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Autonomous Marks
P
Roger Wilson
Nationality: United Kingdom
Certifications:
International Race Officer
Regional Umpire
National Judge
0
Hi, A number of events I am involved in are using Autonomous Marks. These sometimes move whilst boats are rounding them and hit a boat. Should RRS 31 apply? Has anyone got good wording for an SI to manage this?
Created: 23-Dec-14 12:08
Comments
P
Mark Wood
Nationality: United Kingdom
Certifications:
International Race Officer
0
I used the following wording, as a Notice to Competitors, at two recent World Championships (Jury approved!): "The course marks being used are autonomous and will promptly, and automatically, go back to its original position if hit or dragged by either yourself or a fellow competitor. Rule 31 continues to apply."
Created: 23-Dec-14 12:33
John Palizza
Nationality: United States
Certifications:
Regional Race Officer
Regional Judge
1
Here is language I used at a National championship last year: Marks 1, 1a, 2s, 2p are autonomous; these marks will go back to original position if they are dragged or otherwise moved
off station. Routine movement of autonomous marks will not be grounds for redress. This includes minor readjustments
and marks returning to station after having been pushed or dragged away by a competitor.
Created: 23-Dec-14 13:00
P
Roger Wilson
Nationality: United Kingdom
Certifications:
International Race Officer
Regional Umpire
National Judge
0
I like that wording, but wonder why you didn't add "RRS 31 continues to apply"
Created: 23-Dec-14 13:28
John Christman
Nationality: United States
Certifications:
Club Race Officer
National Judge
National Umpire
1
I'm confused by the need for this at all. Marks move around all the time based on wind, waves, current and, especially, after being hit by a competitor. The amount a mark might move is dependent on things like the amount of scope on the anchor line, how hard it was hit, etc. Having judged and umpired events using autonomous marks, including as starting marks, I have not found them to be any more or less susceptible to movement than anchored marks. It is the sailor's responsibility to make sure they leave sufficient room for movement of the mark. About the most you might need to do is include that the marks are autonomous in the description of the mark.
Created: 23-Dec-14 18:02
P
John D. Farris
Certifications:
Measurer in Training
Umpire In Training
Regional Judge
Club Race Officer
0
SAMPLE from 2023 Thistle Class Midwinter East SI: 9. MARKS 9.1. Marks W and O will be an orange tetrahedron and an orange ball, respectively. Marks LS LP (gate marks) will be yellow MarkSetBots, and R will be a large Orange inflatable. The finish pin will be a Green MarkSetBot. If the weather mark changes, the new mark will be a Yellow tetrahedron, and an orange ball for the offset mark. 11. CHANGING THE NEXT LEG OF THE COURSE 11.1. To change the next leg of the course, the race committee will change the position of the next mark as soon as practicable per RRS 33. 11.2. The gate angle may be adjusted without making any signals. This changes RRS RACE SIGNALS. 11.3. The race committee can change a mark by up to 10 degrees or .1 nm without signaling a change. Such change will be announced over VHF 72. This changes RRS 33.
Created: 23-Dec-14 18:12
P
Niko Kotsatos
Certifications:
Judge In Training
0
From a recent Viper 640 event in Sarasota (I did not attend)
8 MARKS 8.1 Windward and leeward gate marks will be orange automated MARKSET BOTS. The offset mark will be a green MARKSET BOT or as an alternate it will be a anchored orange or white floating ball. 8.2 The starting mark and the finish mark will be a orange MARKSET BOT. 8.3 Boats are requested to avoid the area of the start/finish line before starting and after finishing while the MarkSetBot is being navigated into position.
Regarding whether additional info is necessary... I agree it's not strictly necessary, but at minimum saying they are bots, or letting people know they might move back into position after being dragged is probably helpful for the fleet as we first start to see this type of equipment. I'd argue the value is more than the alternate value of a shorter SI, but that's up for debate.
Created: 23-Dec-14 19:11
John Christman
Nationality: United States
Certifications:
Club Race Officer
National Judge
National Umpire
0
I agree, saying they are MarkSetBots in the description, like saying they are cones, balls, etc., and the color tells the sailors what they need to look for. It is a good way of describing them. To tell the sailors that rule 31 still applies seems unnecessary to me. FWIW - people are making these for RC sailing:
Created: 23-Dec-14 19:22
Stephen Watts
Nationality: Australia
0
Just a comment/opinion - I hope that one day RRS will be more sensible and allow boats to touch marks without penalty, like in the 18s on Sydney Harbour. When you consider that a mark is usually only an arbitrary position in the water because it can move metres according to wind or tide. Collisions occur when boats alter course to avoid touching a mark at the last moment.
Created: 23-Dec-14 19:48
John Christman
Nationality: United States
Certifications:
Club Race Officer
National Judge
National Umpire
0
Perhaps a conversation for another thread. There are definitely pros and cons. Should someone be able to force you to hit a mark? What if the mark is a government buoy? What if hitting the mark can cause damage to the boat or mark? Lots to think about.
Created: 23-Dec-14 19:53
Kenneth Jones
Nationality: China
0
When I was racing in SF Bay, many of the races used gov marks. Bad plan to hit one. Best not to tinker with a good rule.
"The course marks being used are autonomous and will promptly, and automatically, go back to its original position if hit or dragged by either yourself or a fellow competitor. Rule 31 continues to apply."
Marks 1, 1a, 2s, 2p are autonomous; these marks will go back to original position if they are dragged or otherwise moved
9. MARKS
9.1. Marks W and O will be an orange tetrahedron and an orange ball, respectively. Marks LS LP (gate marks) will be yellow MarkSetBots, and R will be a large Orange inflatable. The finish pin will be a Green MarkSetBot. If the weather mark changes, the new mark will be a Yellow tetrahedron, and an orange ball for the offset mark.
11. CHANGING THE NEXT LEG OF THE COURSE
11.1. To change the next leg of the course, the race committee will change the position of the next mark as soon as practicable per RRS 33.
11.2. The gate angle may be adjusted without making any signals. This changes RRS RACE SIGNALS.
11.3. The race committee can change a mark by up to 10 degrees or .1 nm without signaling a change. Such change will be announced over VHF 72. This changes RRS 33.