Forum: The Racing Rules of Sailing

Struggling with Q&A 2020-021

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Daniele Romano
Nationality: Italy
Certifications:
  • Regional Race Officer
  • Regional Judge
I'm having trouble with Q&A 2020-021 (Rule J2.1(4) requires the race committee to identify all rounding marks in relation to the definition Sail the Course).
Can someone please explain?
Many tanks.
D
Created: 24-Jan-20 18:45

Comments

Clark Chapin
Certifications:
  • National Judge
  • Club Race Officer
2
Daniele:
As I read Q&A 2020-021, the important point is that the marks were not designated whether they had to be passed or rounded. Absent that instruction, the boat that merely passed Mark T did, in fact "sail the course."
The important takeaway here is that the sailing instructions should include words like "All marks are to be rounded unless otherwise indicated." or "All marks (with the exception of the starting and finishing marks) are to be rounded unless otherwise indicated."
If those words had been in the sailing instructions referenced in the Question, then the answer to Q2 would have been "No."
https://www.sailing.org/tools/documents/QA2020.021-[26748].pdf
Created: 24-Jan-20 19:09
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Daniele Romano
Nationality: Italy
Certifications:
  • Regional Race Officer
  • Regional Judge
0
Thanks a million, Clark, for your quick and enlightening response.
Everything is crystal clear to me now!
(Well... everything... everything about Q&A 2020-021! LOL )
Created: 24-Jan-20 19:20
Philip Hubbell
Certifications:
  • Club Race Officer
  • Judge In Training
0
Just thinking out loud:
Absent preset course diagrams, when the course is to be indicated on a course board on the water, I cannot recall ever reading a SI that the course will be rounding the listed marks IN THE ORDER INDICATED on the course board.
Created: 24-Jan-20 19:42
Philip Hubbell
Certifications:
  • Club Race Officer
  • Judge In Training
0
Created: 24-Jan-20 19:46
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Angelo Guarino
Forum Moderator
Nationality: United States
Certifications:
  • Regional Judge
0
Philip, the course diagram on the left does not meet def: sail the course (a) … as referenced in RRS 28. 

They need to be passed in the correct order 
Created: 24-Jan-20 20:12
Philip Hubbell
Certifications:
  • Club Race Officer
  • Judge In Training
1
1. these are not course diagrams, they are tracks.
2. it does not say to round in order
3. yes, they are PASSED in order, continuously and by acclamation
4. (and most importantly) it is just an illustration of the point.
Created: 24-Jan-20 20:17
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Angelo Guarino
Forum Moderator
Nationality: United States
Certifications:
  • Regional Judge
1
Philip … def: sail the course “(a) passes each mark of the course for the race on the required side and in the correct order,”

The diagram on the left does not show the track of a boat successfully sailing the course of: Start A B C A Finish .. with no marks designated as rounding marks. 
Created: 24-Jan-20 20:24
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Angelo Guarino
Forum Moderator
Nationality: United States
Certifications:
  • Regional Judge
0
US103 is a better example describing what can happen when no rounding marks are designated in the course description. 
Created: 24-Jan-20 21:01
John Allan
Nationality: Australia
Certifications:
  • National Race Officer
  • National Judge
0
Phil's courses as diagrammed.

I agree with Phil.

Angelo,

What evidence is there that the boat in the first diagram did not pass the marks in the correct order?
Created: 24-Jan-20 21:46
John Allan
Nationality: Australia
Certifications:
  • National Race Officer
  • National Judge
0
Clark Chapin
Said Created: Today 19:09
Daniele:
As I read Q&A 2020-021, the important point is that the marks were not designated whether they had to be passed or rounded. Absent that instruction, the boat that merely passed Mark T did, in fact "sail the course."
The important takeaway here is that the sailing instructions should include words like "All marks are to be rounded unless otherwise indicated." or "All marks (with the exception of the starting and finishing marks) are to be rounded unless otherwise indicated."
If those words had been in the sailing instructions referenced in the Question, then the answer to Q2 would have been "No."
https://www.sailing.org/tools/documents/QA2020.021-[26748].pdf

It's not a requirement that rounding marks be 'designated'.  RRS J2.1(4) just requires that rounding marks be 'identified'.

This can be done in a course diagram.

Appendix LG uses the following wording

10.2 {If not clear in the course diagrams, add:} The following marks are rounding marks:
<list> .

We should use the Appendix LG wording wherever possible.
Created: 24-Jan-20 21:50
John Allan
Nationality: Australia
Certifications:
  • National Race Officer
  • National Judge
0
I also have a problem with the scenario in Q&A 2020-021.

It says: 'The race committee communicates orally, under rule 90.2(c), that the course will be: ...'.

Case 32
 
Rule 86, Changes to the Racing Rules
Rule 90.2(c), Race Committee; Sailing Instructions; Scoring: Sailing Instructions

A competitor is entitled to look exclusively to written sailing instructions and to any written amendments for all details relating to sailing the course.

I don't think there was a course or a race at all.
Created: 24-Jan-20 21:58
John Allan
Nationality: Australia
Certifications:
  • National Race Officer
  • National Judge
0
Philip Hubbell
SaidCreated: Today 19:42 
Just thinking out loud:
Absent preset course diagrams, when the course is to be indicated on a course board on the water, I cannot recall ever reading a SI that the course will be rounding the listed marks IN THE ORDER INDICATED on the course board.

I don't have any trouble inferring that the order shown on the course board is the 'correct order' for purposes of Definition - Sail the Course.
Created: 24-Jan-20 22:06
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Angelo Guarino
Forum Moderator
Nationality: United States
Certifications:
  • Regional Judge
0
John “What evidence is there that the boat in the first diagram did not pass the marks in the correct order?”

Ok. Extend a line perpendicular off the port side of the bow and stern on the boat in Phil’s drawing.

 Next,  show me how that boat’s track shows the boat passed the marks in order on the correct side 

Course: Start A B C A Finish

Saying it happens simultaneously goes against what is commonly understood as “pass … in correct order” IMO.   “In order” is commonly understood as one after the other, which is different than simultaneously. 
Created: 24-Jan-21 00:55
John Allan
Nationality: Australia
Certifications:
  • National Race Officer
  • National Judge
0
Ang,

I meant to ask you to present evidence, as the protesting party as to what order the boat passed the marks.

My argument goes:

Leg Start - A:  Marks B and C do not begin, bound or end the leg and a boat may leave them on either side.  At any point on Phil's curve, the boat leaves A to port.
Leg A - B:  Mark C does not begin, bound or end the leg and a boat may leave it on either side. At the next point on Phil's curve, the boat leaves B to port.
Leg B - C:  Mark A does not  begin, bound or end the leg and a boat may leave it on either side.  At the next point on Phil's curve, the boat leaves C to port.
Leg C - Finish:  The boat has left C to port and finishes.

I think maybe we're getting a bit metaphysical here.

What if Marks B and C were out to the 'east' of A?  Are you saying that this would be different?
Created: 24-Jan-21 01:29
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Angelo Guarino
Forum Moderator
Nationality: United States
Certifications:
  • Regional Judge
0
John, I’m saying that this is not what these words in the phrase mean in the ordinary sailing/nautical sense. 

In the Q&A, Mark T is passed in order and on the correct side between the previous and following mark in the course description. 

I agree … Philip’s is a bit too metaphysical to produce useful insights into the rules (which is saying something for me!)
Created: 24-Jan-21 01:44
Philip Hubbell
Certifications:
  • Club Race Officer
  • Judge In Training
0
For John and Ang, and our amusement:
Created: 24-Jan-21 02:24
John Allan
Nationality: Australia
Certifications:
  • National Race Officer
  • National Judge
0
Just to add to the metaphysics, remember it's the string, when drawn taut that has to pass, it's not the boat's course.
Created: 24-Jan-21 02:52
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Angelo Guarino
Forum Moderator
Nationality: United States
Certifications:
  • Regional Judge
1
Yes .. I know.  IMO That string is not passing the marks in order (as those terms are understood and ordinarily used). 

The Q&A and the US appeal provide useful, applicable insights I think. 
Created: 24-Jan-21 03:06
Murray Cummings
0
What if a boat starts at the starboard end and sails directly to A?  In doing so, she has passed C, then B, then A.  It is not possible for her to pass the marks in the order required.
Created: 24-Jan-21 15:54
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Angelo Guarino
Forum Moderator
Nationality: United States
Certifications:
  • Regional Judge
0
Murray, when applying def: sail the course and RRS 28.1 … if you follow the steps as described, you should not have a problem. 

So let’s look at the first leg you propose.  The boat starts at the starboard end and sails directly to A, passing C to starboard and B to port on the way.  She reaches A,  passes A to port and proceeds to B.  

The 2nd sentence of 28.1 states, 

“While doing so, she may leave on either side a mark that does not begin, bound or end the leg she is sailing.”

Marks B and C do not bound the leg from Start to A, so she may leave B and C on either side.  
Created: 24-Jan-22 15:10
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