Forum: The Racing Rules of Sailing
TLE time limit expires
Zsolt Regenyi
Nationality: Hungary
Certifications:
- International Judge
0
Hi!
TLE is to be applied if boats are not finished within the time given for the races! The regatta is for one race a day for 3 days. So each day one race. Those who are not finished within the time limit get 2 points to the legally finished boats number.
My question is is this TLE rule are somewhere in Worldsailing’s regulation?
TLE is to be applied if boats are not finished within the time given for the races! The regatta is for one race a day for 3 days. So each day one race. Those who are not finished within the time limit get 2 points to the legally finished boats number.
My question is is this TLE rule are somewhere in Worldsailing’s regulation?
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The OA/RC can devise any formula they like and write it into the NOR/SI.
A standard form of words using 'Finishing Window' is shown in Appendix LG
16 TIME LIMITS [AND TARGET TIMES]
I concur with Craig on this. For scoring if you have a programme such as Sailwave it does all the work for you. You can set it to almost any value you wish for TLE in the set up.
I believe TLE is used so that competitors don't get discouraged by a DNF score. But, as Warren states, TLE can produce unfair results in a weekend series and should never be used for qualifying rounds.
TLE may be useful in a long series where you want people to keep showing up to race every week. A5.3 is also useful in a long series, but beware, A5.3 places an onus on the Race Committee to count and record the number of boats that come to the starting area for each race.
Remember This still helps because if you never define a time limit, the race committee may now have to abandon a race where some finishers have been recorded, which also gets thorny. (If you don't state a time limit or window, there is no time limit on the race.) You also could simply state "Boats not finishing within the time limit shall be scored DNF" and or "Boats not finished within 30 minutes of the first boat finishing will be scored DNF"
One thing that does come to mind when talking about TLE that I've brought up before is that, at least in the US, when sailors are faced with a dying breeze and a TL that is fast approaching, they will often do the time/distance calc and realize they will "never make it". At that point, they may radio the RC and "retire".
It may be that the SI's provide for a #finisher-based score for DNF/TLE but a #starters-based or #entire-based score for retire/DSQ .. as "retiring" is a penalty a boat can take.
I've thought a boat, faced with the 'never make it' calculus, should be able to call the RC to let them know they will not finish within time and request they be given a DNF/TLE score. I think that language matches the facts better and removes the confusion of using "retire" for this purpose.
PS: the challenge here is def: racing. A boat is still "racing" unless they "retire", so they can't turn on their engine to head home by calling the RC to TLE. So, an SI would also need to include a propulsion-use clause for after such a call.
I wonder if it's actually okay though:
42.1 says: "Except when permitted in rule 42.3 or 45, a boat shall compete by using only the wind and water to increase, ..."
Compete does not have a special definition in RRS, so we use the ordinary meaning, by which I would think a boat is not competing if they've turned on their engine to leave the race course and head home.
Hmm .. maybe .. but I'd rather think we can simply state the intent leveraging 42.3(i) ..
So, maybe an SI that allows boats to call in a TLE/DNF might read ???
16.3
The Finishing Window is the time for boats to finish after the first boat sails the course and finishes.Boats failing to finish within [X minutes] after the first boat sails the course and finishes, and not subsequently retiring, penalized or given redress, will be scored Time Limit Expired (TLE) without a hearing. A boat scored TLE shall be scored points for the finishing place [one][two] more than the points scored by the last boat that finished.within the Finishing Window.This changes RRS 35, A5.1, A5.2 and A10.Often different fleets/racing circles will have different courses and finishing windows (different speed of boats and course lengths).
If you look at SI 16.1 .. it anticipates a "table" of values .. not just a single number.
Sure, if there is only one fleet (an OD regatta for instance), there is less need for a table. (Though using a table makes it easier to find later on the water if you are the boat running out of time).
Here is the current Appendix LG instruction:
16.3 The Finishing Window is the time for boats to finish after the first boat sails the course and finishes. Boats failing to finish within the Finishing Window, and not subsequently retiring, penalized or given redress, will be scored Time Limit Expired (TLE) without a hearing. A boat scored TLE shall be scored points for the finishing place [one][two] more than the points scored by the last boat that finished within the Finishing Window. This changes RRS 35, A5.1, A5.2 and A10.
To me there are three parts:
As long as you have a different scoring code name, Sailwave has no problems with managing two versions of those letter scoring codes, but there is a significant impact on the RC.
A solution could be that the TLE score would be based on the last boat that finished within the finish window and counts it as a rank position (no letter scores) in the race. It's probably not perfect, but scoring systems should not have any problems with this, and it doesn't add any additional work or complexity for the race committee.
This unrepresentativeness of TLE for a consistently poorly performing boat is no greater than the unrepresentativeness of a DNF score for a boat that consistently finishes mid-fleet and only just misses out on the Finishing Window.
This is effect is even more pronounced in handicap racing where a slow, but consistently well sailed boat that usually achieves a good result on handicap, just misses the Finishing Window.
Yes, TLE is a 'soft' option in the perception of slow boats in the fleet.
But as discussed above, it also better represents the performance of usually well sailed boats that just miss the Finishing Window.
Why exactly?
You mean you don't think that the RO is responsible for knowing how many boats are on his or her race course?
See discussion in my previous post. TLE (by providing a #finisher-based score) keeps well sailed boats that just miss the Finishing Window in contention in the series pointscore: it better represents the usual performance of those boats. Particularly for handicap. I suggest that in that light it makes a lot of sense.
Have a look at the doozy here
https://www.hamiltonislandraceweek.com.au/HamiltonIsland.RaceWeek/media/PDF-Files/Race-Week/Sailing-Instructions-2023.pdf
This racing area has numerous tidal gates, courses are designed each day to fit into the tide windows for the day, and when the breeze starts shutting down in the evening it can be pretty clear that some boats are not going to make it.
It may be that the RO has particularly noisy shoelaces and doesn't her the boat's call saying she has retired, and score her TLE.
We had a long discussion about 'suspension of racing' in a thread started by Greg Wilkins.
As far as the definition of racing is concerned, a boat can't 'temporarily suspend racing'.
I think you're right: a boat, while continuing to race might 'temporarily suspend competing', that is to say, her course and conduct are temporarily not consistent with gaining advantage over other competitors and finishing first or in a good place.
I think it's a very fine semantic distinction and I'm not thrilled with the idea, for ordinary club racing.
Consider an Opti regatta with 100 entrants. On day 1 the competitors are seeded into two fleets of 50. The results from day 1 racing will be used to determine who competes in the Gold and Silver fleets for the next 2 days of the event. TLE scoring is included in the Notice of Race and is defined as number of boats that finished plus 1.
The table shows the scoring positions for the first 31 boats in each fleet. The first 21 boats in each fleet enter the Gold fleet. But, from that position on, the next eight Fleet 2 boats with the TLE score of 21 enter the Gold fleet. TLE scoring can give unexpected and undesired results for qualify rounds. The above actually occurred at a large C420 event.
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|A5.3 places an onus on the Race Committee to count and record the number of boats that come to the starting area for each race.
Of course not. I wanted to emphasize that A5.3 requires that the race committee count the number of boats that come to the starting area (may not actually start) for each race. Counting the boats that come to the starting area can be challenging depending on the size of the fleet. The number of boats that start is easier to count as compared to before the start as you might imagine.
Firstly, if I was the CRO for an Opti fleet, and in a dying breeze, I didn't manage to shorten course to get more than 21 out of a fleet of 50 boats finished, I'd be pretty disappointed in myself. OK, I understand that sometimes it can't be helped.
I assume that If you didn't use TLE, you would still use a DNF time limit.
Here's the table, with the right hand column showing the scores Fleet 2 would have achieved with boats after place 21 scored DNF. The left lower green sector shows the boats from Fleet 1 that proceed to Gold Fleet under the DNF scoring system.
How are the 8 Fleet 1 boats shaded green proceeding to Gold Fleet, any more or less fair than the 8 Fleet 2 boats shaded Yellow going through?
Are you seriously suggesting that boats that can't do better than 20th in a qualifying race will miraculously pole vault onto the podium for the series?
In the sample results that you have to hand, can you tell us how many of the Fleet 2 boats that TLE'd finished in the top 10 of the Gold Fleet?
BTW, you said ' TLE scoring can give unexpected and undesired results for qualify rounds'.
What criteria do you suggest for using to determine expected or desired results?
OptiMom satisfaction?