Forum: The Racing Rules of Sailing

Crossing a finish/start line half way through a race during the start of another class

Rene Nusse
Nationality: Australia
Certifications:
  • Club Race Officer
  • Club Judge
  • Umpire In Training
Someone asked me if a boat should be disqualified when it crosses the start/finish line halfway through its race whilst another class is about the start their race on the same line. Flags are displayed for the next class to start in 1 minute. Any thoughts?
Created: 23-Oct-19 12:15

Comments

Jim Champ
Nationality: United Kingdom
0
It's by no means unknown for Sailing Instructions to prohibit crossing a start line mid race, but I don't believe there's anything in vanilla RRS. 
Created: 23-Oct-19 12:54
P
John D. Farris
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0
Can you describe the course to be sailed?
Created: 23-Oct-19 13:01
P
Daniele Romano
Nationality: Italy
Certifications:
  • Regional Race Officer
  • Regional Judge
2
In my view NO, unless there is a rule in the SI (or, rarely, NoR) that states otherwise.
For instance, in the SI that I write (for dinghies), I usually include an instruction, marked [DP], that states that during the starting procedure of a fleet, the boats that are not part of that fleet shall keep at 100m (sometimes 50m) distance from the starting line, in each direction. In such a case, a boat which crosses the start line halfway through its race whilst another class is about to start its race on the same line may be assigned a Discretional Penalty.
This provision is quite common for ILCA/Laser, that usually race on a trapezoid course. It can be implemented easily also in windward/leeward races, provided that the pin end of the staring line is not the leeward mark.
On the contrary, in a windward/leeward course, where the pin is also the leeward mark, this SI shall be included very carefully!  

Further example.
In an Optimist race, where the finish line is very close to mark 2 of the Optimist course (if you don't know how such a course is designed, please let me know), most times there is an SI that defines the finish line as an obstruction for the boats that are not finishing. Consequently, the boats that cross the finish line while on their run leg, may be disqualified.
Similarly, if you want to forbid the crossing of the starting line strictly, a solution could be for the SI to include an instruction that defines the starting line as an obstruction for the boats that are not starting.
Mind that in a windward/leeward course, where the pin is also the leeward mark, the latter provision would be unfeasible. 
Created: 23-Oct-19 13:06
P
Anthony Pelletier
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0
There is nothing in the rulebook that would DSQ anyone for doing that.
Typically, with multiple classes with the Start line in the middle of the course, I write a rule in the SI's that says that after starting, the Start line is restricted and constitutes an obstruction to competitors. 
That part about the line being an obstruction is a new addition and is considered the better way to do it. It makes clear the responsibilities of other boats near the Start  line in terms of providing room etc. 
I don't put a distance in, as one other poster has said they do. I would find that hard to enforce (how sure could I be that a boat was actually 90m from the line and therefore should be DSQ'ed).

Created: 23-Oct-19 13:40
Ed Vincent
Nationality: Australia
Certifications:
  • National Judge
  • National Race Officer
1
A really good argument for setting the start and finish lines outside the general field of play. Then this issue is (almost) never a problem. I'm not a fan of setting start/finish lines within a windward leg (or any leg, for that matter). It often ends in tears.
Created: 23-Oct-19 14:10
P
Daniele Romano
Nationality: Italy
Certifications:
  • Regional Race Officer
  • Regional Judge
1
I agree, Anthony, the stand-off distance is very difficult to assess... as the three hull lengths which define the zone may be difficult to assess exactly.
Thus I add the notation [DP] when I fix the stand-off distance. Such an SI gives the competitors two messages:
  1. when you are not starting, the order of magnitude of your keep-off distance from the starting line is xyz
  2. don't mess with the starting fleet if you are not starting! :-)
It works, promise.
But I find your approach very interesting! I will consider it, next time.

Now I don't want to hijack this thread. Bottom line is: there is nothing in the RRS that prescribes to disqualify a boat that crosses the start/finish line as described in Rene's question.

Cheers :-)

 
Created: 23-Oct-19 14:35
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Anthony Pelletier
Certifications:
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1
Daniele,
I like your wording. I think it's perfect for a casual club race where everyone is there to have fun. I have no doubt it works in terms of keeping such racers away from the S/F line. My concern would be in a more cut-throat fleet. What would I do if one competitor protested another claiming s/he had sailed within 75M of the line? What would I do if I thought a competitor was repeatedly taking advantage of others by sailing a shorter course around the line--pushing the limits of what 100m looks like?

We added the "obstruction" part following some arguments by Dave Perry that without it, it would not be clear what the obligations other competitors were with respect to rule 19. The argument is that the line doesn't fit the definition of Obstruction because you have the option of passing either side. A leeward boat at the pin end could say to a windward boat "you can pass at the boat end. I have no obligation to let you pass inside me" (I realize that your distance rule takes care of that problem elegantly--I do like it from that point of view)"

Maybe I just should work with a better class of sailors. 


Created: 23-Oct-19 15:15
Mike Bracket
Nationality: United States
0
Recently sailed in a regatta where this issue was prevalent.  Start/Finish line was set in the middle of the Windward/Leeward course.  I asked the PRO if the Start/Finish line was "closed" at the skippers meeting because there was nothing in the SIs.  PRO said no it was not closed....
as you might imagine, in almost every one of the 7 races, there was boats crossing either the start or finish lines when other fleets were starting.  In two races, as I crossed the finish line while sailing to weather in the middle of the race, R/C asked if I was finishing.  Seems to me that the PRO made it very confusing/difficult for the RC by not making the line an obstruction.... 
Created: 23-Oct-19 15:49
P
Daniele Romano
Nationality: Italy
Certifications:
  • Regional Race Officer
  • Regional Judge
1
@Anthony
I regret that I didn't state it earlier. I'll try to fix it now.
I usually add the notation [NP] as well, while in the preamble of the SI, it is stated that "the notation '[NP]' in a rule of the SIs means that a boat may not protest another boat for breaking that rule. This changes RRS 60.1(a)."
Therefore, the scenario that you are cleverly depicting does not apply, actually.
I'm really sorry for my unintentional omission.

Both approaches have their weaknesses... 
As I said, the approach that I am following (I don't claim to be its author! ;-) worked for me so far, even at the national selection level, for ILCA, RS Feva, and Optimist, or 470 at the European Master level, with the support of the Observers appointed for Rule 42.
Nevertheless, I take the beauty of your approach, which is much more formal and lean than "mine", and I promise that I will consider it for further implementation.

I suggest we continue this discussion offline. Please feel free to send me a PM if you deem it necessary. If you don't mind, I will do the same to exchange with you my follow-up.

Created: 23-Oct-19 16:06
John Palizza
Nationality: United States
Certifications:
  • Regional Race Officer
  • Regional Judge
1
There is nothing in the RRS that prohibits sailing through a start/finish line on your way to sailing the course. You have to write it into the Sailing Instructions, or if you want to put it somewhere where it is unlikely to be read or remembered by the competitors, the Notice of Race.
I work a lot of regattas that are set up as windward/leeward courses with a mid-course start/finish line. This is usually done due to a limited number of mark set/safety boats. (Also, I much prefer to have the recording of finishes on my boat where we can have multiple recorders and I can dictate the finishes into a recording.) When I first started doing multi-class regattas as a PRO, I would write in a prohibition against crossing the start/finish line except when starting or finishing. What I found was that there was ALWAYS someone who didn't get the word and would sail through the start/finish line. I even had a competitor lose a regatta because of that error. Oftentimes the violation occurred when other classes were not starting or finishing, so enforcing the violation served no good purpose.  Now I avoid using the prohibition, although I do ask competitors to keep clear of the start/finish area unless starting or finishing at the competitors meeting. It seems to work.
Created: 23-Oct-19 16:07
Calum Polwart
Nationality: United Kingdom
0
To point out the obvious... On a handicap race it can be necessary to sail through the line each lap...
Created: 23-Oct-19 18:12
P
John D. Farris
Certifications:
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@Calum, I want to see the course set up to be sailed that Rene is asking us to discuss. We need the facts. 
Created: 23-Oct-19 18:43
Calum Polwart
Nationality: United Kingdom
0
Indeed. The phrase "halfway through the their race" suggests to me this is a start/finish gate on a windward leg (like a handicap race)

In which case all sorts of crazy happens if you can't sail through while a fleet are starting, but can you sail through 10s after they started? Depending on the length of the line that's enough to give someone an advantage!

OR did he mean sail through the start-finish gate on the downwind...? That is commonly prohibited in the SIs.
Created: 23-Oct-19 20:25
P
John Allan
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Calum Polwart
Said Created: Today 20:25
Indeed. The phrase "halfway through the their race" suggests to me this is a start/finish gate on a windward leg (like a handicap race)

In which case all sorts of crazy happens if you can't sail through while a fleet are starting, but can you sail through 10s after they started? Depending on the length of the line that's enough to give someone an advantage!

This can be solved by use of the Orange Flag on the starting vessel, with a SI providing that while the Orange (or Blue) Flag is displayed boats not starting or finishing shall not sail through the line.

OR did he mean sail through the start-finish gate on the downwind...? That is commonly prohibited in the SIs.

Unless the race committee is compelled to set the leeward mark or gate exceptionally close to the starting/finishing line, I don't see the need to write a SI closing the starting/finishing line just to cover the unusual case that a boat may overrun the leeward mark/gate.
Created: 23-Oct-19 21:34
Calum Polwart
Nationality: United Kingdom
0
In which case all sorts of crazy happens if you can't sail through while a fleet are starting, but can you sail through 10s after they started? Depending on the length of the line that's enough to give someone an advantage!

This can be solved by use of the Orange Flag on the starting vessel, with a SI providing that while the Orange (or Blue) Flag is displayed boats not starting or finishing shall not sail through the line.

But a boat headed towards the line when no flag is displayed, but a flag is displayed as they get closer then they then need to detour round.   The boat further back takes a shorter detour and may gain a place.  Or vice versa may happen if the flag is up the leading boat has to sail round the line and a trailing boat can sail through if the flag drops.

Unless the race committee is compelled to set the leeward mark or gate exceptionally close to the starting/finishing line, I don't see the need to write a SI closing the starting/finishing line just to cover the unusual case that a boat may overrun the leeward mark/gate.

You are assuming the line is 'below'  the leeward mark.  Here is a roughly to scale 40 minute triangle sausage course with start finish midway up the beat for a 420 race with 40 boats

Should the line be closed for downwind from 1 to 3? Or indeed, if it's being used for multiple starts from 3 to 1.



The obvious answer is to not set the course. But if the course is set, the answer is it's only DSQ if the SSI said it can be.
Created: 23-Oct-19 22:06
John Christman
Nationality: United States
Certifications:
  • Club Race Officer
  • National Judge
  • National Umpire
0
As has been said, there is nothing in the RRS that prevents a boat from crossing the lines.  However, limiting this is one of those things that is simple on the face of it and then the details kill you.

Consider John A's option of saying "boats not starting or finishing shall not sail through the line".  :-) I'm not picking on John, what he has suggested is all too common.  There are just all sorts of unintended consequences with this kind of SI.

Consider:

  • What if a boat crosses the line 4 minutes before their start while taking a wind reading, is OCS and not actually starting?  When does the restriction start, stop, and then start again?  What if a boat is late for their start?
  • What if a boat breaks a rule shortly before the finish line, crosses the finish line but is not actually finishing, does turns, goes back across the finish line, and then crosses it to actually finish?  Did they break the rule twice?
  • What if the line exists because the flag is displayed and no one is actually racing, i.e. before any racing has begun or between races?
  • What if two or more boats are approaching a line that they are not allowed to cross?
  • Is the line an obstruction and therefore rules 19 & 20 apply? If it isn't an obstruction, then they don't.
  • It is not against the rules for a boat to cross an obstruction line or enter and obstruction area.  Rules 19 & 20 only tell you about what one boat's obligations are to other boats (room to pass or tack) but not that they can't go there.
  • What is the penalty if a boat crosses the line?  Can they unwind?  Can they take a turns penalty?  Is it a [DP]?  Is it a DSQ?
  • Who should be allowed to protest, i.e. [NP]?
  • What if one boat is not racing and one boat is as they approach the line?  What rules and penalties apply?  A boat not racing cannot be penalized for breaking a rule of part 2.  What if she doesn't give a boat room at the obstruction?  She might break rules 19 or 20 but can't be penalized for forcing another boat to cross the line.  Will exoneration apply?

Once you think about all that and then try and come up with wording that won't get you in trouble, you have probably created new problems.

The attached article talks about the line being an obstruction or restricted and what the rule 19 & 20 consequences are.

Created: 23-Oct-19 22:45
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John Allan
Certifications:
  • National Judge
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1
Calum,

Was that diagram from a proprietary app?  Which one.  It looks neat,.
Created: 23-Oct-19 22:47
P
John Allan
Certifications:
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Calum Polwart
Said Created: Today 22:06
In which case all sorts of crazy happens if you can't sail through while a fleet are starting, but can you sail through 10s after they started? Depending on the length of the line that's enough to give someone an advantage!

This can be solved by use of the Orange Flag on the starting vessel, with a SI providing that while the Orange (or Blue) Flag is displayed boats not starting or finishing shall not sail through the line.

But a boat headed towards the line when no flag is displayed, but a flag is displayed as they get closer then they then need to detour round.   The boat further back takes a shorter detour and may gain a place.  Or vice versa may happen if the flag is up the leading boat has to sail round the line and a trailing boat can sail through if the flag drops.

I take your point.


Unless the race committee is compelled to set the leeward mark or gate exceptionally close to the starting/finishing line, I don't see the need to write a SI closing the starting/finishing line just to cover the unusual case that a boat may overrun the leeward mark/gate.

You are assuming the line is 'below'  the leeward mark.

Yes I was.  I misread your post.

 Here is a roughly to scale 40 minute triangle sausage course with start finish midway up the beat for a 420 race with 40 boats

Should the line be closed for downwind from 1 to 3? Or indeed, if it's being used for multiple starts from 3 to 1.

The obvious answer is to not set the course. But if the course is set, the answer is it's only DSQ if the SSI said it can be.

I dream of seeing forty 420s on a starting line.

TBH, I haven't seen a Gold Cup triangle course for 30 years, certainly not since becoming a race officer.

On your example, its going to be 20 minutes before the first fleet to start does their triangle and gets back to the starting area, so the RO can get another 2 or three starts away before there is a problem.

Ok, that turns to custard if he has a couple of postponements or general recalls.

So, you're saying just close the dawn line and leave it closed.

I'm coming round.
Created: 23-Oct-19 23:11
Calum Polwart
Nationality: United Kingdom
0
It's from an App called "Beat length calculator"

It's using the data the RYA (UK) has in spreadsheets - but I assume is the same data others may have as it's not a UK author.

Times for -
Laser
2.4
29er
420
470
49er
Finn
Kite
Mirror
Optimist
Feva
Topper
Nacra 
And a few that I don't recognise


Courses:
W/L, Triangle, Trap, and Optimist (modified Trap)

With most variants of where the start/finish sits. 

Can adjust angles etc.
Can adjust windspeed
Can adjust number of boats on line

You enter a target race time. You tell it number of beats and it gives you distances for legs.  Slightly different from the RYA tablets which are designed to be static.

It does not do mark positions by GPS (I've played with another that does but I preferred this). I've never found for dinghy racing giving co-ordinates for a mark to be helpful. Much simpler for everyone to Mark a fixed point (the app lets you use middle of start line and for some courses middle of w/l gate.

I only discovered it about a month ago and haven't had a chance to use it in anger yet.  They have a sister app that does flag sequence etc and can interface to a Bluetooth horn relay that they can supply. It looks nice. But I have a different app (Dinghy Sailing Race Control)  that can interact via WiFi and will take times for handicap races etc.

Android and iPhone versions available.
Free.
No adds.









Created: 23-Oct-20 00:01
P
John Allan
Certifications:
  • National Judge
  • Regional Race Officer
0
Thanks Calum
Created: 23-Oct-20 05:32
Rene Nusse
Nationality: Australia
Certifications:
  • Club Race Officer
  • Club Judge
  • Umpire In Training
0
As requested by some, and for clarification (if any is required), the course was a simple triangle with the start boat in line with the first and second marks. I guess commenting on the course design is superfluous as it was what it was and this is now addressed appropriately. In essence, all boats are sailing their proper course... See graphic.
Created: 23-Oct-20 05:36
P
John Allan
Certifications:
  • National Judge
  • Regional Race Officer
0
John Christman
Said Created: Thu 22:45
As has been said, there is nothing in the RRS that prevents a boat from crossing the lines.  However, limiting this is one of those things that is simple on the face of it and then the details kill you.

Consider John A's option of saying "boats not starting or finishing shall not sail through the line".  :-) I'm not picking on John, what he has suggested is all too common.  There are just all sorts of unintended consequences with this kind of SI.

I was aware of the problems with the language.  I was being quick and dirty.

There have been a couple of threads about this

"Closed" line on a course

Closed LIne and Rules 18 and 19

I think the wording proposed by John Siegel in the first of those threads is quite elegant

John Siegel Created: 18-Apr-09 16:41
After starting and before finishing, a boat shall not cross the starting/finishing line, which shall be an obstruction during this period.

You could add

After the first warning signal boats that are not racing shall not cross the starting/finishing line.

Thanks for the useful thoughts below.

Consider:

Under my imperfect wording "boats not starting or finishing shall not sail through the line".

  • What if a boat crosses the line 4 minutes before their start while taking a wind reading, is OCS and not actually starting?  When does the restriction start, stop, and then start again?  What if a boat is late for their start?

@ -4 minutes she is neither starting nor finishing:  she shall not sail through the line.

When does the restriction start?:  See my suggested additional wording above:  starts at the first warning signal.

When does the restriction end?:  When the line shuts down.

A boat that is late for her start is 'starting'  when she is at the starting line.  She's ok.

  • What if a boat breaks a rule shortly before the finish line, crosses the finish line but is not actually finishing, does turns, goes back across the finish line, and then crosses it to actually finish?  Did they break the rule twice?

No.  She finishes when she crosses the finishing line for the first time.  She 'unfinishes' when she takes her penalty.  If she sails from the post-course side to the course side of the finishing line through the line, she will break the rule, but not otherwise.

  • What if the line exists because the flag is displayed and no one is actually racing, i.e. before any racing has begun or between races?

See my suggested additional wording above:  starts at the first warning signal.

  • What if two or more boats are approaching a line that they are not allowed to cross?

See the John Siegel wording.  IMHO when a SI designates an area or line that boats shall not sail through, SI should also expressly say that ti is an obstruction.  We had an Australian Appeal that said the contrary, that an area that boats were forbidden from sailing in was impliedly an obstruction.  I would prefer express wording.

  • Is the line an obstruction and therefore rules 19 & 20 apply? If it isn't an obstruction, then they don't.

See above.

  • It is not against the rules for a boat to cross an obstruction line or enter and obstruction area.  Rules 19 & 20 only tell you about what one boat's obligations are to other boats (room to pass or tack) but not that they can't go there.

Agree

  • What is the penalty if a boat crosses the line?  Can they unwind?  Can they take a turns penalty?  Is it a [DP]?  Is it a DSQ?

So there are two different cases:

  1. where the restriction is just for the convenience of the race committee
  2. where the restriction, as in the Gold Cup course, is an attempt to protect boats in starting sequence from interference by boats that have started and are racing in a different division.

Case 1 sucks, shouldn't have been put in the SI, but should probably be DP NP, and, being under the direct observation of the race committee could be 'by the race committee without a hearing', but I'm uncomfortable with a race committee giving DP.  Maybe SP?

Case 2, to some extent is dealt with by RRS 23.2 but there is a problem for boats before their start:  arguably a boat in her starting sequence but before starting is not sailing on any leg at all and the rule does not apply.  If the rule breaking boat does interfere with a starting boat, she should be disqualified, and the boat interfered with should be able to protes her, otherwise maybe she doesn't deserve disualification, except to the extent that she has wilfully broken the rule.  So I guess DP,  but not NP.

  • Who should be allowed to protest, i.e. [NP]?

See above.

  • What if one boat is not racing and one boat is as they approach the line?  What rules and penalties apply?  A boat not racing cannot be penalized for breaking a rule of part 2.

A boat not racing certainly can be penalised for breaking RRS 23.1, and under the same circumstances I don't see why she should not be penalised for breaking a SI intended to have a similar effect.  DP should cover it.

  • What if she doesn't give a boat room at the obstruction?  She might break rules 19 or 20 but can't be penalized for forcing another boat to cross the line.  Will exoneration apply?

Not RRS 43.1(b) because that only gives exoneration for cetain specific RRS breaches.

If she is not given room, is she not compelled to cross the boundary?  RRS 43.1(a)?

Nothing in RRS 43.1 says a boat has to be penalised.  exoneration is not the same as redress.


Once you think about all that and then try and come up with wording that won't get you in trouble, you have probably created new problems.

I generally agree that the problems closed lines are intended to address can probably be managed around in different ways, once the race committee accepts that they shouldn't be messing commpetitors around just to make their job easy.  Like, don't use a Gold Cup layout with short legs so that boats already racing will catch up with subsequent starts, and don't put your finishing line too close to the gate.

Sometimes this might be unavoidable and then a closed line might be useful,  I think the wording suggested above might work, but would welcome some more discussion.


The attached article talks about the line being an obstruction or restricted and what the rule 19 & 20 consequences are.

Start-Finish line - obstruction-restricted.docx 91 KB

You can't embed files other than images here.

Can you put a Dropbox or Google Drive link in?
Created: 23-Oct-21 01:04
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