I think the only current integration is to export a competitor list from Sailwave and import it into RRS.  But we're happy to automate the integration process if some volunteer wants to figure out the details.  We can create an end point where Sailwave can inject data or generate a request to a Sailwave end point to pull the data....

EDIT:  An automated upload is now in place for Sailwave.  Check out the help page.

CORK Kingston uses both Sailwave and RRS.org.  For most of our events we follow a process of exporting the sailors data from the registration system at the end of registration (at 1800 the day before the first race) and importing it at that time into Sailwave and RRS.org.    From that time on any sail number, name, equipment, etc. changes must be submitted to RRS.org as an equipment substitutions.   The scorer manages those requests and updates RRS.org and Sailwave as needed.  We don't get that many changes.  Here is a link to the type of changes we receive:  https://www.racingrulesofsailing.org/equipment_substitutions/5888/event

Laurent please can you expand on your comment "can someone tell me if there is anyway to integrate Sailwave scoring system to RRS"? 
What sort of integration are you looking for?

FYI 

Please remember Sailwave is free to download and use as long as one condition is met and the developer has a full time job.

I look forward to hearing what integration of Sailwave & RRS you envisage / are looking for.

Kind regards,
Huw

Ooo... Interesting...

A "publish to RRS" list that sent the.competitor list sounds useful.

If there is an API for RRS.org then even if John can't spare the time in SW to do it, it may be possible to have a JavaScript that does it (I've been known to tinker in the past) so you'd publish a list and it would open a browser window and then that would do the APi stuff... 

The immediate questions that arise are how you authenticate race office, how you identify the event, how you identify competitors as unique entities...

I'm not sure if any of that is easier that export CSV file and import CSV file.

SailSys (www.sailsys.com.au) also has the ability to export to CSV in a format that makes uploading into RRS pretty simple. We'd be happy to look at how we might integrate. 

Hi - Jon (the Sailwave developer) here.  I'm sure we could add something to integrate with RSS although the only part that I know of that would be useful is the export of the competitor list.  Although it is in practice fairly simple to do already.  If you have the Sailwave file open and select File - Export to Windows Clipboard you will see this

Select the columns you wish to export and click Export to Windows Clipboard
Now open an empty Excel sheet or Google Sheet and in the top left cell click paste and you now have an Excel sheet containing the information which you can edit and save that can be imported into RSS.  I could automate that as a single option but you lose a lot of flexibility.  It doesn't take more than a couple of minutes and you only do it once per regatta.
If there are other features or you wish to automate this I'm open to discussion
Jon

Jon, those of us who can create spreadsheets with our eyes closed sometimes forget that working with them is a much more deliberate process at best for others. 

Having the available fields in both apps pre-mapped would probably be a welcomed option. 

One could imagine an intermediate X -> Y field-mapping  approval/process pop-up with radio buttons showing the fields as named in each app. 

PS: re spreadsheets with your eyes closed ..

I can remember in the mid/late 80’s, my newlywed bride would call me up and I’d walk her through over the phone … cell by cell .. creating spreadsheets in DOS Lotus 123!  

1 360k floppy for the executable, 1 360k floppy for the data!  LOL

Hi,
I see Jon and Huw are already commenting, but personally I go the other way. Upload from the entry programme to Sailwave using a CSV file. then download to RRS with the same edited CSV file. It takes less than 5 minutes in total.
It seems to be a version of what Jon is saying. Just be aware that the csv Export from Sailwave is not aligned with the input to RRS, as the columns are in a different order. When you have done it once, its easy.
At UKLA we do exactly the same as Peter does at CORK for all the events we run

@Angelo I understand what you are saying and it would be nice for it to be semi automated.

The question is how/who do we improve it? 

If anyone has suggestions and is there any other function other than competitor upload that needs to be considered?

Jon

We're happy to set up an end point for Sailwave which might best be in json or xml format.  It would require that you include an event ID on the Sailwave side to let RRS know where to put the data, but otherwise it would be pretty simple.  Security is obviously the big issue, so we would need to incorporate a token unique for Sailwave if you have a way of securing that token in your code so it doesn't show up on Github.  [edit] And just thinking about it a bit more, we can stage the data on the RRS side to allow you to review any incoming data prior to accepting it...

There are three distinct functions:

Some applications integrate all two or three of these functions, (TopYacht, SailSys), some don't (SailWave).

IMHO, by far the greatest benefits a club can gain is getting a good system for on-line entries and payments, enabling the club to make the entry process 'cashless' an 'paperless'.  If a chosen application does no more than that, and outputs a List of Entries to crossload into another system you've saved yourself a lot of administrative overhead and costs.

The next most 'error-prone' area is on-line publication of results, followed closely by the function of easily posting and displaying NOR, SI, and Notices to Cometitors on an on-line official notice board.  A good system, automatically integrating with a club's website, enabling an electronic only Official Notice Board is very desirable.

To be honest, Race management and scoring systems are a dime a dozen.  For just this function SailWave is probably, by far the best, but see below.

To my knowledge, SailWave, while well designed and developed to support on-line posting, is resolutely NOT 'cloud-based'.  It operates as a single instance on a single device, typically either a laptop on the race committee vessel, or a pc ashore in the race office.  This is good for data integrity, and handy where internet connectivity afloat is unreliable.  It's a little bit inflexible.

In my experience, for club racing and relatively small regattas, the RRS.org system is a bit of overkill.  I'm very happy with SailSys, doing entries, payments, Electronic ONB, Results, all on-line and automatically published, with Protests, Race Committee Applications and Requests and so on handled on paper or by email/SMS/WhatsApp, and outcomes published as Notices to Competitors on the ONB.

Developing Angelos GMail Protest Hearing Application system to enable competitors to go paperless with Protests and Requests, would be a good thing.

Paul. 

If I understand what you suggest correctly you'd have a SOAP API which SW would connect to. It would prove it is SW and tell you which event to update. 

The question would surely be how you stop me then updating someone else's event using their Id either maliciously or accidentally 

John

I guess it depends on the definition of inflexible.

You are absolutely correct it's not cloud based. Nothing stops you storing files in the cloud. You'd struggle to be editing both in the race office and the committee boat at the same time though.

But in my experience it's not just the committee boat that may have dodgy internet. I've worked at clubs with nothing more that 3G mobile connection as WiFi. I've worked at clubs with no WiFi at all.  Add 120 junior competitors and 120 parents to any fairly basic WiFI set up and it becomes painfully slow.

If you have a laptop (any flavour: windows, chrome, Linux, apple) - Sailwave will run on it. No matter how ancient. Only thing it won't run on is a tablet but who wants to be doing results on a tablet!   It will work no matter what. Worst case people can view results on it and it be uploaded later.

Obviously if you are using RRS.org for race documents you are expecting to have WiFi for competitors etc. but a failover plan will presumably always be a piece of paper and a physical notice board.

@Paul
Thank you Paul that would work
I've just completed Sailwave Version 2.32.0 (Not officially released yet) which incorporates sending results to the Irish Sailing Results database
This is a Database that Irish Sailing has set up to hold all the results for Ireland in one central system so that can also produce the necessary statistics etc.
The system is not live as yet but is running.  I scored the ICRA regatta with Sailwave and have uploaded these results to the system which you can see here https://www.irishsailinglive.ie/event/237 click the back arrow in the top left to go back to show all the classes.  I mention this because it could be a cut-down version of this that uploads just the competitor data to RRS.  The data is all JSON-based   ☒ This is a sample of the data that would be uploaded.  It is all uploaded using https and has a secret key which is used to verify it is from Sailwave.  Sailwave has an EventID which is unique for each new file when the file is created - in v2.32. onwards it will also create a new Event ID if the event name is edited (unless you specifically override it)  It is not possible to edit the results online unless you know this event ID as well as having Sailwave to do it.
I've personally scored many regattas that use RRS and apart from the last one in Malta on the 16th Dec 2023 the Jury who have been running the RRS side have always just asked for a CSV file with the competitors and they have uploaded it to RRS. The one a couple of weeks ago they just asked me to upload it to RRS which then discovered that I didn't have sufficient rights to write this information so they had to upgrade my rights - May this be an issue?  will the scorer normally have the rights to upload this?
Something else also to consider if you are fully automating it is what if it is a large regatta using 2 or more Sailwave files where the competitors are split across the files.

@John Allen
Sailwave has always concentrated on results and scoring - rather than Online entry systems and race management there have been several reasons for this but primarily because we offer Sailwave free of charge whereas systems that offer this are all fee-based systems.

Many Classes and organizations have a preferred provider for entry systems and management e.g. 29er and Topper Classes use ourclubadmin.com, IWA use mynewregatta.com which are customized to their requirements.  For club-based events, there are systems such as JotForms (and others similar) that lend themselves to the customization necessary by non-programmers.  These are only a few examples of the many solutions already out there.  I agree there is a cost to all of these.  I would love to supply a Sailwave entry and registration system but then we would have to charge for it.

True the common method of using Sailwave is standalone on a single computer which has some advantages especially when the internet is poor but typically my data files are either on Dropbox or pCloud so are available to multiple people and at multiple locations.  There are additional programs to the main Sailwave program such as SWCList which allows additional people to produce all the lists such as Tally lists, Flight lists, Competitor lists, and Fleet lists for the committee boat in various formats such as the last 4 digits for ILCA and highlighting duplicate numbers and of course prize lists.  All of these can be produced by users other than the scorer while the scorer is still working on entries.  For large regattas then Sailwave may have different scorers for different race courses. I have used Sailwave with 4 racecourses and three scorers where the files are shared on Dropbox.  One last thing is nothing is stopping you from making Sailwave fully web-based by hosting it on a server with remote access.  Remote access can then be from virtually any device be it Mac Windows or Linux or even an iPhone.  There is however a cost to this which is why we don't offer it directly.
Results are these days nearly always published directly to the Web. So I don't think it's fair to say it's inflexible - quite the opposite but it may be what you are used to.

@Callum
Agree with you I've been to so many regattas where when you are setting up all is great but when all the competitors and their families are accessing the wifi it often breaks

Jon

Sounds good.  I expect this an happen pretty quickly.  @jon. I'm following up via email.  

Calum,

Indeed it does, and I meant only the single instance single device facet.

I suspect that within itself, SailWave is the most flexible, and controllably customisable program available.

John E ,

Delighted to have given you the opportunity to do the hard sell on just how flexible SailWave is and can be.

John A, 

I've certainly used that approach Jon E describes. Laptop on committee boat, fixed PC in race office. Google drive sharing the result file. Even a further fixed PC at home. So build Sailwave file at home in comfort. Race office deal with the on the day entry changes (sail no, rig, crew name etc...). 

Laptop on committee boat downloads the finalised entries.

In my experience (I'm small boats) it's hideously nauseating doing results on the CB. But can be done. Guy ashore picks up the updated file and can print results etc.

I now add DSRC (dinghy racing sail control) into the middle. So Sailwave export of competitors to DSRC. Then export back to Sailwave for final scoring.

Thanks everyone, I did not expect the subject to have some much traction, even though critical. I understand and agree, no cloud, integration not always best option, et. In our case, Montréal Lac St Louis, it is a fleet of around 100 boats across 4 clubs that race twice a week, Tuesdays and Thrusday evenings,.from May to October. I explain the contest because part of the requirement challenge. It is not a one time event, it is a continuous event with 5 summer series, 4 different stat/divisions, boats coming in and out, changing division, etc. In short, unlike a one time event, it is hard to keep up with registration/scoring, and handicap sheet by the way. RRS platform is well liked for its simplicity, extended functions, low cost and community support. We then have a server own by SLVYRA, the org that adminter the St Lawrence Valley Sailing, that host web site for front-end and official handicap sheet, then Sailwave, and of course scoring sheet (paper) on RC. This all supported by volunteers that don't always have proper training or skill. All that to say is that the idea or objective is to make all of this more seamless without increasing the complexity or support or cost. So a DB residing on our server that would centralize and map RRS registration, Official Handica PHRF handicaps - score sheet on RC is another component but other subject of discussion with paper vs. electronic, the later not fitting for us due to short courses and too many boat crossing the line, equipment cost, maintenance, exposure.to bad weather, etc. A cost per registration is prohibitive for free season long event, but I got some budget to work on improving. Such a solution could be adopted by the entire Valley, maybe 20 clubs. It seems like the solution is in all your great and very relevant comment. Thank you

Update:-
I've just sent Paul a sample program that uploads the Competitor data from Sailwave to RRS - This uploads the Competitor data in JSON to the RRS server.  If Paul is happy with this then he will have to pass the data uploaded and then I will release a new version of Sailwave with the upload incorporated
Jon

Jon … very cool. Since RRS.org offers event entry management and such … would the connection be bidirectional?  Dump from RRS.org to Sailwave?

Angelo, What I have written at the moment is just one way for sending Competitors to RRS.  Sailwave does have a simple but very effective method of importing competitors from a CSV file

This allows you to map any external field to a Sailwave field and ignore and even combine fields such as Helm First Name and Helm Last Name into Helname etc
However, if there was sufficient demand for an RRS import and RRS could supply the information then Sailwave could import it.

Sailwave does have a full messaging capability which is available to everyone with a good programming knowledge.  The export and upload of the competitors to RRS was written using this facility so could have been written by anyone with a good programming ability and a program capable of using the Windows messaging API such as Python, C, C#, Visual Basic ...

Jon
Sounds really great.

As for the upload from the entry system, many clubs I know use Sailing club Manager including the UKLA. The entry system works well and you can create a variety of tickets (including social) payonline, It has a boat database too. The CSV file works best for that upload because you only upload what you need, leaving the details inside the entry system.

Huw, Jon and Paul great job
PJ

Great, thank you

Great news - We have something working for you all to use and test.
First I recommend you upgrade to Sailwave 2.32.1 or later as it contains the necessary dll's used by the program.
Sailwave 2.32.1 can be downloaded from sw2_32_1.exe (dropbox.com)
Then download the application SWRRS.exe from Swrrs.EXE (dropbox.com) currently version 1.0.1  and copy this to the Sailwave directory usually C:\Program Files (x86)\Sailwave
Now with your Sailwave file open in Sailwave run the SWRRS program and you will see something like this

You need to enter the RRS UUID for the Event this is GUID of 36 characters this is used to prevent unauthorised users changing the data, so its probably easiest to copy and paste it from the RRS web page Event Panel.  Under the Event ID is the UUID with a click to show
Click the upload and within a couple of seconds the competitor data will be uploaded from Sailwave to RRS you can then close the program or leave it open and clicking the upload again will refresh the RRS competitor data to match any changes you have made within Sailwave.

Let us know how you get on.  A future version of Sailwave will include the program as part of the installation and the ability to run it from the Plugin Menu.
Paul is going to update the RRS help on this topic
Jon

Fantastic, i will definitely  send you my feedback. Cheers

I did a quick test and it worked great.  This is going to save us some time.  Would you be able to post the Sailwave field name to RRS.org field name mappings?
Peter

I added a help page that lists the data mappings...  

This looks really good.  This level of point and shoot integration is absolutely where we want to be in the future.

Now I realise it's going to take me quite a lot of trying, but does something stop me brute forcing this?

i.e. can I work out the API address and set a script to repeatedly try every possible 36 character combination?   (I obviously don't have an intention of doing that... But that's the sort of thing bad actors do all the time).

So is there something that additionally secured this that isn't publicly known and further complicates the guessing? (Usually a secret key in the Sailwave code that also has to match and therefor making the guessable string 72 characters?)

Hi Calum,

 

Perhaps you might find this article The Insanity of Generating All Possible GUIDs · Scott Mansfield (sgmansfield.com) interesting

I don't think any sane person would even attempt it.  Especially when you consider the reward for getting it right!!  If there was a prize of £1M you might get someone trying but just to change the Sail number (They would really have to hate the Jury)😀

 

Jon

Good News - Sailwave version 2.33.0 is now available for download from the Sailwave site Download Versions | Sailwave which includes the integration to send the competitors directly from Sailwave to RRS with no need to use export and Excel to restructure and then import
There is now an option on the Plugins menu that sends the competitors to RRS
I look forward to any feedback
Jon