Question: Encouraging a Protest
Mark Clayton
Nationality: United Kingdom
Hi, New to the forum so if I am asking in the wrong place please let me know.
Involved in a basic water at the mark dispute today (dinghies in still conditions so the discussion was easy)- the usual we both thought we were correct. However, a 3 boat was also present with a clear view who then refused to give a view but was encouraging us to protest each other and they would then give evidence at the protest! Would this be considered unsporting?
Created: 18-Aug-19 19:16
when on a jury I have seen incidents and been called as a witness, but I have not discussed my testimony. I said yes I saw it call me if you wish.
On the contrary Mark, I think this a very nice example of good sportsmanship as defined in the RRS. They are basically encouraging you both to enforce and follow the rules and offering to take time out of their day to help that happen.
- Ang
Strikes me as sportsmanlike of a witness to agree to be a witness...but to NOT to voice a view in advance of a proper hearing by a duly constituted protest committee.
However, the more curious question, and variation on one that has been argued over extensively here, is: Is it unsportsmanlike for a third party boat to not file a protest against a boat that broke a rule. In other words, is it unsportsmanlike for your witness to not file a protest if the two parties decide they will not (assuming she thinks a rule was broken).
High likelihood of one of two boats ahead being DSQ: advantage 3rd boat.
More sportsmanlike to gain just on the one boat ahead who will do 2 turns.
Question: What level of competition was this?
Under 60.1 the boat seeing the incident may protest.
The fundamentals of the sport regarding Sportsmanship and the Rules makes it clear that competitors are expected to enforce the rules.
If you breach a fundamental principle of the sport, surely that is unsporting.
So then turn to 69 for process and requirements.
At least one of the boats in the incident is almost sure to have engaged in a breach of good sportsmanship in failing to obey the rules and in failing to take a penalty. The other boat involved may also be guilty of a breach of good sportsmanship in failing to enforce the rules.
The idea that a breach of a fundamental principle is not a breach of good sportsmanship would be as surreal as Catch 22.
First, in such cases (especially with contact), competitors have surrendered control of their race result to a Jury or PC. One may improve their circumstances by taking a penalty on the water, then going to the room with the incident.
Secondly, it has been my experience that witness testimony is damaging to the calling party as often as it is helpful. As a party, I would only call a witness if I felt that there was a gap in the testimony that could only be closed by my witness’ testimony.
Finally (and perhaps most importantly), neither party will know what this witness is likely to say. If I were a party to this hearing, I would want no part of this witness. Sorry Mark (and all) for going a little off topic with this reply, but most witnesses bring more risk than reward to the presentation of one’s case.
It is the breach that has to be protested, not the failure to take a penalty.
I would expect that the call of "Contact!, someone broke a rule!" would have to be followed very shortly by a hail of "protest".
In fact, if you have time to hail "Contact!, someone broke a rule!" after witnessing a rule breach it would seem that you could have hailed "protest" in that time and so your later hail was not as soon as reasonably possible.
I would like to see any argument as to why a breach of a fundamental principle is not a breach of good sportsmanship.
Years ago in the days before on-water umpiring, I was a 'scribe & runner' in a PC and, after looking all over the club for one of the Parties to a protest, I found the very prominent gentleman in the radio room interviewing a potential witness to discover what the person had seen prior to being called as a witness. Made sense to me then and it still does.
So I support Grant's opinion. We all know that if you have 6 wtness, expect to have 6 different accounts based on their honest recollection of what happened from the 6 different positions from which they saw the incident.
And finally, Now that it's too late to lodge a protest, you could let us all know what you saw and we'll soon give you our 6 different answers.[Well, maybe 2 different answers]
Phil.
Agree ... I shouldn't have put in there waiting for turns ... "Bang!" ... "Contact!, someone broke a rule" .. 4,5,6,7 "Protest!" ...
Agree 100% .. there is a good chance the above gets tossed as invalid .. it would be up to the PC to determine if 8 sec's is too long given the circumstances. Either way, the boats actually involved in the incident and others around who also hear the contact and the 3rd party protest would see support for the self-policing of the rules .. which has its own benefits IMO. - Ang
Might be chiming in a little late but here is my take:
Mark's original scenario was - they were still on the water when the discussion occurred, as was the witness.
Since neither boat hailed "protest" or displayed a protest flag at the first reasonable opportunity, either boat lost the opportunity to launch a valid protest. Also, since they were having a discussion, getting well clear of other boats as soon after the incident as possible (RRS 44.2) was not satisfied either. The witness, who could have protested if they complied with RRS 61.1, did not do so. Not wanting to give an opinion was an option he exercised - but was not unsportsmanlike.
A lesson from this: The game we play has rules and the rules include a method of resolving disagreements arising from the interpretation of the rules. It always amazes me that sailors want boats to obey the rules, while they do not want to follow other parts.
The sad part is, the sailor missed his opportunity to learn by not following all the rules.