Case 127

US Appeal 26: https://www.racingrulesofsailing.org/cases/938?page=18
US Appeal 16: https://www.racingrulesofsailing.org/cases/908?page=17

CAN Appeal 78: https://www.racingrulesofsailing.org/cases/1371

PS: We also have an old thread here: To be "Racing" or "Finished Racing", That is the Question ...

PS PS: I really dislike that we use “influence”.  It’s too squishy IMO. 

Just some thoughts...

To me,  Appeal 26 is clear, but Case 127 is less so (but eventually clarifies itself)

Appeal 26 shows a boat crossing in the middle of the line and the appeal decision was that both conditions were met (ie. they were no longer racing) once then cleared the line because no mark was influencing they decision (at that point in time) even though they later sailed back toward a finish mark.  I get that, and it makes sense.

Case 127, which does not include a diagram,  uses the phrase "then continues to sail toward a finishing mark".  Does continue mean "a straight line course", or "a straight line course toward the mark, which is a short distance away"  or could is mean "any course that quickly points the boat toward a finish mark"  I think you could reasonably interpret "then continues to sail toward a finishing mark" from Case 127 matching the diagram from Appeal 26.

Fortunatly, Case 127 further clarifies with the last sentence with a scenario that DOES match Appeal 26.  This leaves me with the interpretation of "then continues to sail toward a finishing mark" from Case 127 as being something like "a straight line course toward the mark, which is a short distance away".  Or, put differently, at the moment the boat has "cleared the line", "one of the finish marks is imminently going to affect their decision/course making"

The diagram from the question show that both both had fully cleared the finish line and at the point in time, neither finish mark would affect their course decision, and so they're not racing.

In case the question is in some part about the definition of the English language phrase "clears the finishing line",  I think that should be interpreted that to mean that a boat is no longer racing once all parts of the boat have crossed the finishing line.  In position 3 both boats have cleared the finishing line.

Now, how to establish that definitively (how to prove it), I don't know!

Vincent, that may be true in waters where there is no current. In a current a boat may have sailed a considerable distance from the line and still be required to sail a course to avoid the mark. She has not cleared the line.
In my local club we regularly sail in 2 knots of current

Just to play devil's advocate, could an avoidable collision between boats no longer racing be considered misconduct? 

Gordon re:” She has not cleared the line.“

Seems to me clearing the line is usually the easy determination.  Since it’s the “boat” that clears … not the “hull” ..  it’s a different standard than def: finish.  As soon as no part of a boat intersects the line (“boat” as defined in Terminology) she is clear of the line. 

The marks are the fuzzy call I think usually regarding currents and such and trying to figure out if the boat is being “influenced” by them.  IMO much better to have a more determinable term than “influence”. 

Fair Sailing or Missconduct could be an outcome if you can 'clearly establish' the intent (Rule 2/69).  An avoidable collision because of a failure to keep a lookout, or because of a disagrement about the rules, for example, would not be grounds for 2 or 69. 

Walking through this... appears that both boats "finished" at position 2, then continued on opposite tacks, Red Starboard, Green Port, downwind completely across the finish line, where there was contact of some kind, we don't know the severity or if there was any damage or injury.  The question, then, is... were the boats still "racing"? According to Willis "The Rules in Practice..." You are "racing" until you have cleared the finishing line and the finishing marks, having completed any penalty turns for hitting a finishing mark or exonerating yourself for breaking a rule in relation to another boat. You have cleared the line when no part of your boat or its equipment is straddling the line. ..." Also "When you have finished and cleared the line, you are still subject to the racing rules, but you cannot be penalized for breaking a "when boats meet" rule (unless you interfere with a boat that is still racing or there is an incident resulting in injury or serious damage. (Rules: Part 2 Preamble & 24.1). Noting that this may be a revision error in the Willis book as there is no Rule 24 in the 2021-2024 cycle and is changed to Rule 23.
The preamble (in part) applies to "boats that are sailing in or near the racing area and intend to race, are racing, or have been racing."

Somewhere else, there are notes about avoiding contact in every circumstance, even noodling around between Finish and Start. Provisions of IRPCAS, and/or according to the NoR.

In my mind, from the diagram, Green failed to Stay Clear, and this applies everywhere, all the time.

This reminds me of the quagmire in American Football surrounding what and what is not a 'catch'.  To be a catch you have to catch the ball, maintain control, get your feet down, and then make another 'football move' for the catch to be completed.  What is another 'football move' is the real question.

The cases and appeals give some guidance, but I think what I would look for is there is that the boat makes some sort of 'non-racing' move.  What that is could be something like everyone getting off the rail and preparing to lower or roll up the headsail.  That might be a good indication as they sail away from the middle of the line.  Time and distance from the line also plays a part.

I don't think there will ever be a black and white test for this.  But I would say, falling back on the last point of certainty, that a boat is racing until you are sure she isn't racing.

Looking back to the OP question and looking at the def: racing

Ang - how far back do you have to move them such that they still are racing?  Certainly, at 2 they are still racing as they have not cleared the finish line?  How about 2.25 or 2.50?  Why do the laylines matter?  What if, green could spin to the right at position 2, having completely crossed the line during the spin and sail above the pin.  With your logic, she would finish the moment she is completely across the line as she will have to take no action to avoid the pin once her spin is complete.  But she will still be in close proximity to the line.  Would she be required to give a boat that is still racing room at the pin?

What if we turn this around and it is a windward finish.  A boat just puts her bow across the line and then bears away.  Is she racing until she is just barely sailing away from the line, i.e. one degree beyond parallel to the line?  And what if we add current to the picture and her course over ground takes her outside the pin, but just barely, even though she could never hit it.  The pin is not influencing her course but would she be required to give another boat room at the pin?

The whole thing is just fuzzy.  This is just like trying to figure out when rule 18 turns off.

John C re: “The whole thing is just fuzzy.  This is just like trying to figure out when rule 18 turns off.”

I agree 100%. The introduction of “influence” instead of a firmer measure was IMO unfortunate.  It’s a bit of a soapbox for me … so I don’t want to let myself get on a roll … but which rules apply between boats changes based on that determination, so I think the demarcation line between racing and not-racing should be clear enough so that boats on the water know their status. 

So, getting to your specific questions … given this scenario with a fairly short FL and that they crossed in the middle of it … IMO they stop racing somewhere between 2.5-2.75.  I think it’s clear they are not racing at 3. 

These boats are finishing downwind and continuing past the line in that direction. There is no current in the OP or shown in their paths so there is no apparent reason for them to be concern about turning their boat while still sailing DW and hitting a mark at 3.  That’s why I used the beam reach as a measure … to hit the RC or pin after 3, the boats would have to turn from sailing DDW and start making way to windward (above beam reach).  

If Green spun at 2 and went back across the line on a beat, she’d be heading right for the RC.  As she spun, she’d be pointing directly at the RC (assuming Red is there) … so just past 2 during the spin, she is clear of the line but not of the marks. In that instance I would say she has not cleared the marks until she gets on a layline to clear the RC which might take a tack onto port.  Once sailing away from the RC on a port tack clearly above the pin … she’s no longer being influenced by the marks and no longer racing. 

If we flip this to windward with an opposing current and the boat puts her bow across the middle of the line and falls-off and turns away … yea … she’s no longer racing as she continues to turn away from the line and she is no longer working to avoid the pin. 

The whole discussion of how mark-room applies (or doesn’t apply) between boats who have not-finished, finished and no-longer racing is another kettle of fish that we should avoid as it would be too much of a distraction from the OP. 

PS:  The way def: racing is written, both conditions must be satisfied at the same time … clear line and the marks. 

If a boat clears the line, but is not clear of the marks and recrosses the line again while clearing the marks … she has to also get clear of the line again. 

Both conditions must be true at the same time … it’s not ticking boxes in sequence. 

So if Red wasn’t there and Green spins to port at 2 … toward the pin … she’d possibly clear the line the moment she is parallel to the line, but is heading directly at the pin.  Both conditions are not met. 

As she continues to spin to a port beat, she recrosses the line.  Both conditions are not met. 

She finally clears the line on the beat but how close is she passing the pin?  Depending on how close she is to the pin as she passes it, she might need to sail until the pin is past abeam [or past astern] before it no longer influences her. 

At that point both conditions are satisfied. 

To my mind, the line is clear when a boat still racing can finish, while sailing its proper course, without having to take action to avoid a boat that has finished. That is, a boat still racing does not have its course 'influenced' by one that is not. In Angelo's diagram, around position 2.5, where the sterns of red and green are just clear of the line, but the line is not clear. Which is different from a boat having cleared the line. Given the diagram in the OP, the situation is really, as Joseph Owens points out, about the collision. And as both boats are no longer racing only 14 may apply.

To John C's question about the  windward finish, a boat is still racing, even if she has 'finished', if she continues to sail the course, or sails to unwind a previous error in sailing the course. Or to execute a penalty from a very recent infringement, in which case she will not have finished until she crosses the line having completed that penalty. In bearing away, having just finished (any part of the hull crossing the line) she would still be subject to Rule 23.1.

Ant re: “To my mind, the line is clear when a boat still racing can finish, while sailing its proper course, without having to take action to avoid a boat that has finished. That is, a boat still racing does not have its course 'influenced' by one that is not.”

I can’t see how proximity to other boats in any state of finishing or racing or “proper course” are part of the definition of racing when determining a boat’s ’racing-state’

“Influence” is only referenced to the finishing marks in Case 127 .. not other boats.