Roger .. just to be clear ...

The RC did see a boat over SL and extensions, but just not in the triangle (so she was over an extension) .. and a boat other than the boat they saw started correctly but returned?

What starting flag was being flown?

I do not see the relavance ot the triangle this is a u or black flag matter.

In the absence of an "i" flag, i do believe the signalling of ocs for being over an extension is not necessary. 

The question as to whether this is an act or ommission is unclear. 

Under 29.1 it is not required, but not prohibited. 

I am confused by ws as they in recent manuals have changed the guidance with no policy statement. Originally it had to be required and missed or not required and done. 

All this is removed from the current judges manual. 

This causes me to think ws want more successful redress claims but they are not saying so, and leaving judges in the dark. 

To answer, yes i do think this was an impropper action. 
Do i think the boat should get redress considered. 

It is generally up to a boat to know if it is over or not. I would therefore be looking at "no fault" very carefully. 

Sad, and bad race management, but it may be nothing by way of redress is appropriate. 

In fact here the conclusion of the old judges manual. 
So no redress as the requirements for rrs 62 not met. 

Mike b

Hi Roger,
The rule only refers to the course side, not the extensions. It says nothing about crossing the line. Note that a boat can cross the line and shortly after being over "the extention". Hard to tell in detail what happens at the pin from the starting vessel. We had the same situation in teamrace, boats A and B were over at the pin not having crossed the line. Boats C and D that started correct returned on X and applied for redress.  Not granted. I wouldn´t say it´s an improper action even if it surely can be confusing for sailors. Tricky: Not mentioning extensions in the rule might exclude X flag for boats obviously not i the vicinity of the line. Flag X is always just a service to sailors so most important is to be as sure as possible on your own start. This should involve a discussion about "your own fault" as well. 
Anders 

The various starting rules are very specific. 29 says ‘on the course side of the starting line’ where  30.1 says ‘the line or its extensions’ and the others all refer to the triangle. There was no boat on the course side of the line. So looks like an error to me. 

The RC should not anticipate that the boat they identified as being over an extension was not going to start between the start marks, given the likelihood of the second sound signal and the X-Ray causing ‘unintended consequences’. 

I agree that a boat is responsible for knowing if it is over the line or not, but if it is very close, and sometimes it is ‘one heartbeat’ close, a prudent RO would not have created this situation. Competitors are entitled to rely on our judgement as much as their own. Redress likely to succeed. 

To answer the queries:
The Preparatory Flag was Flag P, the RC saw the boat on the course side of an extension of the start line past the ODM at the starting signal. I am not sure at the moment if the boat on the course side returned and started correctly as I haven't yet heard the redress claim. 

Personally I would not have signalled an individual recall, but was it improper? 

As others have said, it is a boat's responsibility to start correctly. The boat was not sure so returned. How does that meet the criteria of "no fault of her own?"

Mike  wrote: I am confused by ws as they in recent manuals have changed the guidance with no policy statement. Originally it had to be required and missed or not required and done. 

The earlier interpretation of 'improper' was based on a classic case of 'dictionary cherry picking'... In English 'improper' has 3 meanings: 
- dishonest and against the rule or law
- unsuitable or not correct for a particular use of occasion
- related to sex in a way that is rude or socially unacceptable;

The old manual only applied the first definition.

I would suggest that an improper action by an RC under the third definition would be the subject of a report tho the MNA! However the other two definitions are pertinent to RC actions if the word 'improper' is used in the sense ordinarily understood in nautical and general use. The new manual corrects the previous error.

For instance there is no rule that states that an anchor line of a mark or committee vessel cannot be lying just under the surface for several metres to windward , invisible to boats passing the mark, but not deep enough for their keels or centreboards to clear. However, this is definitely unsuitable or not correct  in that situation.


However I agree with Mike that the lead boat is not entitled to redress.

My personal opinion is that if there is a boat on the course side of an extension that is clearly sailing back to start then the RC could avoid considerable confusion by not displaying X. Is this a rare case of a 'proper omission' in that not displaying X is appropriate to the particular occasion? Should the OCS boat claim redress the 'no fault of her own' condition is not met.

Roger asked: Personally I would not have signalled an individual recall, but was it improper? 

RRS 29 says ‘on the course side of the starting line’. As there was no boat on the course side of the starting line I think it is proven that there is an error by the RC. The only part to be decided is ‘score made worse through no fault of her own’. I look forward to reading the outcome of the redress hearing. 

Seems to me that a boat that starts early at the pin on starboard may not be to weather of the start line when the gun goes. I agree it's unwise for the RC to signal the X flag for a boat that is beyond an extension of the start line and obviously intending to start correctly, but should one stretch unwise to improper? On the other hand case 31 implies that is reasonable for a boat to be unsure whether she is a foot behind the line or a foot over which to me suggests redress might be appropriate if the RC actions are found to be improper. 

Nick,
How do you define 'on the course side of the starting line'? You seem to be saying that a boat that is on the course side of an extension of the starting line is not on the course side of the starting line. If this is the case what is the limit of OCS? A line perpendicular to the start line, the lay lines when sailing away from the start line or some other line?

Gordon

 Jim wrote I agree it's unwise for the RC to signal the X flag for a boat that is beyond an extension of the start line and obviously intending to start correctly, but should one stretch unwise to improper? 
I would argue that this is a rare case of a 'proper' omission.

Gordon
Quoting the rule as written and taking the starting line as defined by the starting marks. A boat that sails around the course from outside the starting marks without having crossed the starting line is NSC. And maybe in breach of Rule 2! 

I think that the first sentence in RRS 30.1 defines that a boat on the course side of the start line would be perpendicular to the start line.  Otherwise why would "or one of its extensions" be part of RRS 30.1

Nick, 
 I believe that no one is contesting that a boat that does not start is NSC. What I do not fully understand is when do you signal that a boat is OCS. 

Do you only signal OCS when a boat has crossed the line before the starting signal? 
Do you signal OCS when for instance a boat is to windward of the start vessel at the starting signal and then passes ahead of CV and dips the line?

We still need clarification in the OP what start flag was raised.  Given the usual distance of the windward mark from the starting line, the difference between the perpendicular zone and the triangle zone would be nearly impossible to distinguish IMO. 

I'd note that the MR rule 29.1 adds "or one of its extensions" .. so there is evidence for intention of its absence. 

Peter,
So a boat that crosses the line at the pin end before the start and at the  starting signal is beyond the perpendicular to the start line is not OCS?

No a boat does not have to have crossed the start line early.

I race management question is when a boat is proceeding towards the start line (usually down wind)  but is in the perpendicular between the marks defining the start line should you signal an ocs.  They may be say two minutes upwind at the start. Generally the answar is no, the boat is required to start correctly, and the signal may be missintrepreted by a correctly starting boat he was ocs. 
To signal  however not an act or ommission as it follows the rule. 

The boat that is outside the perpendicular from the start line, is not subject to 29.1 and no signal is requires. 

She is ocs under appendix a as she did not start, which is separate from. Being on the course side of the starting line. 

One question regarding the X signal; when was the flag removed eg after the boat returned and re started or after the 4 minutes?

This would help clarify if the boat that was deemed OCS and was the cause to display X was properly identified.

In any case, I would say that redress is not given in this case as it is a boats own responsibility to return and restart if she thought she was over the line.

Angelo,
I am not sure that the answer depends on which preparatory signal has been displayed. X flag will never displayed if U or Black flag has been displayed. Under P, I and Z flag, X would be displayed of a boat is OCS at the starting signal.

I admire, but do not share, your confidence that the inclusion of ' or one of its extensions' in MR 29.1 is evidence of intention that its omission in RRS 29.1 is deliberate.

I am intrigued by the assumption that a boat that is outside of the perpendicular to the ends of the start line is not OCS. Where does this come from?

In the example illustrated here,  under P flag, the starting signal is given at position 1. Is Yellow, outside the  perpendicular to the end of the start line at the starting signal,  OCS?

Gordon ... we had a long discussion on this in a previous thread.  There are many interpretations that can be made.  I'll look for the thread.  

It's the first time I've made the Match Race argument though ... so think of it as me taking it out for a stroll.

I'd make the case that the presence of the phrase in Fleet's 30.1 and in MR's 29.1 and its absence in 29.1 is pretty strong evidence that when starting line is used, it's refers to the "line segment"

Old thread ... OCS around the pin end

I do  not dispute that the term starting line refers to the segment between the starting marks. However, we are debating what  'on the course side' of that segment means.

Personally, I suspect that there is not a definitive answer and that race officers use their judgement as to when to display X.

Gordon
In your diagram the yellow boat at position 1 is clearly sailing towards the starting line to start. To avoid confusing other competitors I would not make a second sound signal nor display X for exactly the reasons that have been demonstrated in the example we are discussing. If yellow suddenly turned hard to starboard and sailed up the course without completing his course to behind the starting line and starting I would simply score him NSC.  And: No, he is not on the course side of the line as the line is described in the rule. That much is obvious from your diagram. 

The Definition Sail the Course refers to "her track from the time she begins to approach the starting line from its pre-start side to start", so it seems clear that the starting line does not include any extensions otherwise any boat coming from the upwind course side to the race area to start would be caught. Also the definition Start also includes "any part of her hull crosses the starting line from the pre-start side ..." . Rule 21.1 also envisages a boat "sailing towards the pre-start side of the starting line or one of its extensions after her starting signal to start ... shall keep clear" etc. I would find that unless some other rule specifically refers to extensions, i.e: 30.1, then an extension of a starting line is not part of the starting line, otherwise, at sea, where does the extension end ? To me, it follows that if a boat is on the course side of an extension at her starting signal, then she is not on the course side of the starting line, so rule 29.1 does not apply. If the RC signal under rule 29.1 in that situation, then it is improper, as the RC has no valid reason to make the signal, so in giving an invalid signal, a boat may then be able to satisfy rule 62.1 (a). If the boat that was on course side of the extension fails to sail to the pre-course side of the starting line and start, but instead appears to try to sail the course, then she would be scored NSC, but not OCS.

Gordon .. gotcha. My point is that "or one of its extensions" would not be necessary in 30.1 if simply stating "course side of the starting line" covered the area beyond the perpendicular. 

So, in this scenario the a boat crosses the line a few seconds before the starting signal and accelerates. At the starting signal she is to windward of the line but outside the perpendicular.
OCS or not OCS?
X flag or no X flag?

I agree Angelo. Also, if the harbour from which yachts are sailing to access the race area is upwind of the starting line and the boats are late to the area, they are OCS? Obviously not.

Match Racing is different the boats need to know when they have returned.  If you are over outside an extension your flag goes up and then if you return from over the start line you see your flag removed and need not sail extra distance.  this is a service to the competitors.

Not a judge but reading thru so many comments by judges and umpires with nobody really saying anything definitive based on the rule book, my opinion would be that we look to the other instances in the book where a geometric pattern is used to define what constitutes being over early. That is, a triangle formed by the starting line and the first mark. 

This does a couple things. It erases this confusion, it negates the confusing actions of the RC, and it keeps things standard. That’s how I would approach it in the hearing. And then I’d consider submitting a rules amendment to make it easily understood. 

As for redress, if it states that a boat is ultimately responsible for knowing if she is over early then sadly this ends the discussion. No redress. If this is not clear then I think it should be considered. But then you have to decide; do you assume that boat would win the race? That doesn’t seem reasonable. So then do you look at that boat’s history and assess where they reasonably could expect to finish given a lead at the start? That could be a fur ball as well. Again, not a judge. Just throwing my thoughts out there. 

This all seems a bit unsatisfactory. I am almost persuaded that there are areas to windward of the extensions of the start line that cannot be considered OCS, and yet to say that the boat in Gordon's 15196 is not OCS seems somewhat ludicrous.

I find myself wondering about the practical implications. Gordon's boat, assuming it doesn't return, clearly hasn't started so must either be scored DNS or OCS. I don't think I can imagine that a boat that far over the line would be in a position to say they couldn't know they hadn't started, and be entitled to redress, although I suppose very long lines as per Cowes week... I don't, however, consider that an RC could reliably judge between say position 1.5, with the corner of the boat in the triangle, and position 2, and yet that judgement is crucial to distinguish between OCS and DNS. Which makes me wonder, in what circumstances would that distinction matter?

At the start of a race where P flag has been displayed, Yellow is over the extension of the starting line, Blue is sailing downwind towards the start, and Green is inches behind the line. To score Yellow and Blue OCS you must signal an individual recall; display X-Ray with one sound signal. This usually results in the boat with the perfect start returning and restarting. Instead of signaling an individual recall, I would score Yellow and Blue DNS if they fail to start properly. This is the same thing you would do if the U flag or Black flag had been displayed, rule 29.1 (Individual Recall) does not apply, Yellow and Blue were not in the triangle, so you score them DNS if they fail to start properly.

However, finding that a race committee signaling an individual recall was an improper action would be difficult. In my opinion it is not the best action but is not an improper action or omission.

If I flag had been displayed, it would be an improper action not to signal an individual recall, which gives me one more reason to not like I flag starts!

Let’s imagine that there are no boats OCS and none of the outside the extensions or sailing downwind to the line cases apply.  Starting under P.  X is raised.  Improper action?  Seems to me it would be.  And if ‘Better safe than sorry’ who recognises that they are closest to the line and therefore the RO must mean them returns and starts correctly…which they would not have done without the X-Ray…then seems like redress might be in scope?

Now put boats outside the extension back in….maybe ‘Committee Boat lapper’ who was early sheeted in and went round the end (and is never signalled OCS - so why should ‘Port end spinner’ be different?).

None of those boats are OCS….

So why apply things differently from the no boat situation?

In a thread some time ago we had a discussion about whether the extensions of a starting line were or were not part of the starting line.

This matter was evidently a live issue back in 1992, and the indications are that the line between the starting marks is the starting line, and the extensions are not.

In the 1989-1992 version of the rules, rule 8.1 Individual Recall said

Unless otherwise prescribed in the sailing instructions, when, at her starting signal, any part of a yacht's hull, crew or equipment is on the course side of the starting line or its extensions ... the race committee shall promptly display Code flag "X"

In the 1993-1996 version, this was ameneded to read

 Unless otherwise prescribed in the sailing instructions, when at her starting signal any part of a yacht's hull, crew or equipment is on the course side of the starting line  ... the race committee shall promptly display Code flag "X"

Dave Perry, in Understanding the Yacht Racing Rules through 1996 explained the change as follows

 Rule 7.1 Individual Recall: The rule no longer requires the race committee to display Code flag "X" when a yacht is on the course side of the extensions of starting line. In most cases, a yacht on the course side of the extension at the gun is well aware that they have not started correctly yet, and an "X" flag is unnecessary and potentially misleading to yachts that were otherwise close behind the line at the start.

Nick Hutton's  reference to 'RRS 29 says ‘on the course side of the starting line’ where  RRS 30.1 says ‘the line or its extensions’ adds force to the argument that the line between the starting marks is the starting line, and the extensions are not'

In spite of the strong Dave Perry argument I'm still a bit unhappy about what constitutes course side. In an attempt to go back to plain English, I thought it might be useful to divorce ourselves from the race course.  Here we have a line, and a number of letters. Logically any letter can only be on the Left side of the line, the Right side of the line, or neither.
A and B are clearly on the Right side of the line, one might add directly so. C is clearly on neither side. But F?
Divorcing myself from the race course I think I would have to say that whilst F is not directly on the Right, it is on the right side. I really don't think I could say its on neither side.

For me F is neither…

1. For me: F is to the right of the line and above it (with reference to the page).

If the right side of the line is the pre-start side of the line then F is to the pre-start side of the line and beyond the starboard end of the line.

In the same way, you would understand if I wrote 'C and D are on or near the starboard end extension of the starting line.' 

I am reminded of how we describe  the relative position of boats. For instance if I wrote ' A was clear astern and to windward of  B' most of you would understand what I meant, and would understand that this is different to 'A was overlapped to windward of B', or 'A was clear ahead and to windward of B'. 
 


2 Robin said ' if the harbour from which yachts are sailing to access the race area is upwind of the starting line and the boats are late to the area, they are OCS? Obviously not.'

Which establishes a point - in order to be OCS at the starting signal you must first not be DNC - a boat can only be OCS if they come to the starting area.
Following on: 
- a boat that is OCS at the starting signal can still come back to start. If she does not then she is scored OCS
-  a boat that came to the starting area, was not OCS at the starting signal  and did not cross the starting line from the pre-start sid of the line before the starting line was closed is scored DNS. 

This suggests to me that we should agree on situations in which a boat is to be recorded as OCS, and X displayed. For instance, at the starting signal;

- a boat is on the line with part of the hull on the course side
- a few seconds before the starting signal a boat crosses the starting line from the pre-start side and is now entirely on the course side.
- a boat passed ahead of the start vessel before the starting signal and sails parallel to the starting line a few metres on the course on the course side until the starting signal.
Does anyone have an issue with displaying X in these situations?

Setting aside what the rules actually are for the moment, it seems to me that an OCS boat (and one that receives an X flag) ought to be one that has crossed the start line in an attempt to start, but (presumably due to misjudgement or timing failure) is partly or wholly on the wrong side of the line, including extensions when the start is signalled. A boat that has not crossed the start line because its nowhere near, milling around aimlessly vaguely in the starting box or simply does not intend to, would be DNS. Both DNS and OCS can be rectified by (re)crossing the start line after the signal.

Of course the devil is in the detail here, which is why rule writing is so difficult. Its not hard to imagine all sorts of edge cases.

I remain uncomfortable with the concept of what one could call an OCS box, which is undefined in the rules and exhibits a concept, not to my knowledge found elsewhere in the rules, of a an area bounded by invisible lines perpendicular to the line. Not only is it possible to imagine edge cases where a boat can make a normal attempted start and not be called OCS, but also its going to be next to impossible for an RC to judge whether or not a boat is inside or outside the box at the pin end and thus whether its OCS or DNS.  

Here's an example of an edge condition, with the perpendicular to the line interpretation, which I'm reluctantly thinking is probably how the rule is written now. The outer limit mark is unwisely to leeward of the line, and under a strict interpretation it would seem blue is DNS and Yellow is OCS. 

Folks, the problem here is we are trying to be precise about something that requires us to exercise judgement. Simple take away is look for unintended consequences before we pedantically fire a horn and display a flag. By being technically right and immune from redress we can ruin someone’s day. Sometimes this is going to happen because we don’t have a choice, but it isn’t always necessary to be ‘right’. 

I totally agree with Nick.

Could I add a few new situations to my previous list. At the start signal (classic windward start with CV and pin end mark, P flag displayed):

 - a boat is to windward and to the right of the CV heading towards the line across the bows of the CV
-  a boat is to windward and to the right of the CV heading to pass astern of the CV
- a boat crosses the line from the pre-start side at the pin end 15 seconds before the start and sails for 10 seconds close-hauled. 5 seconds before the start she starts to bear away and at the starting signal is sailing downwind towards the extension of the line, but is still on the course side.

In which of these situations would you display X?

Gordon
I cannot find anything to justify.
Which establishes a point - in order to be OCS at the starting signal you must first not be DNC - a boat can only be OCS if they come to the starting area.

If a boat intends to race and is sailing in or near the racing area it is subject to the rules.
If it complies with the above and does not start it can be scored OCS.
DNS is a very peculiar code that really only has relevance to the special circumstances of RRS A5.3
This has become a very judge problem, and the calling of it is a RC matter.
Clearly if a boat is over the starting line as the start, and between the start marks she is subject to a recall flag on a P start.
Nothing is now said about extensions, so where does this leave us?
If passed the pin or the committee boat, if the rC does not signal what happens? Perhaps redress but if they were clearly over they will not get redress as the cases say so.
Boats further on the extensions are even more subject to this thinking.
What of the boat just past the pin or committee boats and the RC does signal a Recall? This does give a good indication to nearby boats who can see them so should not confuse competitors. I do not think this is an improper act.
similarly if a boat is still coming from the shore and half the way down the course, if the RC does not signal an ocs so an not to confuse the correctly starting boats I do not think this is an improper action. New judge manual.

We should use the tools available to enable orderly starts, in the best interests of signalling to competitors.  If this is done the rules I believe will back the RC, and we have good racing.

I did see a comment earlier on the triangle for the P flag. No no no. When using this flag the RC does not have to have the windward mark in the water at the start and can more accurately place it.

Gordon's questions.
 a boat is to windward and to the right of the CV heading towards the line across the bows of the CV       across the bows so in the area to windward of the line so X
-  a boat is to windward and to the right of the CV heading to pass astern of the CV                                   No X
- a boat crosses the line from the pre-start side at the pin end 15 seconds before the start and sails for 10 seconds close-hauled. 5 seconds before the start she starts to bear away and at the starting signal is sailing downwind towards the extension of the line, but is still on the course side.      If sailing toward extension no X but I do not think it would be impropper to do so, If sailing toward the line X.

Mike,

i see a clear difference between the DNS and OCS, even if the score is the same in most cases. OCS is, in some way, a special case of DNS.

OCS - a boat was on the course side of the line at the starting signal and did not return to the pre-start side of the line and start

DNS- a boat came to the sailing area but did not start for any reason other than being OCS and then failing to start.

 You said
Clearly if a boat is over the starting line as the start, and between the start marks she is subject to a recall flag on a P start.

I do not understand where ' and between the start marks' comes from.

To differentiate from being over an extension, where i do not see it is mandatory for an "X" flag.

A boat crosses the line at the pin end 10 seconds before the start and at the start has left the pin end mark astern . X flag?

Not required but not an impropper action if done. Here as a fallback there would be competitor fault.
If ws wanted to cover extensions the could have said so, and indeed appear to have removed the wording. 

I am surprised that a boat that crosses the line a few seconds before the start would not be signaled as being OCS. Am I alone?

Mike, I agree.  The phrase's continued existence in 30.1 and John A's excellent historical discussion, seems to strongly support the intention behind the phrase's absence in 29.1. 

Knowing how WS hates extra words ... the phrases unintentional survival in 30.1's conditional test would seem an immaculate intervention. :-)

Gordon, aren't we in the region of practical implementation?  A boat that was OCS at the pin and who's stern just past the SL perpendicular is going to get a signal as there is unlikely an RC support boat positioned perfectly perpendicular below the pin to make that call.   From the RC's POV there will be a close area of a BL or so. 

In my old thread, I had actually drawn an effective zone of about 1 BL (unfortunately the images aren't loading). 

Practically, how long before the gun are we talking such that no part of the boat is still in the SL perp area?  Certainly a J105 isn't a windward speed demon, but at full windward speed, we sail at 3 sec's per BL. So ... a full 4 sec's over the SL at the pin to make it outside the SL perp area at a minimum (accounting for physical size of the pin itself).  Now add some perspective fudge-factor on the part of the RC ... maybe another 2-3 sec's ... so a full 5-6 sec's over to be clearly outside?

I find it very surprising that a boat that crosses the line 5-6 seconds before the starting signal is not signaled OCS if they cross near at the pin end but will be if they cross in the middle of the line.

It is surprising, but rules have words, and this is what they say.
When I was a lawyer, people said the law was unfair. I told them what it was, and if they wanted to change it, they should see their Member of Parliament. 
We are not responsible for the rules. We only say how we interpret the wording.

World Sailing race management policy tells you to use flag U (RRS 30.3) for the first attempt of the start of each race with more than 10 boats. If rule 29.2 (General Recall), 30.3 (U Flag Rule) or 30.4 (Black Flag Rule) applies rule 29.1 (Individual Recall) does not.

In a ten or less boat P flag start when a boat should reasonably know that part of her hull crossed the starting line early or is on the course side of the starting line and its extensions at the start, consider scoring the boat DNS instead of signaling an OCS.

CASE 79
When a boat has no reason to know that part of her hull crossed the starting line early and the race committee fails to signal ‘Individual recall’ promptly, yet scores her OCS, this is an error that significantly worsens the boat’s score through no fault of her own, and therefore entitles her to redress.

At a minimum, I would expect that any boat identified by the RC as having crossed the starting in the period just before the start (variable according to the fleet) and has not been identified as having returned to the pre-start side before the start, is OCS and X is displayed. I would also include boats sailing along the line on the course side. With a degree of RC discretion for boats that are clearly returning round the ends, if in RC's judgement this might confuse the fleet.
This applies 29.1 in a common sense way without introducing the  geometrical exercise which seems to have been inspired by RRS C4.1

Thanks Roger. Two minutes is a very long time! Hope the RC learn from this. 

Hi, so the Request for Redress was ruled invalid as it was put in 8 hours after the party had been informed the boat was not OCS. 

However as there seems so much uncertainty about this I am going to put in a Q&A to World Sailing so we can get some clarity.