Forum: The Racing Rules of Sailing
What does it means "to round" in the absence of "necessary to sail the course" in def: Mark-Room
P
Angelo GuarinoCertifications:
- Regional Judge
- Fleet Measurer
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I've been thinking about this since the idea came up in a 2025 Rule Changes thread . Since then, I've been flushing it out. I'd like to share with you what I've got so far and get your thoughts.
Q: What does "to round" mean in 2025-RRS definition for Mark Room (MR)?
A: Mark-Room has the following definition in the 2025 quad
Q: What does "to round" mean in 2025-RRS definition for Mark Room (MR)?
A: Mark-Room has the following definition in the 2025 quad
Mark-Room (2025 RRS)
Room for a boat
(a) to sail to the mark when her proper course is to sail close to it,
(b) to round or pass the mark on the required side, and,
(c) to leave it astern.
"to round" in MR(b) is not a defined term in the RRS, therefore we apply the last sentence of RRS: Terminology and "to round" is to be understood how it is "..used in the sense ordinarily understood in nautical or general use."
How is "to round" used and understood in nautical/sailing? I'd answer that by looking at how we analyze if a boat "rounded" or did not "round" a mark of the course.
Let's assume that there is a protest against Boat B with the claim that she did not round Mark 1, a rounding-mark of the course. How would we determine if she "rounded" Mark 1?
We would have Boat B:
- show us how her boat progressed around the course, from start to finish
- then we would pull the string taught representing her track
- we would look to see if that string touched Mark 1 (a rounding mark) on the proper side in the proper order.
- if it does, we would say Boat B rounded Mark 1. If not, she did not.
In other words, we would ask Boat B to show us how she "sailed the course". Therefore, "to round a mark" in a nautical sense (and specifically in a RRS sense) might be understood though the application of def: sail the course...
To Round a Mark on its required side > "To sail a course such that a string representing the boat's track, drawn taught from the previous mark, touches the mark on its required side"
OK ... so that might be interesting academically, but can this understanding of "to round" be applied in a functional way to understand Mark Room in real scenarios? Let's see.
Before we get further, the question will come up of, "From what point on a boat does 'the string' emanate?"
I would argue that the "string" emanates from the mid-point of a boat's hull. Consider Hugh's recent scenario-image on the Start Boat an Obstruction thread below, where a boat is being pushed by current sideways toward the RC. Or consider a boat backwinding her sails and moving backwards or a skiff spinning to do a turn. Though we often think of the string representing the wake off the stern, on further examination I think it is from the center of the hull.
OK .. I'll assume you buy that a boat's track emanates from the center of the hull. Now let's see if this idea of "to round" works functionally and how it might integrate with the def: Mark-Room (c), "to leave it astern".
Note: def MR(a), (b), (c) are connected by "and". Therefore once MR(b) is satisfied, MR remains until MR(c) is also satisfied.
Scenario 1: Leeward Mark
- Yellow "rounds" mark-2 at #3 (MR(b) satisfied)
- Yellow "leaves astern" mark-2 at #4 (MR(c) satisfied)
- MR for Yellow ends at #4
- Yellow "rounds" mark-1 at #2 (MR(b) satisfied)
- Yellow "leaves astern" mark-1 at #3 (MR(c) satisfied)
- MR for Yellow ends at #3
- Yellow "rounds" mark-3 at #3 (MR(b) satisfied)
- Yellow "leaves astern" mark-3 at #4 (MR(c) satisfied)
- MR for Yellow ends at #4
Comments
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PS: In the OP I wrote ..
I have just shown that is incorrect. MR(c) is not satisfied below, but yet MR turns off once Yellow passes HTW. MR could also turn off because RRS 18 as a whole turns off due to satisfying any of RRS 18.1's criteria. So the above statement is too simplistic and incorrect.
The more correct statement would be ..
That said, there is no application of mark-room here either. For simplicity sake to get the concept across, I didn't actually put in 2-boat scenarios. The application of MR requires another boat.
In theory, PI could take two different courses around/past that mark (assume PO does not luff them up for the sake of argument):
Both choices would seem to satisfy mark-room, but that room looks quite different for the two cases.
(Option 1 may well have PI's bow outside of the normal mark-room for option 2).
I suppose a scenario would be where PI takes option 1, and PO protests PI for 18 (or 11) not "rounding" the mark.
Does mark-room b) end when mark-room c) has been satisfied, and not define the actual course?
Chris
No that's not correct. Mark-room has 3 components ..
MR (a)(b)(c) are connected with an "and". All 3 are asked and if the answer is "no" to any of them, MR has not yet been given.
I've attempted to draw what you described with 2 choices for Yellow. In both, I've included my 'taught-line from the previous mark'.
In the scenario where Yellow goes straight, you can see at #4, her taught-line doesn't touch the mark on the required side and therefore MR(b) is not satisfied. Both boats are still in the zone and neither have passed HTW. RRS 18.2(a)(1) still applied to both boats.
In the scenario where Yellow tacks, though she has neither rounded or passed the mark, after #4, RRS 18.2(a) no longer applied based upon RRS 18.2(b) because Yellow passed HTW. Rule 18 as a whole also does not apply based upon RRS 18.1(a) because they are now on opposite tacks.
Is that what you were describing?
Here are a few examples with 2 boats.
Gybing above the layline at the windward offset with a close trailing boat
From #2-#3.75, ROW Yellow is not limited except by 16.1 and 14 (Case 75)
Example of MR not given .. MR(a) and MR(b) is given but not MR(c)
OK .. here is a simple but interesting one ... (and maybe breaks the idea .. or maybe helps substantiate it)
Assuming the next mark is directly to leeward, has Green given Yellow MR?
I have shown Yellow's taught-string from the previous mark is touching and "wrapping around" Mark-1, so Yellow at #4 has satisfied the requirement of 'sail the course' for this rounding-mark (assuming she doesn't 'unwind' her string).
At #4, has Yellow has been given??
Same scenario, but a huge wind-shift makes Green way overstood.
Any different analysis/conclusion regarding MR than above?
I have not seen that application of the string rule before.
I'm not sure it works as a method for delineating mark-room as I don't think that's how to use the string rule.
So then i think the meaning of 'round' must be found somewhere else. (Something like she rounds when sails the segment which starts where the boat reached the mark and ends where the boat eventually leaves the mark astern on the new leg.) Wasn't this discussed before? I remember we imagined a car on a roundabout.
But I can't put my finger on it right now and I'm busy this week, so will have to look at it later. Perhaps someone else may have the same concern.
Cheers.
Thank you for taking the time to add drawings for my question. I think you captured it correctly.
I posted my variation because we had this exact discussion at a club rules evening last week and it felt like guidance was needed to help with this.
Your "string rule from the last mark" idea would be one way to help determine if MR (b) was satisfied. It helps define the "rounding" aspect, but it doesn't really help define "passing".
"Passing" , when such a mark is a passing mark, might suggest that MR b) is satisfied when MR c) is satisfied. Maybe that's fine.
A single heuristic that helps us know when "passing" or "rounding" starts and ends would be optimal.
The old rule also included "passing" and "rounding" too but it also included "as necessary to sail the course", which offered some guidance (perhaps not very clear guidance) on how to interpret things.
This is a great discussion.
Chris
The entire basis of looking at "to round" this way was considering how we as judges go about determining if a boat rounded a mark or not. We pull the string and see what marks it touched and on what side and order.
So, there is a kernel of common applied process here to what we already do.
Looking at my last 2 drawings, where the 2 boats are simply on starboard and sail past the mark, do you think all 3 elements of MR is given to Yellow by Green?
a) the approach to the mark (room to be given)
b) alongside/in proximity to the mark (room to be given)
c) mark left behind (room ends)
Is it useful to make a distinction between rounding and passing? I think it could be opined that having both words in a single phrase is an indication that no distinction should be made, and what we have is simply a graduation between passing, which arguably means no change of course, and rounding, which does.
Since the revised rule makes no mention of course, that seems to me to suggest that mark room can end before the boat has taken up her desired course on the next leg. Haven't thought through all the implications of that, especially if a boat manages to sail past a mark and leave it behind temporarily before changing course and coming back alongside. Not sure if one can do that without taking up more room than entitled to.
The distinction is very important IMO.
In the RRS, when sailing the course, the taught string must touch all rounding marks on the required side. The string does not have to touch a passing mark. Also the SI's must describe the rounding marks. So "to round" is distinct from "to pass"
As I showed in the example where the boat passes the shoal mark which was designated a rounding mark, a boat does not need to change course in the vicinity of it to "round it", rather her course as a whole has to round it.
Remember, the old rule used "necessary", not "desired" or even "proper". When Dave P's Rule 18 group put out their Test Rule, they suggested 'upgrading' necessary to "proper course", but that was dropped at some point in the process.
There are many terms which get used in the sailboat racing which have different meanings in different contexts. "Side" is one example.
Pass the mark on the port side, is relative to the boat's side. Pass the mark on the channel side, is relative to the mark.
Maybe one thing I've learned of this little thought experiment is the different uses and meaning of "to round".
Clearly, 100%, every day we use the taught-string in "sail the course" to determine if a boat rounded a mark or not. It is fundamental IMO.
By definition, and simple geometry, rounding a mark requires a course change at some point. But as I showed in the shoal drawing, that change in course can be outside the zone or far from the mark itself depending upon wind, currents and course geometry.
This is so basic we need to be able to answer that.
Your drawings nicely illustrate the question I was trying to put in words in my last two sentences. Clearly yellow has passed the mark and left it astern, but equally clearly she has not completely rounded the mark, or in the case of the second, not rounded it at all.
One interpretation might be that if it's a rounding mark then mark room persists until she has rounded it, but if it's a passing mark then only while she is actually passing it. I find myself uncomfortable with that, especially as a boat may not sail the rhumb line to the next mark, so the point at which she has finished rounding is very subjective.
Has "mark room been given" to Yellow by Green at #4 in both/either/none of the 2 scenarios?
If the next mark is to the south, it may be her proper course to sail close to it (gybe set). Yellow is entitled to mark room to do that (if she can turn on a dime).
If the next mark is to the east it is likely that it is her proper course to sail close to the mark.
Once she has sailed close to the mark, she is entitled to mark-room to round the mark (simply put, to go 'around' it). The practical limit of her entitlement to round would be until she is head to wind next , since she can't tack without losing her rights .
While she is rounding the mark, if she leaves the mark astern (not close anymore) at a position where it is not her proper course to sail close to the mark again, she would not be entitled to any more mark-room.
Some marks probably won't require any 'rounding' portion. They may just need to be passed. Hence why the two techniques need to be mentioned.
At any mark, once the mark is left astern with no need to sail close to it, it's over.
Notice how nothing above diffentiates between passing or rounding marks as mentioned in the string rule. Rounding marks sometimes need only passing. Passing marks may need rounding! The string rule is not relevant to mark-room.
All that we see is the two different techniques are provided for.
Has she sailed to the mark - yes.
Has she rounded or passed the mark - yes, she has passed it.
Has she left the mark astern - yes, the mark is astern of her by the usual criteria.
Therefore mark room has been given.
How confident am I that the above is correct? Not very. If I take to the detailed wording with a fine toothed pendants comb there may be some opportunities for a sea lawyer to contradict.
All correct. I agree, mark-room has been given in position 4.
I'm putting it out there that it may need to be given more if Yellow can spin and needs it.
Giving mark-room once doesn't absolve a boat of her continued obligation all the while the conditions are still met. At position 4, none of the things which end mark-room rights or rule 18 have happened. Yellow didn't pass HTW, didn't leave the zone. If it's her proper course to sail close to the mark again, she is still entitled to mark-room again.
My answer to Ang's question is dependant on where is the next mark and that Yellow can spin instantly. (In reality, even with helm hard over, it's unlikely that Yellow could not turn sharply enough to get to a position again to need more mark room if the next mark is south.)
https://d7qh6ksdplczd.cloudfront.net/sailing/wp-content/uploads/2024/08/05123123/018-24-RRC-Submission-New-Case-Definition-Mark-Room.pdf
(I'm not sure of the status for this submission)
But if considered definitive, it indicates that the "round or pass" MR (b), can extend to the point where the boat is on a course that is on the rhumb line to the next mark but no further.
Even though it is taking into account of the new rules/definitions, the "Reason" discussion still refers back to the definition of Room, and what a boat "needs" to do in a "seaman like way".
It is still a little fuzzy, with respect to "Question 2", the subtleties of if boat A were to leave the mark on a starboard gybe, perhaps at a hot angle. It would seem natural that this should be ok, but it would be a different looking mark-room that sailing to the rhumb line to the next mark. I think that would mean that boat A (leaving on a starboard gybe) might lose their mark-room once their bow poked outside the rhumb line course.
Submission 13-23 (for MR),
Interestingly the proposal still include "as necessary ...", but that was left out in the final state of the definition. The proposal also clarifies that if a boat leaves a mark clear astern (MR(C) without completing a rounding (MR(b)), then they could still be within their mark-room.
Reason 3:
"Makes it clear that if a boat leaves the mark astern before she has rounded or passed the
mark as necessary to sail the course, she is still entitled to mark-room. This could happen
when there is strong adverse current, and the boat entitled to mark-room has to sail well
past the mark before gybing to round it. The boat is still entitled to mark-room."
Summary
Chris
True.
I should have been more precise in my response to the question, 'Has mark-room been given in position 4?'
'Mark-room was being given' or 'Mark-room was partially given' or 'Up until point 4, Green was complying with her obligation to give mark-room.' In other words, mark-room is not completely 'given' until the boat is no longer in a position where its her proper course to sail close to the mark.
But I stress that we are now talking now around subtle 'interpretations'. So we now need a 'case' to resolve what 'given' means.
On that point, more worrying for me is the Case Submission 18-24 Answer 2, kindly mentioned by Chris. Is that a thing?
It seems to be an interpretation of the word 'needs' as well as an application of the tactical/seamanlike leeward mark rounding concept we spend ages explaining over and over again.
If that case is used I would have to peddle back on my suggestion that mark-room includes the room to round until left the mark astern.
OK, but I think that would be a shame, as it effectively re-adds 'necessary' in hidden form back into the equation for assessment as a boat rounds the mark. ("Needs" and "necessary" could be interpreted pretty similar in meaning, if wanted.) With Answer 2, we need to know rhumb lines and wind and current conditions, as well as boat polars!! Ugh!
I thought that by removing 'necessary' we were left with the nice clean road roundabout analogy. Once on the roundabout, a car holds rounding rights until it vacates the roundabout, even if it misses her exit. - - No need to know what her exit is. Way more simple.
Oh well. We can only wait and see.
Not so simple.. perhaps that's why not many attempts!
Thanks.
And to be honest, beside some to my mind dubious logic chopping, I see nothing in the text of the rule that supports his contention. It seems to my somewhat in expert mind much better to interpret the new definition of mark room as it's written, that mark room persists until the act of rounding has completed. This means boats are always permitted to gybe as part of the mark room, which interpretation is simpler and more consistent. Of course I may be missing something critical, if so please explain.
I'm informed that Case Submission 18-24 was rejected in April.
For similar reasons as already mentioned here.
Phew!
To me, JMO, I think the idea "works" to the extent that it's an approach that gives a definitive unambiguous answer ... it's just we might not like or feel comfortable with the answer it gives sometimes.
I also think the answer is consistent with how we determine if a boat rounded a mark. If an NSC question came up in a hearing about rounding a mark, we would determine the question by the taught-string in sail the course ... so there is some synergy there.
But like I said, it seems folk are not completely satisfied with the answer it gives, specifically in those 2 "simple" scenarios we ended the thread with, so it's maybe not a complete enough answer.
Maybe the taught-string touch is a necessary component of rounding a mark, but it is not sufficient to help fully describe the room to round.
Anyway ... we all wait with baited-breath for a definitive answer from on-high. :-)
- Ang