Forum: The Racing Rules of Sailing

Non-racing witnesses - Appendix E

Johan Bergkvist
Nationality: Australia
What is the purpose of the last sentence of E6.8.e: "If the witness is a competitor who was not acting as an observer, he shall also have been scheduled to race in the relevant heat"? In a multi-fleet event a number of skippers, who would otherwise make excellent witnesses, are now barred from witnessing. I don't understand why.
Created: 23-Oct-25 13:20

Comments

Gordon Davies
Nationality: Ireland
Certifications:
  • International Judge
0
In radio sailing competitors are not in their boats. They may be some distance from their boat, and are usually confined to a specific control area.
The guiding principle is that evidence and the finding of facts should be based on what the competitors can actually see themselves. This gives the first part of the rule : any witness shall have been in the control area at the time of the incident.

Competitors not sailing in the heat should not be in the control area, where they can obstruct the view or impede the passage of competitors, observers or race officials. As they cannot be witnesses, there is no reason for competitors not sailing in the heat to be in the control area.
Applying these principles also means that video evidence not taken inside the control area will not be accepted.

There are many events in which spectators can have a far better view of a mark rounding than the competitors. At one world championships competitors were standing on a small extended pontoon, over 70 metres from the windward mark, while spectators were sitting on the shore some 10-15 metres away. It would have been extremely unfair to establish facts based on the evidence of those spectators, when the competitors involved had a completely different view of the incident.

Unfortunately, judges and umpires have repeatedly maintained that rule observance breaks down once marks are more that about 70 metres from competitors. At this distance sail numbers are difficult to read, and judgement of angles (for instance the lay-line) and distances becomes impaired. However, race officers continue to want to set perfect courses, and some claim to have eyesight superior to that of common mortals. As a result, even at world  championships we continue to see marks laid far outside the limits of reasonable vision. If competitors and umpires cannot read sail numbers of boats rounding marks then the marks are too far away.
Created: 23-Oct-25 14:17
P
John Allan
Certifications:
  • National Judge
  • Regional Race Officer
0
Gordon,

Thanks for the background to these rules.

I've got to take issue with a couple of things you have said about fairness.

Gordon Davies
Said Created: Today 14:17
In radio sailing competitors are not in their boats. They may be some distance from their boat, and are usually confined to a specific control area.
The guiding principle is that evidence and the finding of facts should be based on what the competitors can actually see themselves. This gives the first part of the rule : any witness shall have been in the control area at the time of the incident.

The Radio Sailing community is, of course free to limit the way they deal with racing as they wish, but this isn't a universal 'principle'.

I suggest that, from a judges point of view the universal principle is the best evidence rule.

 Competitors not sailing in the heat should not be in the control area, where they can obstruct the view or impede the passage of competitors, observers or race officials. As they cannot be witnesses, there is no reason for competitors not sailing in the heat to be in the control area.
Applying these principles also means that video evidence not taken inside the control area will not be accepted.

I don't think this follows.  In fleet racing, video evidence will often be from a different point of view from that of competitors, and may be highly conclusive, and should be readily accepted, subject to the usual limitations of integrity and so on.

There are many events in which spectators can have a far better view of a mark rounding than the competitors. At one world championships competitors were standing on a small extended pontoon, over 70 metres from the windward mark, while spectators were sitting on the shore some 10-15 metres away. It would have been extremely unfair to establish facts based on the evidence of those spectators, when the competitors involved had a completely different view of the incident.

I strongly disagree with this proposition.  It may have been harsh on the competitors, but a protest committee finding true facts based on best evidence cannot be said to be unfair.
Created: 23-Oct-25 21:56
Johan Bergkvist
Nationality: Australia
0
Gordon, are you saying that the reason for that last sentence in E6.8(e) is to discourage non-sailing skippers from being in the Control Area?
Created: 23-Oct-26 08:26
Gordon Davies
Nationality: Ireland
Certifications:
  • International Judge
0
In racing where the crew is on board, the crew of boats involved in an incident are closest to that incident. In umpired racing, umpires manoeuvre to get a view of any incident that is ALMOST as good as that available to the crew. Witnesses, other than crew on the boats involved, have a more distant view.

General Principle 1 of the WS RS Call Book states:
1 Limitation on Interpretations
In radio sailing the boat and the competitor controlling her are usually separated by some, possibly significant, distance. The competitor may not be well placed to view any incident and to rapidly analyse the relative speed, angle and distance between the boats. Therefore, interpretations of the rules should be appropriate to the conditions and should take account of these limitations.

As judges, we are bound to implement this principle. The first part of RRS E6.8 also respects this principle, so that the information available to make interpretations of the rules takes account of the limitations imposed by the race committee (defining the control area) and the nature of radio sailing diminishing competitors ability to rapidly analyse the relative speed, angle and distance between boats.

Competitors or spectators standing outside the control area may have a widely different view of the incident, seeing the boats from a different angle and:or distance.

The rule concerning witnesses not scheduled in the race this can also be considered as an extension of RRS 60.1 limiting the right to protest. In multi-heat events the majority of competitors are not sailing in the heat that is underway. This rule seeks to limit the number of potential witnesses to competitors who are involved in or saw the incident while they were involved in the heat.

I would add that there is no evidence of a widespread wish among competitors and event organisers to change E6.8. On the contrary there has been vociferous opposition to suggestions, emanating principally from umpires (more used to match racing), to change the rule and allow witnesses and umpires to be outside the control area.
I have been involved, in various ways, with enforcing and updating the rules of radio sailing for many years. We have always applied the principle that the sailors should define the game that they want to play. The rules should be written to allow the game to be played as the sailors wish it to play. Chnaging the rules because some judges and umpires find it difficult to make a decision based on the information available to the competitors at the time of the incident is not a good reason to change the rules.
Created: 23-Oct-26 10:27
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