissions: you can usually track these by looking at the Minutes of the relevant meetings. Unfortunately the comments in the Study Version don't always pick these up, and are often a bit cryptic.
I think the RRC just did not contemplate, a sailor of a solo crewed boat going overboard, or all crew going overboard.
I also note that the Submission and the rule focus on conditions applicable to boat that does finish. It sort of assumes that when crew are overboard and not in contact with the boat she does not finish, but that's not what the Definition Finish says.
Both Mark T’s interpretation of “sailing” earlier in the thread and Q/A #2 are in agreement that a boat capsized is not “sailing” .. as compared to “continued in the race” as previously worded.
Q2/A2 in submission ..
Unfortunately the intent is unclear without “ .. or finish” and have to agree with Mark’s earlier interpretation (not that it’s unfortunate that I agree with Mark of course LoL).
Mark wrote …
Maybe we need to ask the fundamental question: is it an issue if a boat crosses the finish line and are given a place whilst the crew are in the process of recovering from a capsize? To my mind its difficult to think of a situation where the crew would gain an advantage by not recovering the boat as fast as possible. If they did anything like paddling the boat over the line then propulsion rules/dair sailing would deal with it. The only caveat would be if a capsized boat was being blown downwind faster than a detached crew member could swim (not at all an unlikely scenario). One might argue, I suppose, that if my "sailing the course" suggest were adopted, a boat could not finish if she wasn't sailing the course when she crossed the line.
That is that a boat that crosses the finishing line with all her crew in contact with her finishes and complies with rule 48. and if any crew are not in contact with her she does not comply with rule 48 and does not finish.
The problem lies with the with the effect of the Submission, the pre 2021 rule and Definition, Finish, and the 2021 amendments.
The Submission, old Case 1, and the 2008 Q&A all rely on the, in my opinion wrong, assumption that a boat that crosses the finishing line with one or more crew not in contact with the boat can be regarded as not having finished.
Under the pre 2021 Definition, Finish there was a reference to 'crew ... in normal position' as follows:
A boat finishes when any part of her hull, or crew or equipment in normal position, crosses the finishing line
Much of the discussion has relied on this to say that the Definition requires all the crew to be in normal position, that is, at least on board or in contact with the boat, when she crosses the finishing ilne.
Looking more carefully at the Definition, it can be seen that the 'in normal position' does not refer to all the crew but refers to 'the part of the crew ... [that first] crosses the finishing line.
So even under the old Definition, whether or not crew were on board in accordance with rule 48 had no effect on whether the boat finished.
This is all the moreso under the new Definition, Finish referring to hull.
What is needed is a rule that expressly says that a boat that crosses the finishing line but does not comply with rule 48 has not finished.
What rule says that at any time while racing a boat is required to be 'sailing'?
The [proposed] inclusion of “..or finishes” at the end of Rule 48.2 doesn’t say that they don’t finish, but made it clear that such a boat breaks that rule. One could infer that the [suggested] inclusion of “.. or finishes” in 48.2 implies and assumes a boat can finish … otherwise the “or finishes” condition would be inapplicable.
You have a rule. A boat that breaks 48.2 should retire.
We need to apply the rules as written and as interpreted by the world sailing cases and calls. .
Provided there is a finishing mark, a boat, having rounded or passed the last mark before the finish, and sailing towards the finishing line is necessarily sailing towards the finishing mark, and hence sailing 'to the next mark' .
Reference to 'or finishes' in rule 48 is superfluous (as long as there is a finishing mark).
Mark,
I follow your logic, but I take issue with your general statement that 'A crew is never sailing a capsized boat'.
A crew member that is hanging onto a capsized boat may well be capable of controlling, to some extent her direction, even if in doing so she breaks rule 42.
I would be comfortable with 'A crew that is not in contact with a capsized boat is not sailing it.
Happy to discuss, of course
As drafted in the submission the rule said
Parsing this out carefully it renders
A person leaving the boat by accident or to swim shall be back in contact with the boat before
Edit
Seems to be a grammar glitch there: the subject of 'finishes' appears to be 'crew', not 'boat'.
So the draft rule covered a boat that finished (for example)
Deleting 'or finishes' has the effect that the condition 'crew resume sailing the boat towards the next mark' applies without exception, so that, as others have posted, if there are no crew sailing the boat towards the next mark, the rule doesn't operate.
I'd also remark that the Q&A 1 in the submission is wrong.
Q(1) If the current carries the boat across the finishing line before the person is recovered, should be boat be scored as having finished?
A(1) The boat that is swept across the line by the current does not finish unless the person who was separated from the boat is back in contact with it.
Whether or not crew are in contact with the boat does not affect any part of Definition Finish. When a boat with a crew not in contact with the boat crosses the finishing line, she finishes. All that has happened is that she may have broken RRS 47.2, and on valid protest might be penalised.