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A mark "being astern" vs a boat "leaving" a mark astern
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Angelo Guarino
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While wrestling with myself looking at what it means "to round" in the new rules, it occurred to me that we might also want to have some thought around what it means "to leave" a mark astern.
We are all accustomed to examining whether or not one boat is clear-astern of the other. The clear-astern analysis is always an instantaneous measure, and based upon that instantaneous result, rules turn on/off/change or change in their application.
How do we distinguish between a mark momentarily "being astern" astern of a boat .. and a boat "leaving a mark astern"?
Like the 'taught-string' touching a rounding mark for a boat "to round", I think it's pretty obvious that the mark "being" astern is a necessary, but insufficient, component of "leaving" it astern. OK .. so what are the other necessary components?
One instinct might be to say that, at the moment a mark "is astern" of a boat, she also has to be sailing in a direction such that her distance from the mark is increasing. Hmm .. does that work?
We can easily imagine a boat being slow on the spin take-down and at some point having an orientation, sailing direction and position relative to the mark (and inside the zone) where her stern-perpendicular is past the mark and at that moment she is also increasing her distance from the mark (Yellow @ #4 below).
As a note, the "left astern" in def: MR(c) is connected with MR(a) and MR(b) with an "and" and not an "and then". Not sure that matters, but thought I'd toss it out there.
The other side of your question, I suppose, is "Does the boat in positions 6 and 7 still have mark room, or did mark room end at position 4?" If I understand18.1b correctly then one cannot regain mark room once it has been given. At position 4 yellow has passed the mark, but not rounded it. I'm not sure whether the previous thread reached a consensus on whether this makes a difference.
I think circumstances in which a boat has a mark astern and is not sailing away from it with distance increasing will be few and far between! Strong current or sailing backwards perhaps?
Created: 24-Dec-14 16:36
Tim OConnell
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Ang, You make a good point.it's ambiguous. It would be interesting to poll the sailors on what they consider to be rounding. I for one, would consider that I have rounded a mark once I'm on the next leg of the course and have left the mark astern on a proper course to the next. It's unlikely that a racing sailor would want to round and not sail their proper course. Each of these phases of rounding seem pretty easy to defend/define e.g. using your diagram, the boat that has passed the leeward mark, and left it astern, in #4 hasn't altered course in the direction of the next mark to "round" it, therefore although the mark is astern, they have not started to round it. All they have done at that point, is they have left the door open.. At # 6, they are now at least heading in what looks to be their windward proper course and it's not until approx #6.75 that they have left the mark astern and rounded it on the next leg.
Created: 24-Dec-14 16:49
Paul Murray
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Hopefully, there will be some guidance in the case book. In the meantime Tim O’ s interpretation is pretty close to how I would look at this in a protest. If at position 5, if they set a course to sail close to the mark, they would be entitled to mark room and close the door.
Created: 24-Dec-14 16:57
Philip Hubbell
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There is no need for further guidance. Check the definition of MARK ROOM. The MR boat is not entitled to round the mark. She is entitled to round OR PASS the mark. Your boat at position 4 has passed the mark and left it astern. She has been given MARK ROOM and RRS 18 no longer applies. Other rules, or a different mark room, then govern.
Created: 24-Dec-14 17:09
Jim Champ
Nationality: United Kingdom
1
Rounding and Passing. There seem to be two possible interpretations of the definition, in particular the second clause. The first is that rounding and passing are two sides of the same coin, and doing either is enough to render the clause satisfied, so a boat that only passes a mark she is required to round has still been given mark room. The second is that one rounds rounding marks, and passes passing marks. So if its a rounding mark it must be rounded for the clause to be satisfied and mark room to be given.
Created: 24-Dec-14 17:14
Philip Hubbell
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By not rounding, the boat has made its decision to pass the mark, thus satisfying the definition.
Created: 24-Dec-14 19:15
Tim OConnell
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Clearly a mark to be passed, differs with the complexity of boat-on-boat action in a rounding situation. If the definition of mark room para (b) was slightly reworded, it would leave no doubt about the differences in the interactions at these marks. E.g. "b) to pass a passing mark on the required side, or round a rounding mark on the required side and"...., In this way para C "to leave it astern" has no ambiguities and can be used in limiting mark room in a more applicable context of mark room for passing vs rounding.
Created: 24-Dec-14 19:50
Joseph Owens
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Written into Club Rules (NoR / SI) - definitions of passing and rounding has worked for determining count-backs in cases where no boats finished at all or less than a threshold value within a time limit. Rounding and passing are defined locally in those documents as a compass bearing to the specified mark, or perpendicular to the last mark while rounding, whereupon a boat records the GPS time. We may have to change that, but we'll see. Crew actions or sea conditions are not a part of the contributing factors - 100% of the boat position with respect to the mark and course. We can "what if" any situation to death otherwise. Say the wind died and the current carried the boat back, and so on and so forth... ad infinitum.
Created: 24-Dec-14 20:04
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Greg Wilkins
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Consider a boat, outside yellow, on the same gybe, calling yellow up at positions 2, 3, 4.
There is clearly room for yellow to come up and not hit the mark and to round it. If yellow sailed the cost shown, then she is not sailing in the room she is entitled to by 18 and will have broken 11 as windward boat not keeping clear.
If she did come up at 4 and 5, then do long as she was not pushed high enough to hit the mark, she would be given room to round the mark. Once the mark is astern she would have left it and 18 no longer applies.
In short, a boat that lets a mark go astern of her before rounding there mark is unlikely to be sailing in the room owed to get by 18 anyway, so 18 would not apply
Created: 24-Dec-14 21:20
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John Mooney
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Ang, your question is interesting, but without knowing the position of the boat from whom the boat in your diagram is asking for mark-room (and the direction to the next mark), it's difficult to make judgements about it, since whether or not a boat has left a mark astern is really only relevant if we're trying to determine whether she is owed mark-room, and mark-room always involves two boats.
I would say that at position 4 of your diagram, your boat has left the mark astern, but what's not difficult is what Greg Wilkins has pointed out and several others have alluded to; whether she has rounded or passed the mark or not, she has taken far more than the room to which she may have been entitled, and so whether she has left the mark astern or not is in some senses irrelevant.
Created: 24-Dec-14 21:43
Al Sargent
1
Speaking as a sailor, position 4 is very common a leeward marks and gates. In the Laser/ILCA, coaches advocate to sail downwind until your stern is 3-7 feet (.25 to .5 boat lengths) past the mark, so that you can pass the mark within inches, closehauled, and thus able to hold your lane on the upwind leg. It’s not some kind of rare situation, it’s the common case for skilled sailors.
It’s therefore very frustrating that we are even having this conversation and that our rule writers didn’t *unambiguously* address this common situation. Maybe a case can clarify.
Created: 24-Dec-14 21:45
Jim Champ
Nationality: United Kingdom
1
An interesting point though, is if yellow is being closely followed by red. If yellow's mark room ends at position 4 then what happens if red nips in between yellow and the mark? If Rrs18 is off the menu doesn't red have RRS16 protection?
"By not rounding, the boat has made its decision to pass the mark, thus satisfying the definition. "
This is where I see your conclusion being a problem when establishing the point where the mark room definition (b) turns off R18 as per 18.1b. This diagram illustrates what appears to be a rounding mark. Simply because the transom has passed the mark at 4 doesn't mean a decision has been made to only pass it. If the boat is to sail the course it is obligated to round this mark, and not just lose tactical rights in a rule by an arbitrary turning off of the rule in the wrong context of only passing it. As you mention, It may have satisfied the new wording of the definition of mark room, and turned off mark room, but to me it's premature for a rounding mark. Mark room def (a) already deals with taking more room than needed.
'An interesting point though, is if yellow is being closely followed by red. If yellow's mark room ends at position 4 then what happens if red nips in between yellow and the mark? If Rrs18 is off the menu doesn't red have RRS16 protection? "
If your Red goes into that open door, it becomes the keep clear windward boat under R11. That puts it at quite a risk particularly when considering the new language in R 14 and the word "cause". If yellow at #6 is already on course, and now the ROW boat, as long as it's not changing course then it hasn't triggered 16.1. Neither is 15 triggered because Red's actions gave it ROW.. So , since the whole of 18 has been turned off at #4, it is interesting how 18.2 (c) could apply to Red as the inside boat at the mark.
Created: 24-Dec-14 22:58
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Angelo Guarino
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John M I agree we need to start posting some 2 boat scenarios to get into the meat. I just wanted to start off with something simple to get the ball rolling.
I see some have started imagining a red boat. How about someone posting some scenario drawings up for discussion.
Created: Sun 01:11
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Benjamin Harding
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18.1(b) 'given' = Not until a boat is given room to sail to a position where none of the three elements of mark-room are usable [in a seamanlike manner] further.
That's how I see it.
Created: Sun 01:41
Jim Champ
Nationality: United Kingdom
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This is what I was trying to visualise. Its very underthought at the moment, so feel free to demolish the idea further. As we know, at the moment if red slips in there they owe mark room to yellow, so if anything happens yellow is protected by sailing within her room but if mark room turns off at 4, then aren't the only rules between red and yellow parts A and B? And as yellow is changing course at 5/6 doesn't red get a certain amount of RRS16 protection? I butchered Angelo's drawing so it looks as if red will actually slip through free and clear, but I hope its enough to make the point.
Jim, you presume that mark room was turned off at #4.
To me...
I think at Position #4, Yellow still has to pass the mark. So I don't think 18 is off. (Depends on your interpretation of the word 'given', right?)
Yellow is still entitled to pass the mark and leave it astern from position #4 to 6.5.
Yellow can't try to luff sharply above closehauled to close the door on Red That wouldn't be seamanlike so not protected under definition of 'room'. All Yellow can do is assume a close hauled course.
RED is fine where she is. She is giving Yellow room to pass the mark and leave it astern. Yellow can't touch her.
Created: Sun 09:02
Robin Meads
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The real problem with the new definition Mark-Room (b) is the insertion of the words "on the required side", which begs the question "required side of what ?" If it is the mark, then this is nonsensical, as it means that for a mark to be left to port (in usual usage has meant to be on the port side of the boat) then the SI have to state, in addition to the mark being a rounding mark, that the required side is starboard, which is going to confuse everyone. What (b) should have said is "to round or pass the mark on the required side of the boat, and". I have raised this with the RYA and await their/WS response. Part of the problem generally is, that although sailors are used to the words "to be left to port" etc, even that is not a correct use of English to describe what is meant. The word "leave" usually means "depart", but in common sailing usage, it more accurately means "have", so to leave a mark to port, means to have the mark on your (the boat's) port side. With regard to the issue Angelo posed, it depends on whether or not the SI stated that the mark was to be a rounding mark. If so and assuming (illogically) that the required side of the boat is port, then mark room has to be given until the boat has rounded the mark and (c), left it astern. There would also be an implication that the boat would be sailing its proper course. Therefore, when the boat is on a beat to windward in this example and the mark becomes clear astern (between points 6 & 7), that is when the entitlement to mark room ceases. I agree with Tim O'Connell. It is a mistake to conclude (if the mark is specified to be a rounding mark), that mark room switches off at position 4, but I agree that it would be if the mark was a passing mark. The error is in concluding that whether the mark is for rounding or passing is down to a decision of the boat; it is not. Whether or not a mark is for rounding or passing is decided in the SI (See Appx J, para J2.1 (4)). There is nothing in the mark room provisions that prevents a boat from going too far away from the mark while rounding (if not gybing) (see also RYA Case 21), but another boat can take advantage of the gap at their own risk without Yellow losing its entitlement (See RYA case 63). There is restriction of the definition in WS Case 118 regarding "sailing to the mark". It could be that WS Case 114 could be applied if Yellow sails too far away from the mark while rounding. In looking at when a mark is astern, I think Angelo is making it too complicated. Just use the definition Clear Astern etc. as there is no implication that the words used in the definition are supposed to mean anything different.
Created: Sun 12:30
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Angelo Guarino
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Can we use "influence" just like we do when we determine if a boat "clears" a mark in def: racing?
Case 127 A boat clears the finishing line and marks when no part of her hull, crew or equipment is on the line, and no mark is influencing her choice of course.
This is jumping away from the applied scenarios for a moment and going back to my original question looking for other "necessary components" of "leave astern" (and working along the lines that Ben did in his comment above).
We use Case 127 to help determine when a boat is no longer racing. Are we asking a significantly different question when we are testing if a boat has "cleared a mark"? Yes, a boat can "clear" a mark by backing/ducking away from it in the face of on-coming current .. yes .. but are we not also assessing in Case 127 when the boat has 'put concerns of the mark behind it'? (my rephrasing). Seems to me that aligns with the Oxford def of "to leave" which is "to relinquish, abandon".
If "influence" is beneficial, it is a consistent approach to the mark at the finish and a mark in the middle of the course.
Question: When does a boat "leave" a mark astern"?
Answer: A boat leaves a mark astern when 3 things are satisfied at the same time:
the mark is behind a line abeam from the aftermost point of the boat's hull and equipment in normal position,
she is sailing away from the mark, and
the mark is no longer influencing her choice of course.
OK .. one by one ...
#1 - The mark has to "be astern" for it to be "left astern". (I don't think we'll have much discussion on that one)
#2 - To leave something is to be going away from it.
#3 - "Influencing her course" can carry a lot of luggage.
she has yet to take other components of mark-room (Ben's comment)
current might be an issue and she may need to take an stern-orientation to the mark but has yet to "leave it".
influence is a back-door 'necessary to sail the course'
OK .. is that of any help or benefit? (PS: Maybe only 1 and 3 .. as 2 might be naturally embedded in 3)
Created: Sun 14:34
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Angelo Guarino
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Robin .. I agree that when a mark is astern is unambiguous (as you state .. just like in the defs clear astern). The question is (as stated in the title of the thread) .. is there a difference between when a mark "is" astern of a boat and when a boat "leaves" a mark astern?
It's an simple question. Seems your simple answer is "no"? - Ang
Created: Sun 14:43
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Angelo Guarino
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PS: It's takes quite a lot of work to make def: Clear Astern fit for a boat vs mark, as the def is very specific in defining Clear Astern being between 2 boats (it is not a generalized definition applied to things relative to a boat). It references "the other boat" and it is written in such as way that, for us to apply it to 'a boat' relative to 'the mark', we would need to put 'a/the mark' in place of 'one boat' in the definition and delete a bunch of inapplicable language.
Clear Astern: Mark relative to a Boat:One boat [A mark] is clear astern of another[a boat] when her hull and equipment in normal position are [the mark is completely] behind a line abeam from the aftermost point of the other boat's hull and equipment in normal position.
Created: Sun 15:46
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Angelo Guarino
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Rolling the above in with leveraging the fact that Case 127 already tells us what it means to "clear a mark".
Question: When does a boat "leave a mark astern"?
Answer: A boat leaves a mark astern when the mark is behind a line abeam from the aftermost point of the boat's hull and equipment in normal position, [and she has cleared it].
Through Case 127, what it means to "clear a mark" already incorporates "influences her course" .. so no need to restate it.
Created: Sun 16:26
Robin Meads
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Angelo - I do not think there is a difference. Something is astern of my boat when it is astern of a line drawn immediately behind the stern point of my boat & its equipment in normal position, perpendicular to the centreline of my boat, which is the same as used for enforcing the definition of clear astern. Also, I disagree with your #2. Going away from it is not how the word leave is used in this context. One can be leaving a mark to port all of the time that one is rounding it, even though one has not departed from it yet. The word leave in sailing is an English interpretation of the word, not the dictionary definition of it. It is used in sailing more to define the relative positions of the two objects during a process
Created: Sun 16:30
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Angelo Guarino
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Robin re: " Going away from it is not how the word leave is used in this context. One can be leaving a mark to port all of the time that one is rounding it, even though one has not departed from it yet."
Hmm .. that's an interesting POV. I'll definitely chew on that one for a bit.
My first thoughts is when we use "leave/left" in conjunction with port/starboard .. we are usually using in terms of sail the course .. and in that context .. we are always imagining the taught-string passing/touching the mark on the side required by the SI's .. in the context of the complete course the boat has sailed or is going to sail.
That said .. I'll stew on your POV a bit more.
Created: Sun 16:57
Julian Summers
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It seems to me that Jim Champ and Tim OConnell got it right back in posts 15761 and 15763 respectively.
Passing a passing mark and rounding a rounding mark are quite separate actions. As Angelo has shown, a boat can pass a rounding mark without having rounded it. I think we would all agree that a boat rounds a rounding mark when she continues to sail the course away from it.
The rulemakers have combined the two actions in one clause (b) in the definition Mark-Room, which makes it sound like they are the same thing. Hence the potential confusion.
As Tim O has said, the problem would be solved if the two actions were disconnected in the Mark-Room definition.
Created: Mon 01:38
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Greg Wilkins
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A boat that has left a rounding mark astern without rounding (positions 4 and 5) is not sailing to the mark and is this not sailing in the room owed to her by 18. I don't see the ambiguity.
Created: Mon 01:59
Tim OConnell
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Greg, that situation of sailing further from the mark, Is already covered in that part of the Mark Room definition a). . Para B is not dealing with taking too much room, its focus is on setting the trigger to turn off 18, as per 18.1b. Passing and rounding are different situations. Rounding introduces situations where the privileges of mark room have more significant implications, and deserving of more clarity in when mark room ceases.
Interestingly the definition of Sailing the Course, para (b) 2 does make this distinction between simply passing a mark, versus rounding one. Since a few extra words in the definition of Mark room (e.g.:"b) to pass a passing mark on the required side, or round a rounding mark on the required side and"), isn't in conflict with other tactically related rules and rights which turn on and off 18, the clarification would seem to align the actual sailing rights and actions at marks, with what it means to sail the course. Anyway, it will be interesting on the water !!
Created: Mon 04:44
Jim Champ
Nationality: United Kingdom
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> Since a few extra words in the definition of Mark room (e.g.:"b)
This is exactly why I lean towards the interpretation that mark room turns off when a rounding mark has been passed [see note at end] . It would indeed have taken very few words to make the distinction, so I think it possible the lack of distinction is deliberate. Lack of distinction has the effect of requiring the boat to remain reasonably close to the mark while rounding in order to retain her mark room, which is arguably no bad thing.
The next question is whether there is an existing case that could be used to clarify this point with a little rewording.
[note: I have now completely changed my mind about Mark room. I don't think it 'turns off' in those terms.
Created: Mon 06:52
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Angelo Guarino
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Jim "existing case"? I'm "making the case" (pun intended <gd&r>) that, for consistency in application, we should consider the insights from Case 127.
In other words, I think "clearing" a mark could be seen as a necessary test/component of whether or not a boat has yet to "leave the mark astern".
PS: Bonus points for the geezers out there from the early days of Internet forums who remember what "<gd&r>" means! lol
Created: Mon 13:36
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Niko Kotsatos
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I feel that a mark has been "passed" and "left astern" as soon as it is astern. Rule 18 should stop applying at position 4. A boat who fails to round within their mark-room should not continue to get (extra) mark-room.
Think of the consequences for a boat that sails up to the edge of the offset mark zone, leaves the mark astern, and then swoops back at that buoy hollering "Mark-room". I'm already concerned about the legal swoop you can do in this situation. To all further exaggerations of this maneuver is to re-write how we round the offset mark.
Created: Mon 21:15
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Benjamin Harding
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Any chance of a diagram?
Created: Mon 22:29
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Niko Kotsatos
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Ben, this is the now (always??) legal scenario that I'm slightly worried about:
In the extreme example, red sails way further from the mark before diving back toward it. Follows the red line here, with the mark falling astern early on that curve, and the coming back towards it later:image.png63.5 KB
Created: Mon 23:02
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Greg Wilkins
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Niko, I think you need to separate our red line into two parts: before the gybe and after the gybe.
Before the gybe, red is not sailing in her mark room because she is not sailing towards the mark (part a) of the definition). But does that mean "mark room has been given" as per 18.1(b)? No as she has not sailed to the mark, rounded the mark and left it astern. So it is both true that Red is not sailing in her mark room, but that mark room has not yet been given. Nothing here turns rule 18 off.
After the gybe, red is now sailing towards the mark, so she is again sailing in the mark room she is owed and green must let her do so, including rounding the mark and then leaving it astern. Once all parts of the definition of mark room have been satisfied (sailing to; rounding; leaving astern), then mark room has been given and rule 18 turns off.
Created: Tue 02:44
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Benjamin Harding
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Greg posted his response while I was editing this. I think Greg's response mirrors much of mine.
------------------------
Niko,
Thanks.
Well, your first diagram shouldn't worry you. The new mark-room finally has given us a determination of this scenario. With no 'as necessary' Red has mark-room to gybe. Finally!!!
The second diagram is more extreme as you say. I'll try to give it my take.
Mark room is room to sail close to the mark, round or pass, and leave astern. Her path at position 2 towards 2b is neither of these. She is not protected by mark-room to sail there.
At 2b, all the conditions of 18.2 still apply. Nothing has changed there. She is still entitled to room sail close to the mark if that's her proper course, round or pass and to leave it astern.
At 2b, a gybe set to sail close to the mark may be Red's proper course. > Mark-room.
At 2b, Red sails a curved track which will get her around the mark. 'Rounds'. > Mark-room.
As she sails between 2b and 3, she is sailing a straight line course which will leave the mark astern. 'Pass'. > Mark-room.
(Note: Not all scenarios include both rounding and passing.)
At 3a, she leaves the mark astern. > Mark-room.
This kind of analysis can work from any position in the zone. -------------- I have enjoyed this discussion - its helped me. However, I'm astounded by it.
To me, the new rules are great. They are simple and clear. Well done to the rule makers. But holding that feeling needs me to retrain myself a little.
Here are some general principals which, if applied make it all fall in place like a jigsaw as I see it.
Mark-room has nothing to do with the kind of mark it is. That rounding marks may be passed and passing marks may be rounded. All marks are treated the same and need to be navigated (in a curve or straight line or both) depending not on the string rule, but on the relative position of the boat to the remaining course.
That, 'left astern', 'round', 'pass' and 'required side' all have the simple meanings that a 5 year old kid would give them. They are not reliant on subjective elements or intricate knowledge of boat polars, but are absolute and clear. (e.g. 'No more influence' vs 'behind the transom line'.)
That 'given ' in 18.1(b) relates not to the miniscule specification of the last element of mark-room (causing mass confusion and ambiguity), but instead to the broader act of Giving Mark-Room as laid out in 18.2 (see it's title) so that mark-room might continue to be given any time while 18.2 applies and may be utilised.
I realise that at this point, what I am promoting is a bit of a paradigm shift for some people. It may also be all wrong. Fortunately, the rules are not effective yet, so they are hypothetical discussion for the time being... When a case comes out, we are bound by whatever it says. Until then, I'm happy to test ideas no matter how radical!! :-)
P.S. Ang - Grin, duck & run?
Created: Tue 03:04
Jim Champ
Nationality: United Kingdom
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Firstly trivia... Angelo must be younger than me, in Internet usage at least, for <gdr> long predates forums and was originally and more typically a usenet thing, but I digress...
Benjamin's principles seem eminently reasonable and sensible. I think while writing this I've got something on the business of when mark room turns off. I've gone back to Angelo's sketch from above, and drawn a concept of her mark room as a sort of mauve shadow.
Now clearly yellow is not sailing within her mark room at 3,4 and 5, I think that's uncontroversial, but she still theoretically possesses mark room, even if not sailing within it. There is, after all, no rule that says she has to sail within her mark room, only that if she does not she loses the protections it gives. Between say 6.5 and 7 she is sailing within mark room, and under current rules would have it. So we are back to the point 4. Yellow has certainly left the mark astern, albeit (she hopes) temporarily. So what I'm now thinking is that mark room is a thing separate from the actual course a boat takes. The mark room she is entitled to is my vague shadow, even if she never sails in it, So I'm now thinking that the mark room extends to the point at which she would have left the mark behind, even if she never passes that point. Or have I over thought myself into a nonsense? The shadow fulfils all the requirements of the definition. It is room to sail to the mark, room to round or pass the mark, room to leave it behind, at which point it turns off. Yellow is always entitled to that room, whether she takes it or not. But as soon as she is not with the shadow she loses the protection of 43.1 b and c, and will not be exonerated if she breaks the rules listed in 431.1 b and c.
Is this reasonable?
Created: Tue 12:34
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Niko Kotsatos
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Greg and Ben... isn't the second diagram similar to OP's diagram? That's my only point.
Created: Tue 13:29
Robin Meads
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Case 118 seems to cover it & is unlikely to be changed in a new case book. Although it applies to "room to sail to the mark" it is logical that it should also apply to the rounding itself, so if for some reason she sails too wide in the view of the PC, then she has been given mark room but has chosen to ignore it and therefore is no longer entitled to it.. Red in Niko Kotsatos's second example & Jim Champ's examples appear to definitely fail the Case 118 test. See also Case 25
Created: Tue 13:33
Philip Hubbell
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Tim, there is no rule that requires a boat to tack. Not even at the windward mark. Not even after leaving the mark astern. She is required, as windward boat, to keep clear of the leeward boat that was outside her: right up to head-to-wind. If the leeward boat tacks on her, that boat violates 13.
Created: Tue 16:33
Tim OConnell
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Phil, I don't think i said that.
Created: Tue 17:05
Philip Hubbell
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Tim, you seem to believe that a mark room boat is required to stay within her protected course. That is not so. The other boat is required to provide that room. If mark room boat goes beyond the protected space, other rules apply.
Created: Tue 17:13
Tim OConnell
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Phil, i will try and be polite: you are reading way too much into what i have said. Nowhere have i said there is a requirement to sail within it, nor seemed to believe, or intimated.
Created: Tue 17:48
Philip Hubbell
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Tim, you said: " If the boat is to sail the course it is obligated to round this mark, and not just lose tactical rights..."
Created: Tue 17:56
Tim OConnell
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Phil, you have mis-read that. I didn't say within mark room or close to it... you have over-read it. i literally said, to sail the course, you need to round the mark. Other rules and cases will take care of whether or not a boat has taken too much room. Please move on from me.
Created: Tue 18:06
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Benjamin Harding
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Jim,
I think you have nailed what mark-room is in your diagram, but only for position 1 and 2. I think mark-room is dynamic.
Here's my paradigm shift diagram, suggesting that at position 4, mark-room is still available, but the path to the mark has changed. In position 5, mark-room doesn't even include room to sail to the mark, since it is not Yellow's proper course to go close to the mark. But does still include room to sail the straight line (pass) to the black line point when the mark is clear astern.
Similar to what you say, Yellow is protected if she is sailing within those paths. Not protected outside them.
Robin mentions Case 118 and brings up the idea of 'use it or lose it' which we have become so familiar with.
First, I would say that Case 118 needs some adjustment for the new mark-room definition. Since, Case 118 is built on 2021 mark-room which includes those fateful words 'as necessary to sail the course', the Casebook writers will have to remove references to that. So Case 118 must be modified at least.
That said, I'm not sure that Case 118 addresses our current issue. A boat can still be found to have taken more room to which she was entitled (sailed outside the mauve, green or orange paths). She still doesn't get protection in those cases.
The more interesting discussion is around Robin's concept of 'use it or lose it'. It's that word 18.1(b) 'given' again. e.g. "You didn't use the mark-room I gave you, so we're done. It's over!"
That stems from the questionable (but seemingly widely accepted) interpretation that 'given' is marked by the mark appearing off the stern of the boat at any time.
Replace that interpretation with one which aligns more with 'when R18 no longer applies or mark-room could no longer be used used', and you take away the vague and problematic 'use it or lose it' idea.
As with all these discussions, when we get to the point of 'interpretations' there's not much more we can debate. We need to see what the 'official' interpretation is. I can't wait.
Have a good holiday season everyone.
Created: Wed 10:05
Jim Champ
Nationality: United Kingdom
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Interesting Benjamin. I can see the logic. If I understand you correctly, in the same way as one always has a proper course to the next mark, no matter how peculiar the position is, you're proposing that mark room is also based on one's current position, and one is always entitled to room to approach the mark, no matter where one is in the zone.
It's indisputable, I think, that mark room varies according to the point at which a boat enters the zone. One does not have to enter the zone on the rhumb line. So it doesn't seem unreasonable that if a boat is sailing outside her original mark room she comes back within her revised mark room as soon as she adopts a course sailing directly to the mark.
The flip side is that it becomes much more difficult to establish whether a boat is sailing within her mark room or not, and potentially confusing for an outside boat who finds herself being pushed wide of the mark by a boat sailing outside her mark room. Probably more relevant to match or team race scenarios beyond my ken though.
Created: Wed 12:29
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Angelo Guarino
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Jim re: " Interesting Benjamin. I can see the logic. If I understand you correctly, in the same way as one always has a proper course to the next mark, no matter how peculiar the position is, you're proposing that mark room is also based on one's current position, and one is always entitled to room to approach the mark, no matter where one is in the zone. "
No .. that summary is missing an important point.
I was going to make a suggestion to Ben that, though I was following what he wrote, he wasn't as clear in his description when he used "proper course" and that it might be missed by some.
A boat's MR only includes room "to sail to the mark" ... "when" ... "her proper course is to sail close to it,".
So, it's not "no matter what peculiar position" a boat finds itself in the zone, but rather the question is .. "from that position, is it still her proper course to sail close to the mark?". If she is in a position inside the zone where her PC no longer takes her close to the mark, her MR no longer includes room "to sail to the mark".
Created: Wed 12:56
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Angelo Guarino
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Jim, below is a series of diagrams to also illustrate (I hope) Ben's point. Let's assume the next mark is up top. Yellow sails the same track each time below, but what changes is when and where the other boat "engages" [meets] her. In each drawing, the green crayon approximates Yellow's MR(a) space.
Ben .. is below what you were saying? If you agree with below, I think it shows you do not "use it or loose it."
Below, Orange and Yellow reach the zone close to each other and overlapped with Orange ROW.
At #2, it is Yellow's proper course to sail close to the mark, therefore Orange owes Yellow room to sail from the point Yellow enters the zone to a position close to it (shown in green crayon).
At #2, Orange alters course to provide that room.
At #3, Orange alters course again to avoid Yellow.
At #3, Yellow is sailing outside of the MR she is entitled to and breaks RRS 11 and is not exonerated.
Next, Green and Yellow enter the zone farther apart on converging courses.
At #3, it is Yellow's proper course to sail close to the mark, therefore Green owes Yellow room to sail from #3 to a position close to it (shown in green crayon).
At #3, Green is sailing a course to provide Yellow that room
At #4, Green alters course to avoid Yellow
At #4, Yellow is sailing outside of the MR she is entitled to and breaks RRS 11 and is not exonerated.
Finally, Blue and Yellow enter the zone from the opposite sides, on converging courses.
At #5, it is Yellow's proper course to sail close to the mark, therefore Blue owes Yellow room to sail from #5 to a position close to it (shown in green crayon).
At #5, Blue was on a course that would provide that room to Yellow. Yellow turns from #4-#5 to sail within that room given to her.
At #6, Blue alters course toward Yellow and makes contact with Yellow, no damage or injury
Yellow breaks RRS 11, but is exonerated by 43.1(b) because she was sailing within room she was entitled to
Blue breaks RRS 14, but is exonerated by 43.1(c).
Blue breaks RRS 18.2(a)(1) and possibly RRS 16.1 and is not exonerated.
PS: Yea .. only the really hip-groovy techies got to use Usenet when I was at gov't sites .. I didn't rate unfortunately. I didn't get to "real" message boards until I dialed into CompuServe with my 14k modem (except for the occasional self-hosted BBS). :-)
Created: Wed 13:37
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Angelo Guarino
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Niko, regarding your drawing with the "wild" red-line path ..
But Angelo, in this version Yellow only loses overlap with the mark once. The idea behind the wild one is that it's similar to your OP where she loses overlap and then regains it, opening up the question about "leaving the mark astern". Maybe I'm missing something?
Created: Wed 15:19
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Angelo Guarino
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Niko .. no it was I who missed the point of your "wild hair" (or may I geek-out 2x in one thread and call it your "Crazy Ivan")? Here'ya go.
Also look at my 3rd example above with Yellow v Blue. Somewhere between #4-#4.5, the mark is past Yellow's stern-perpendicular line .. so this scenario also show's the issue.
I need some time to catch up, but Ang's diagrams do seem to present what I'm trying to suggest (to some extent). (Thanks.)
The 'Crazy Ivan' is a good illustration too. The point being that at any time, Yellow can cash out her 'mark-room chips'. Green had better be ready. Best not to sail there Green.
That's the new twist, right?!
As for' use it or lose it', I've never thought that was a thing. I agree. Thankfully, I think the new rules put that fire out.
Created: Wed 16:04
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Niko Kotsatos
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Sorry Ang, I hadn't made my point clearly enough (muddled it with other thoughts).
Ben, I think that's a good summation of the ideas discussed here: Either it's "use it or lose it", OR it's "at any point MR boat can cash out her credit". Have we landed on the the latter for sure, or are we waiting for a case to tell us?
Can someone explain to me why "can still cash out" is preferrable? My counter argument is that "use it or lose it" moves people through the pinch point and onto the racing; I always assumed that was the goal of rule 18.
Created: Wed 17:01
Jim Champ
Nationality: United Kingdom
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RE your three drawings in 15805, Angelo, I'm not clear how it works. In all three sketches mark room turns on when the first boat enters the zone (2025 rules), which is yellow at point 2 in all three sketches. So I presume we all agree that when yellow is at point 2 her entitlement of mark room is room to sail to the mark as per the green shadow in your first sketch, to round the mark, and then leave it astern. So to me, that must mean that yellow is sailing outside her mark room at points 3,4,5 in all three sketches. I suppose I can see that yellow could be entitled to room to sail to the mark/take up proper course from wherever she is, but I don't understand what there is in the definition or rule to say that she is not outside her mark room at those points. It feels to me as if we are saying that whilst "at that moment" of reaching point 2 yellow is to be given mark room, the room she actually needs to be given depends on what her subsequent manoeuvres in the zone are, which makes life very complicated for green/blue.
Created: Wed 22:48
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Angelo Guarino
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Jim, in the first 2 examples, the outside boats give Yellow MR.
Yellow/Orange .. arguably Yellow should already be altering course at #2 because one might say that Orange's course would leave enough room for Yellow .. but certainly by #3 Orange has given Yellow plenty room to sail to the mark and at #3, Yellow sailing outside that room while breaking 11 and is not exonerated.
Yellow/Green, Green's course at #3 would "give" Yellow room to sail to the mark. Yellow needed to start her turn no later than #2. When Yellow sails outside the room Green's course provided, and forces Green to alter course at #4, Yellow breaks 11 and is not exonerated.
Yellow/Blue, Blue's course would "give" Yellow room to sail to the mark. Yellow alters course to sail to the mark and sails within the room Blue has "given". Then Blue alters course while Yellow is sailing to the mark. I might have confused the issue a bit by not more carefully drawing it so that 16.1 wasn't a question (Blue bow forward on Yellow for instance) ... but Blue breaks 18 and is not exonerated and Yellow is exonerated for breaking 11.
PS: MR is "given". So I 1st look at the room that is being given and then ask does that room meet the requirements of MR. If the answer is "yes" and the boat entitled to MR sails outside of that room and breaks certain rules, she is not exonerated based upon her MR (though she may have other avenues for exoneration).
Created: Thu 00:33
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Benjamin Harding
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Niko,
No. We haven't landed on anything for sure yet, especially not official. In your protest hearings at home, I suggest you continue with the status quo until some official guideline.
What we are doing here is 'testing' each other with ideas. Here I am testing a way to apply the new rules which I think would clear up many of the existing problems. Whether the rule makers had the same intention is yet to be seen. In some places, I think they have no option. In others aspects, I can see that their intentions may be different.
However, yours (and other's) queries and challenges are incredibly important to the process.
----------------
Jim,
...but I don't understand what there is in the definition or rule to say that she is not outside her mark room at those points.
That's a fair question. I'll try a different approach to Ang to answer that.
I think our diagrammatic perception of what mark-room is causes problems here.
To explain and discuss concepts we visually depict the rules in action using pretty colours, lines and shadows and talk about corridors, paths and courses, but in static images. This can distort our understanding sometimes.
Mark-room is a shield of protection from penalty (via exoneration) for breaking Part 2 rules (and 31). (It is not a physical shield, but we picture it as one.) Part 2 is 'When boats meet'. Action and thus, protection from action is not needed if there is no boat being met. There is no 'protected pathway' defined when Part 2 rules are not being stressed. So I mark-room only becomes meaningful when a Part 2 rule is being challenged.
In Ang's 3rd diagram (Yellow and Blue), the boats did not meet until position #5. Before that, although Part 2 rules applied and rule 18 was on, mark-room pathway did not exist. Not until the boats met at #5, and the Part 2 rules affected their actions. Before #5, Yellow's course is irrelevant.
(It's why we should probably always include 'the other boat and Part 2 interaction' whenever we discuss mark-room. Without it, we can't really discuss mark-room.)
Well, that's a philosophical way of saying what Ang meant in his sentence...
Yellow sails the same track each time below, but what changes is when and where the other boat "engages" her. In each drawing, the green crayon approximates Yellow's MR(a) space.
At #5, it's as how Ang describes it. Part 2 is in action (11). Mark-room is also in action (18.2). Mark-room Green owes is for Yellow to pass the mark and leave it astern. Green luffs, which didn't give Yellow mark-room. The rest is history.
---------------
Back to Niko's question. 'Use it or lose it' VS 'Cash-out mark-room chips at any time'. Why is the latter more favourable?
1. Mark-room for safety.
Mark-room (and the whole of 18) is there to provide a safe navigation of the 'choke points' in a race. The boat with the upper-hand on arrival (inside or first) is allowed to keep that upper-hand temporarily until the choke-point has been navigated and the extra threat is over.
If the rules end the upper-hand advantage before the choke-point has been completely navigated, the aim of the safety mark rules haven't really served its purpose.
In the past, some said if a boat didn't sail the 'protection path', she was deemed to have 'chosen' not to take mark-room, and therefore waived her right to protection forever. The 'Use or lose'.
There are a couple of problems with that. First of all, the reason why she sailed where she did may not have been her 'choice' or fault. Conditions and current might have been the issue. (e.g. she sails to one side of the mark, then in no wind and some current, drifts back. She should still need mark-room to re-round the mark. No?)
The main problem though, is that often this determination moment (that she had waived her rights) occurs and turns off her protection before the critical actual time of need. Meaning the intended safety buffer was turned off before the rounding.
That's not smart.
2. Unreasonable precision required at determination of critical end point.
Whether a mark is 'astern' or not depends on the heading of the vessel. One degree of heading change can render mark-astern or overlapped. This is problematic. This is just too miniscule a measure to be used as the determination for a critical moment such as when mark-room ends. Look at the reams of posts in this forum alone on the subject!
3. Two birds, one stone. Done.
The two previous issues occur when 18.1(b) 'given' is considered to occur if the boat at any moment lets the mark be astern of her, whether or not she has got past the danger area. This leaves us with an often grey situation where the intended safety net of rule 18 is removed before the actual mark-rounding.
Contrast that with an interpretation where mark-room is not turned off until the end of the navigation of the danger area, and where any precise determination of the end point occurs towards the end of the time of need, rather than mid-way through where the possible error is not as crucial.
The broader interpretation of 'given' clears both the two problems.
Created: Thu 06:24
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Angelo Guarino
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Ben .. that's a nice alternate description and I think you make a lot of great points.
Another way I think of it (which you imply) is the boats' need to be close enough to each other that it's possible (or soon will be possible) for one of them to break a rule of Part 2, 15, 16 or 31 (the rules in 43.1(b)).
Also .. nice call on "When Boats Meet". That put our friend Rob Overton into my head when I read that. He's said more than once on the forum .. (paraphrasing) 'We'd all be better off if people just used the words that the RRS uses'. I should have used "meet" instead of "engage".
"Unnecessary precision" is also a functional concept here. For those in the UILI crowd (Us-it/Loose-It) .. the direct-corridor-only-view would require that a boat always know where the other boat entered the zone .. and as you say create this model in space as if we all had a drone-image ability. That's an unreasonable expectation IMO. As far as RRS 18, what boats can try to focus on and try to determine is "Am I overlapped? Who is inside/outside? and Who got there first?" Doing all that is quite enough while steering a boat, moving sails, etc ..
Your "unnecessary precision" idea maybe brings this thread back to its origins .. What does it means to "leave a mark astern?". Maybe it's a reason in support of applying Case 127's "clear" when thinking about that.
PS: Just had this thought of a boat struggling in light winds against a strong current at a windward mark. She shoots last sec, and gets pushed past the mark moving backwards. Here again, I think leveraging Case 127 might end up being useful. IMO .. Yellow clears the mark (based on Case 127) after 5-1/2 (at 5 she's still concerned about her stern swinging too quickly .. but after 5-1/2 she couldn't hit the mark if she tried).
PS: Robin .. the diagram in my comment above demonstrates what I was saying about "leave a mark to port/starboard". I do not think "leave" is just a simple test in the moment.
In the diagram above, Yellow "leaves the mark to port" (I think we'd all agree with that conclusion). We come to that conclusion by doing the analysis in the context of sail-the-course, by looking at the taught-string of her path going to and from the mark. It is not necessarily what side of the boat the mark was actually on when the mark was alongside the boat.
When we pull the string taught, we imagine the boat "straightening-out", aligning parallel/tangential to the tight-string at all points and then we look at which side of the imagined-boat the mark was on, not necessarily the side of the boat it was actually on.
Created: Thu 15:58
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Niko Kotsatos
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Thanks for the full explanation Ben. I agree completely with your idea that the rules, including 18 are intended for safety, and that it should remain turned on until the choke point is navigated.
My issue is that once a mark is astern of a boat X, then X is sailing away from it, alleviating the choke point and making the situation more safe. To allow -- nay encourage! -- X to return to the choke point with significant rights (mark-room), and to change course within that space without being subject to 15 or 16 is IMO likely to reduce, rather than increase safety.
IMO the purpose of rule 18 is to get boats safely around the mark. Any effort to intentionally slow this process in fleet racing should be discouraged by the rules. I'm willing to live with the wide-and-tight while the mark is still abreast, but to allow a boat to make a tactical rounding once it is so far away that it is indeed astern to me is the opposite of what the goal of the rule is.
Even if a boat is swept (by current) into a position where the mark is accidentally astern of her, the consequences at that point are that the boat must now take a slow, roundabout (slow) route, which is completely acceptable to me assuming a wide and wide route causes less danger.
Created: Thu 21:11
Jim Champ
Nationality: United Kingdom
0
I accept Ben and Angelo's explanations because they are so much more experienced than me, but I still don't altogether see how it gets there from the language. Oh well, my problem.
But there's something else I'd like to throw in as a concept. I wonder if we're getting too consider the end of mark room as an action, not a definition... Its "room to leave the mark behind", its not "Until she leaves the mark behind". What ends mark room, it seems to me, is not the action of the boat getting mark room, but the action of the boat giving room "no longer applies when mark room has been given". I'm not entirely sure of the subtleties of this, but if, say, the boat giving mark room drops well behind or sails wide so that the boat with room has a clear path to leave the mark, does that mean room has been given? Seems to me that's not an unreasonable interpretation, especially if my understanding of what's said above about mark room depending on boat interaction is true. I don't see anything in the rule text about mark room turning off if a boat sails out of her mark room, surely all that happens is that she loses protection while she's out of it.
Created: Yesterday 17:51
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Angelo Guarino
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Jim .. Ben and I are not authorities on this stuff. We just happen to agree on how we look at this question and are sort'of trying out different ways of explaining it (and unfortunately for you and Niko, we are practicing on you! LOL). We certainly could both get popped on the head by a new Case!
Right now the only case that really informs this question is Case 75 and unfortunately it resembles my 1st Orange/Yellow scenario in their positions relative to each other and where they enter the zone ( big diff in Case 75 ... and the focus of the case .. is that the inside boat is on stb). That close, 2-boat zone-entry-geometry results in a "direct corridor to the mark" in both Case 75 and Ben's and my approach ... because of where they meet.
One Case that has divergent entry positions is Case 12, but there the boats do not "meet" until they are both at the mark, so again, both approaches result in the same interpretation.
I like your thoughts about "given". My unauthoratative response would be that one can't conclusively state the components of MR have been given until each component has been successfully completed ... and thus the topic of this thread.
What does it mean "to leave the mark astern"? .. and the topic of my previous one ..
What does it mean "to round" in the absence of 'as necessary'?
The premise for both those questions is that we can't tell if room "has been given" for both of those if we don't know when those actions have been completed.
I think circumstances in which a boat has a mark astern and is not sailing away from it with distance increasing will be few and far between! Strong current or sailing backwards perhaps?
Check the definition of MARK ROOM.
The MR boat is not entitled to round the mark. She is entitled to round OR PASS the mark.
Your boat at position 4 has passed the mark and left it astern.
She has been given MARK ROOM and RRS 18 no longer applies.
Other rules, or a different mark room, then govern.
There seem to be two possible interpretations of the definition, in particular the second clause.
The first is that rounding and passing are two sides of the same coin, and doing either is enough to render the clause satisfied, so a boat that only passes a mark she is required to round has still been given mark room.
The second is that one rounds rounding marks, and passes passing marks. So if its a rounding mark it must be rounded for the clause to be satisfied and mark room to be given.
Rounding and passing are defined locally in those documents as a compass bearing to the specified mark, or perpendicular to the last mark while rounding, whereupon a boat records the GPS time. We may have to change that, but we'll see.
Crew actions or sea conditions are not a part of the contributing factors - 100% of the boat position with respect to the mark and course.
We can "what if" any situation to death otherwise. Say the wind died and the current carried the boat back, and so on and so forth... ad infinitum.
There is clearly room for yellow to come up and not hit the mark and to round it. If yellow sailed the cost shown, then she is not sailing in the room she is entitled to by 18 and will have broken 11 as windward boat not keeping clear.
If she did come up at 4 and 5, then do long as she was not pushed high enough to hit the mark, she would be given room to round the mark. Once the mark is astern she would have left it and 18 no longer applies.
In short, a boat that lets a mark go astern of her before rounding there mark is unlikely to be sailing in the room owed to get by 18 anyway, so 18 would not apply
I would say that at position 4 of your diagram, your boat has left the mark astern, but what's not difficult is what Greg Wilkins has pointed out and several others have alluded to; whether she has rounded or passed the mark or not, she has taken far more than the room to which she may have been entitled, and so whether she has left the mark astern or not is in some senses irrelevant.
It’s therefore very frustrating that we are even having this conversation and that our rule writers didn’t *unambiguously* address this common situation. Maybe a case can clarify.
This is where I see your conclusion being a problem when establishing the point where the mark room definition (b) turns off R18 as per 18.1b. This diagram illustrates what appears to be a rounding mark. Simply because the transom has passed the mark at 4 doesn't mean a decision has been made to only pass it. If the boat is to sail the course it is obligated to round this mark, and not just lose tactical rights in a rule by an arbitrary turning off of the rule in the wrong context of only passing it. As you mention, It may have satisfied the new wording of the definition of mark room, and turned off mark room, but to me it's premature for a rounding mark. Mark room def (a) already deals with taking more room than needed.
If your Red goes into that open door, it becomes the keep clear windward boat under R11. That puts it at quite a risk particularly when considering the new language in R 14 and the word "cause". If yellow at #6 is already on course, and now the ROW boat, as long as it's not changing course then it hasn't triggered 16.1. Neither is 15 triggered because Red's actions gave it ROW.. So , since the whole of 18 has been turned off at #4, it is interesting how 18.2 (c) could apply to Red as the inside boat at the mark.
I see some have started imagining a red boat. How about someone posting some scenario drawings up for discussion.
That's how I see it.
As we know, at the moment if red slips in there they owe mark room to yellow, so if anything happens yellow is protected by sailing within her room but if mark room turns off at 4, then aren't the only rules between red and yellow parts A and B? And as yellow is changing course at 5/6 doesn't red get a certain amount of RRS16 protection? I butchered Angelo's drawing so it looks as if red will actually slip through free and clear, but I hope its enough to make the point.
To me...
I think at Position #4, Yellow still has to pass the mark. So I don't think 18 is off. (Depends on your interpretation of the word 'given', right?)
Yellow is still entitled to pass the mark and leave it astern from position #4 to 6.5.
Yellow can't try to luff sharply above closehauled to close the door on Red That wouldn't be seamanlike so not protected under definition of 'room'. All Yellow can do is assume a close hauled course.
RED is fine where she is. She is giving Yellow room to pass the mark and leave it astern. Yellow can't touch her.
Part of the problem generally is, that although sailors are used to the words "to be left to port" etc, even that is not a correct use of English to describe what is meant. The word "leave" usually means "depart", but in common sailing usage, it more accurately means "have", so to leave a mark to port, means to have the mark on your (the boat's) port side.
With regard to the issue Angelo posed, it depends on whether or not the SI stated that the mark was to be a rounding mark. If so and assuming (illogically) that the required side of the boat is port, then mark room has to be given until the boat has rounded the mark and (c), left it astern. There would also be an implication that the boat would be sailing its proper course. Therefore, when the boat is on a beat to windward in this example and the mark becomes clear astern (between points 6 & 7), that is when the entitlement to mark room ceases. I agree with Tim O'Connell.
It is a mistake to conclude (if the mark is specified to be a rounding mark), that mark room switches off at position 4, but I agree that it would be if the mark was a passing mark. The error is in concluding that whether the mark is for rounding or passing is down to a decision of the boat; it is not. Whether or not a mark is for rounding or passing is decided in the SI (See Appx J, para J2.1 (4)).
There is nothing in the mark room provisions that prevents a boat from going too far away from the mark while rounding (if not gybing) (see also RYA Case 21), but another boat can take advantage of the gap at their own risk without Yellow losing its entitlement (See RYA case 63). There is restriction of the definition in WS Case 118 regarding "sailing to the mark". It could be that WS Case 114 could be applied if Yellow sails too far away from the mark while rounding.
In looking at when a mark is astern, I think Angelo is making it too complicated. Just use the definition Clear Astern etc. as there is no implication that the words used in the definition are supposed to mean anything different.
This is jumping away from the applied scenarios for a moment and going back to my original question looking for other "necessary components" of "leave astern" (and working along the lines that Ben did in his comment above).
We use Case 127 to help determine when a boat is no longer racing. Are we asking a significantly different question when we are testing if a boat has "cleared a mark"? Yes, a boat can "clear" a mark by backing/ducking away from it in the face of on-coming current .. yes .. but are we not also assessing in Case 127 when the boat has 'put concerns of the mark behind it'? (my rephrasing). Seems to me that aligns with the Oxford def of "to leave" which is "to relinquish, abandon".
If "influence" is beneficial, it is a consistent approach to the mark at the finish and a mark in the middle of the course.
OK .. one by one ...
OK .. is that of any help or benefit? (PS: Maybe only 1 and 3 .. as 2 might be naturally embedded in 3)
It's an simple question. Seems your simple answer is "no"? - Ang
Through Case 127, what it means to "clear a mark" already incorporates "influences her course" .. so no need to restate it.
Also, I disagree with your #2. Going away from it is not how the word leave is used in this context. One can be leaving a mark to port all of the time that one is rounding it, even though one has not departed from it yet. The word leave in sailing is an English interpretation of the word, not the dictionary definition of it. It is used in sailing more to define the relative positions of the two objects during a process
Hmm .. that's an interesting POV. I'll definitely chew on that one for a bit.
My first thoughts is when we use "leave/left" in conjunction with port/starboard .. we are usually using in terms of sail the course .. and in that context .. we are always imagining the taught-string passing/touching the mark on the side required by the SI's .. in the context of the complete course the boat has sailed or is going to sail.
That said .. I'll stew on your POV a bit more.
Passing a passing mark and rounding a rounding mark are quite separate actions. As Angelo has shown, a boat can pass a rounding mark without having rounded it. I think we would all agree that a boat rounds a rounding mark when she continues to sail the course away from it.
The rulemakers have combined the two actions in one clause (b) in the definition Mark-Room, which makes it sound like they are the same thing. Hence the potential confusion.
As Tim O has said, the problem would be solved if the two actions were disconnected in the Mark-Room definition.
Interestingly the definition of Sailing the Course, para (b) 2 does make this distinction between simply passing a mark, versus rounding one. Since a few extra words in the definition of Mark room (e.g.:"b) to pass a passing mark on the required side, or round a rounding mark on the required side and"), isn't in conflict with other tactically related rules and rights which turn on and off 18, the clarification would seem to align the actual sailing rights and actions at marks, with what it means to sail the course. Anyway, it will be interesting on the water !!
This is exactly why I lean towards the interpretation that mark room turns off when a rounding mark has been passed [see note at end] . It would indeed have taken very few words to make the distinction, so I think it possible the lack of distinction is deliberate. Lack of distinction has the effect of requiring the boat to remain reasonably close to the mark while rounding in order to retain her mark room, which is arguably no bad thing.
The next question is whether there is an existing case that could be used to clarify this point with a little rewording.
[note: I have now completely changed my mind about Mark room. I don't think it 'turns off' in those terms.
In other words, I think "clearing" a mark could be seen as a necessary test/component of whether or not a boat has yet to "leave the mark astern".
PS: Bonus points for the geezers out there from the early days of Internet forums who remember what "<gd&r>" means! lol
Think of the consequences for a boat that sails up to the edge of the offset mark zone, leaves the mark astern, and then swoops back at that buoy hollering "Mark-room". I'm already concerned about the legal swoop you can do in this situation. To all further exaggerations of this maneuver is to re-write how we round the offset mark.
In the extreme example, red sails way further from the mark before diving back toward it. Follows the red line here, with the mark falling astern early on that curve, and the coming back towards it later:
Before the gybe, red is not sailing in her mark room because she is not sailing towards the mark (part a) of the definition).
But does that mean "mark room has been given" as per 18.1(b)? No as she has not sailed to the mark, rounded the mark and left it astern.
So it is both true that Red is not sailing in her mark room, but that mark room has not yet been given. Nothing here turns rule 18 off.
After the gybe, red is now sailing towards the mark, so she is again sailing in the mark room she is owed and green must let her do so, including rounding the mark and then leaving it astern.
Once all parts of the definition of mark room have been satisfied (sailing to; rounding; leaving astern), then mark room has been given and rule 18 turns off.
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Niko,
Thanks.
Well, your first diagram shouldn't worry you. The new mark-room finally has given us a determination of this scenario. With no 'as necessary' Red has mark-room to gybe. Finally!!!
The second diagram is more extreme as you say. I'll try to give it my take.
This kind of analysis can work from any position in the zone.
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I have enjoyed this discussion - its helped me. However, I'm astounded by it.
To me, the new rules are great. They are simple and clear. Well done to the rule makers. But holding that feeling needs me to retrain myself a little.
Here are some general principals which, if applied make it all fall in place like a jigsaw as I see it.
I realise that at this point, what I am promoting is a bit of a paradigm shift for some people. It may also be all wrong. Fortunately, the rules are not effective yet, so they are hypothetical discussion for the time being... When a case comes out, we are bound by whatever it says. Until then, I'm happy to test ideas no matter how radical!! :-)
P.S. Ang - Grin, duck & run?
Benjamin's principles seem eminently reasonable and sensible. I think while writing this I've got something on the business of when mark room turns off. I've gone back to Angelo's sketch from above, and drawn a concept of her mark room as a sort of mauve shadow.
Now clearly yellow is not sailing within her mark room at 3,4 and 5, I think that's uncontroversial, but she still theoretically possesses mark room, even if not sailing within it. There is, after all, no rule that says she has to sail within her mark room, only that if she does not she loses the protections it gives. Between say 6.5 and 7 she is sailing within mark room, and under current rules would have it. So we are back to the point 4. Yellow has certainly left the mark astern, albeit (she hopes) temporarily. So what I'm now thinking is that mark room is a thing separate from the actual course a boat takes. The mark room she is entitled to is my vague shadow, even if she never sails in it, So I'm now thinking that the mark room extends to the point at which she would have left the mark behind, even if she never passes that point. Or have I over thought myself into a nonsense?
The shadow fulfils all the requirements of the definition. It is room to sail to the mark, room to round or pass the mark, room to leave it behind, at which point it turns off. Yellow is always entitled to that room, whether she takes it or not. But as soon as she is not with the shadow she loses the protection of 43.1 b and c, and will not be exonerated if she breaks the rules listed in 431.1 b and c.
Is this reasonable?
She is required, as windward boat, to keep clear of the leeward boat that was outside her: right up to head-to-wind.
If the leeward boat tacks on her, that boat violates 13.
That is not so. The other boat is required to provide that room.
If mark room boat goes beyond the protected space, other rules apply.
" If the boat is to sail the course it is obligated to round this mark, and not just lose tactical rights..."
I think you have nailed what mark-room is in your diagram, but only for position 1 and 2. I think mark-room is dynamic.
Here's my paradigm shift diagram, suggesting that at position 4, mark-room is still available, but the path to the mark has changed. In position 5, mark-room doesn't even include room to sail to the mark, since it is not Yellow's proper course to go close to the mark. But does still include room to sail the straight line (pass) to the black line point when the mark is clear astern.
Similar to what you say, Yellow is protected if she is sailing within those paths. Not protected outside them.
The second diagram is for Nico's benefit.
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Robin mentions Case 118 and brings up the idea of 'use it or lose it' which we have become so familiar with.
First, I would say that Case 118 needs some adjustment for the new mark-room definition. Since, Case 118 is built on 2021 mark-room which includes those fateful words 'as necessary to sail the course', the Casebook writers will have to remove references to that. So Case 118 must be modified at least.
That said, I'm not sure that Case 118 addresses our current issue. A boat can still be found to have taken more room to which she was entitled (sailed outside the mauve, green or orange paths). She still doesn't get protection in those cases.
The more interesting discussion is around Robin's concept of 'use it or lose it'. It's that word 18.1(b) 'given' again. e.g. "You didn't use the mark-room I gave you, so we're done. It's over!"
That stems from the questionable (but seemingly widely accepted) interpretation that 'given' is marked by the mark appearing off the stern of the boat at any time.
Replace that interpretation with one which aligns more with 'when R18 no longer applies or mark-room could no longer be used used', and you take away the vague and problematic 'use it or lose it' idea.
As with all these discussions, when we get to the point of 'interpretations' there's not much more we can debate. We need to see what the 'official' interpretation is. I can't wait.
Have a good holiday season everyone.
It's indisputable, I think, that mark room varies according to the point at which a boat enters the zone. One does not have to enter the zone on the rhumb line. So it doesn't seem unreasonable that if a boat is sailing outside her original mark room she comes back within her revised mark room as soon as she adopts a course sailing directly to the mark.
The flip side is that it becomes much more difficult to establish whether a boat is sailing within her mark room or not, and potentially confusing for an outside boat who finds herself being pushed wide of the mark by a boat sailing outside her mark room. Probably more relevant to match or team race scenarios beyond my ken though.
No .. that summary is missing an important point.
I was going to make a suggestion to Ben that, though I was following what he wrote, he wasn't as clear in his description when he used "proper course" and that it might be missed by some.
A boat's MR only includes room "to sail to the mark" ... "when" ... "her proper course is to sail close to it,".
So, it's not "no matter what peculiar position" a boat finds itself in the zone, but rather the question is .. "from that position, is it still her proper course to sail close to the mark?". If she is in a position inside the zone where her PC no longer takes her close to the mark, her MR no longer includes room "to sail to the mark".
"engages"[meets] her. In each drawing, the green crayon approximates Yellow's MR(a) space.Ben .. is below what you were saying? If you agree with below, I think it shows you do not "use it or loose it."
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Below, Orange and Yellow reach the zone close to each other and overlapped with Orange ROW.
Next, Green and Yellow enter the zone farther apart on converging courses.
Finally, Blue and Yellow enter the zone from the opposite sides, on converging courses.
PS: Yea .. only the really hip-groovy techies got to use Usenet when I was at gov't sites .. I didn't rate unfortunately. I didn't get to "real" message boards until I dialed into CompuServe with my 14k modem (except for the occasional self-hosted BBS). :-)
Maybe a more realistic scenario is the one I posted to the "to round" thread. In that comment I proposed the following analysis under the 2025 quad ..
From #2-#3.75, ROW Yellow is not limited except by 16.1 and 14 (Case 75)
Maybe I'm missing something?
Also look at my 3rd example above with Yellow v Blue. Somewhere between #4-#4.5, the mark is past Yellow's stern-perpendicular line .. so this scenario also show's the issue.
The 'Crazy Ivan' is a good illustration too. The point being that at any time, Yellow can cash out her 'mark-room chips'. Green had better be ready. Best not to sail there Green.
That's the new twist, right?!
As for' use it or lose it', I've never thought that was a thing. I agree. Thankfully, I think the new rules put that fire out.
Ben, I think that's a good summation of the ideas discussed here:
Either it's "use it or lose it", OR it's "at any point MR boat can cash out her credit". Have we landed on the the latter for sure, or are we waiting for a case to tell us?
Can someone explain to me why "can still cash out" is preferrable? My counter argument is that "use it or lose it" moves people through the pinch point and onto the racing; I always assumed that was the goal of rule 18.
Yellow/Orange .. arguably Yellow should already be altering course at #2 because one might say that Orange's course would leave enough room for Yellow .. but certainly by #3 Orange has given Yellow plenty room to sail to the mark and at #3, Yellow sailing outside that room while breaking 11 and is not exonerated.
Yellow/Green, Green's course at #3 would "give" Yellow room to sail to the mark. Yellow needed to start her turn no later than #2. When Yellow sails outside the room Green's course provided, and forces Green to alter course at #4, Yellow breaks 11 and is not exonerated.
Yellow/Blue, Blue's course would "give" Yellow room to sail to the mark. Yellow alters course to sail to the mark and sails within the room Blue has "given". Then Blue alters course while Yellow is sailing to the mark. I might have confused the issue a bit by not more carefully drawing it so that 16.1 wasn't a question (Blue bow forward on Yellow for instance) ... but Blue breaks 18 and is not exonerated and Yellow is exonerated for breaking 11.
PS: MR is "given". So I 1st look at the room that is being given and then ask does that room meet the requirements of MR. If the answer is "yes" and the boat entitled to MR sails outside of that room and breaks certain rules, she is not exonerated based upon her MR (though she may have other avenues for exoneration).
No. We haven't landed on anything for sure yet, especially not official. In your protest hearings at home, I suggest you continue with the status quo until some official guideline.
What we are doing here is 'testing' each other with ideas. Here I am testing a way to apply the new rules which I think would clear up many of the existing problems. Whether the rule makers had the same intention is yet to be seen. In some places, I think they have no option. In others aspects, I can see that their intentions may be different.
However, yours (and other's) queries and challenges are incredibly important to the process.
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Jim,
That's a fair question. I'll try a different approach to Ang to answer that.
I think our diagrammatic perception of what mark-room is causes problems here.
To explain and discuss concepts we visually depict the rules in action using pretty colours, lines and shadows and talk about corridors, paths and courses, but in static images. This can distort our understanding sometimes.
Mark-room is a shield of protection from penalty (via exoneration) for breaking Part 2 rules (and 31). (It is not a physical shield, but we picture it as one.) Part 2 is 'When boats meet'. Action and thus, protection from action is not needed if there is no boat being met. There is no 'protected pathway' defined when Part 2 rules are not being stressed. So I mark-room only becomes meaningful when a Part 2 rule is being challenged.
In Ang's 3rd diagram (Yellow and Blue), the boats did not meet until position #5. Before that, although Part 2 rules applied and rule 18 was on, mark-room pathway did not exist. Not until the boats met at #5, and the Part 2 rules affected their actions. Before #5, Yellow's course is irrelevant.
(It's why we should probably always include 'the other boat and Part 2 interaction' whenever we discuss mark-room. Without it, we can't really discuss mark-room.)
Well, that's a philosophical way of saying what Ang meant in his sentence...
At #5, it's as how Ang describes it. Part 2 is in action (11). Mark-room is also in action (18.2). Mark-room Green owes is for Yellow to pass the mark and leave it astern. Green luffs, which didn't give Yellow mark-room. The rest is history.
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Back to Niko's question. 'Use it or lose it' VS 'Cash-out mark-room chips at any time'. Why is the latter more favourable?
1. Mark-room for safety.
Mark-room (and the whole of 18) is there to provide a safe navigation of the 'choke points' in a race. The boat with the upper-hand on arrival (inside or first) is allowed to keep that upper-hand temporarily until the choke-point has been navigated and the extra threat is over.
If the rules end the upper-hand advantage before the choke-point has been completely navigated, the aim of the safety mark rules haven't really served its purpose.
In the past, some said if a boat didn't sail the 'protection path', she was deemed to have 'chosen' not to take mark-room, and therefore waived her right to protection forever. The 'Use or lose'.
There are a couple of problems with that. First of all, the reason why she sailed where she did may not have been her 'choice' or fault. Conditions and current might have been the issue. (e.g. she sails to one side of the mark, then in no wind and some current, drifts back. She should still need mark-room to re-round the mark. No?)
The main problem though, is that often this determination moment (that she had waived her rights) occurs and turns off her protection before the critical actual time of need. Meaning the intended safety buffer was turned off before the rounding.
That's not smart.
2. Unreasonable precision required at determination of critical end point.
Whether a mark is 'astern' or not depends on the heading of the vessel. One degree of heading change can render mark-astern or overlapped. This is problematic. This is just too miniscule a measure to be used as the determination for a critical moment such as when mark-room ends. Look at the reams of posts in this forum alone on the subject!
3. Two birds, one stone. Done.
The two previous issues occur when 18.1(b) 'given' is considered to occur if the boat at any moment lets the mark be astern of her, whether or not she has got past the danger area. This leaves us with an often grey situation where the intended safety net of rule 18 is removed before the actual mark-rounding.
Contrast that with an interpretation where mark-room is not turned off until the end of the navigation of the danger area, and where any precise determination of the end point occurs towards the end of the time of need, rather than mid-way through where the possible error is not as crucial.
The broader interpretation of 'given' clears both the two problems.
Another way I think of it (which you imply) is the boats' need to be close enough to each other that it's possible (or soon will be possible) for one of them to break a rule of Part 2, 15, 16 or 31 (the rules in 43.1(b)).
Also .. nice call on "When Boats Meet". That put our friend Rob Overton into my head when I read that. He's said more than once on the forum .. (paraphrasing) 'We'd all be better off if people just used the words that the RRS uses'. I should have used "meet" instead of "engage".
"Unnecessary precision" is also a functional concept here. For those in the UILI crowd (Us-it/Loose-It) .. the direct-corridor-only-view would require that a boat always know where the other boat entered the zone .. and as you say create this model in space as if we all had a drone-image ability. That's an unreasonable expectation IMO. As far as RRS 18, what boats can try to focus on and try to determine is "Am I overlapped? Who is inside/outside? and Who got there first?" Doing all that is quite enough while steering a boat, moving sails, etc ..
Your "unnecessary precision" idea maybe brings this thread back to its origins .. What does it means to "leave a mark astern?". Maybe it's a reason in support of applying Case 127's "clear" when thinking about that.
PS: Just had this thought of a boat struggling in light winds against a strong current at a windward mark. She shoots last sec, and gets pushed past the mark moving backwards. Here again, I think leveraging Case 127 might end up being useful. IMO .. Yellow clears the mark (based on Case 127) after 5-1/2 (at 5 she's still concerned about her stern swinging too quickly .. but after 5-1/2 she couldn't hit the mark if she tried).
In the diagram above, Yellow "leaves the mark to port" (I think we'd all agree with that conclusion). We come to that conclusion by doing the analysis in the context of sail-the-course, by looking at the taught-string of her path going to and from the mark. It is not necessarily what side of the boat the mark was actually on when the mark was alongside the boat.
When we pull the string taught, we imagine the boat "straightening-out", aligning parallel/tangential to the tight-string at all points and then we look at which side of the imagined-boat the mark was on, not necessarily the side of the boat it was actually on.
My issue is that once a mark is astern of a boat X, then X is sailing away from it, alleviating the choke point and making the situation more safe. To allow -- nay encourage! -- X to return to the choke point with significant rights (mark-room), and to change course within that space without being subject to 15 or 16 is IMO likely to reduce, rather than increase safety.
IMO the purpose of rule 18 is to get boats safely around the mark. Any effort to intentionally slow this process in fleet racing should be discouraged by the rules. I'm willing to live with the wide-and-tight while the mark is still abreast, but to allow a boat to make a tactical rounding once it is so far away that it is indeed astern to me is the opposite of what the goal of the rule is.
Even if a boat is swept (by current) into a position where the mark is accidentally astern of her, the consequences at that point are that the boat must now take a slow, roundabout (slow) route, which is completely acceptable to me assuming a wide and wide route causes less danger.
But there's something else I'd like to throw in as a concept. I wonder if we're getting too consider the end of mark room as an action, not a definition... Its "room to leave the mark behind", its not "Until she leaves the mark behind". What ends mark room, it seems to me, is not the action of the boat getting mark room, but the action of the boat giving room "no longer applies when mark room has been given". I'm not entirely sure of the subtleties of this, but if, say, the boat giving mark room drops well behind or sails wide so that the boat with room has a clear path to leave the mark, does that mean room has been given? Seems to me that's not an unreasonable interpretation, especially if my understanding of what's said above about mark room depending on boat interaction is true. I don't see anything in the rule text about mark room turning off if a boat sails out of her mark room, surely all that happens is that she loses protection while she's out of it.
Right now the only case that really informs this question is Case 75 and unfortunately it resembles my 1st Orange/Yellow scenario in their positions relative to each other and where they enter the zone ( big diff in Case 75 ... and the focus of the case .. is that the inside boat is on stb). That close, 2-boat zone-entry-geometry results in a "direct corridor to the mark" in both Case 75 and Ben's and my approach ... because of where they meet.
One Case that has divergent entry positions is Case 12, but there the boats do not "meet" until they are both at the mark, so again, both approaches result in the same interpretation.
I like your thoughts about "given". My unauthoratative response would be that one can't conclusively state the components of MR have been given until each component has been successfully completed ... and thus the topic of this thread.
The premise for both those questions is that we can't tell if room "has been given" for both of those if we don't know when those actions have been completed.