Forum: The Racing Rules of Sailing

Scoring TLE

Thomas OConor
The SIs guide says this:
"A boat scored TLE shall be scored points for the finishing place [one][two] more than the points scored by the last boat that finished within the Finishing Window."
That's simple enough. My question is whether OCS boats who meet the requirements in the definition of "finish" and finished within the Finishing Window should be counted when allocating points for boats that are TLE. 
It seems to be common sense that you have to start in order to finish, but nowhere in the definition of "finish" does it state that you have to start properly.
Thanks for considering.
Tom O'Conor
Created: 25-Feb-20 12:43

Comments

John Allan
Nationality: Australia
Certifications:
  • National Race Officer
  • National Judge
1
Appendix LG is still in 2021 version.

'finish'' should probably be replaced with 'sailed the course and finished'. 
Created: 25-Feb-20 13:23
Nick Hutton
Certifications:
  • International Race Officer
1
Would be interested to know who uses TLE instead of DNF. It’s not a scoring abbreviation available in App A. So while it exists in the SI Guide, is it cited anywhere else?
Created: 25-Feb-20 13:59
David Nieman
0
A boat that is OCS has not met the definition of Start.
Created: 25-Feb-20 14:18
P
Peter van Muyden
Nationality: Canada
Certifications:
  • International Race Officer
0
John, it still creates an undesirable situation if the last boat that finished within the Finishing Window 'sailed the course and finished', but was DSQ-ed.  Q&A 6 months ago I created a regarding this, but at the time they wouldn't answer due to this situation.  TLE is not part of the rules and it is better not to use it.  I would not be surprised if TLE is removed from the updated SI template.
Created: 25-Feb-20 14:23
Craig Priniski
Certifications:
  • Club Race Officer
-1
You wouldn't be scored finished or TLE if you were OCS.  You can only finish after starting...  Now if you failed to sail the course possibly that RC might not be able to apply that penalty and say you didn't "finish" as well (NSC) 
Created: 25-Feb-20 14:25
Craig Priniski
Certifications:
  • Club Race Officer
0
There's at least one long thread on the subject of how thorny a TLE can be when scoring a series, especially if it's a large fraction of the fleet.  The 1 or 2 boats more than finishers it might give everyone who sailed a 5th place, and anyone who missed the start a 40th place! 
Created: 25-Feb-20 14:30
P
Angelo Guarino
Forum Moderator
Nationality: United States
Certifications:
  • Regional Judge
1
Craig, in series over a span of weeks, the DNC is often based in the # of starters for that race.   That takes care of that problem. 

  • 20 boats entered. 
  • 10 show up and start
  • 5 finish

The TLE's get 6. The DNC's get 11. 
Created: 25-Feb-20 15:08
Jerry Thompson
Nationality: United States
Certifications:
  • National Judge
  • Umpire In Training
  • Regional Race Officer
0
"Craig, in series over a span of weeks, the DNC is often based in the # of starters for that race.   That takes care of that problem. 

  • 20 boats entered. 
  • 10 show up and start
  • 5 finish

The TLE's get 6. The DNC's get 11. "

Add, only if A5.3 is invoked by the NOR or Sis.
Created: 25-Feb-20 15:12
P
Peter van Muyden
Nationality: Canada
Certifications:
  • International Race Officer
0
Here is another example

  1. 50 boats registered 
  2. In races 1-3 boat Alpha finishes in 1st place. 
  3. In race 4 boat Alpha is in 2nd place and notices that boat Bravo, who is ahead of him, is in danger.
  4. as per the RRS boat Alpha helps boat Bravo who eventually retires.
  5. Boat Alpha continues on and is the last boat to finish within the finishing window
  6. 10 boats failed to finish within the finishing window
  7. Boat Alpha requests and receives redress for race 4 of average point of races 1-3;  1 point
  8. The ten TLE boats will receive, as per the current instruction, a score of 2 or 3 points in race 4. This comprises 1 point for Alpha's score (points for the last boat to finish within the finish window), plus 1 or 2 points. 
Created: 25-Feb-20 15:19
P
Angelo Guarino
Forum Moderator
Nationality: United States
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Jerry re:"only if A5.3 is invoked by the NOR or Sis."

Yea ... that's one way. Very often I see SI's where they skip A5.3 and roll their own custom one. 
Created: 25-Feb-20 15:34
Thomas OConor
0
Interesting comments- thanks.
In answer to David Nieman: "A boat that is OCS has not met the definition of Start."
and
Craig Priniski: "You wouldn't be scored finished or TLE if you were OCS.  You can only finish after starting... "
Though common sense indicates that you cannot "finish" without "starting", the definition of "finish" in the RRS makes no mention of starting, and "finish" is the term used in the SIs Guide for scoring TLE and so wouldn't OCS boats would meet the definition of "finish" for TLE scoring?
Perhaps "start" should be added to the term "finish" in the  RRS definitions?
Created: 25-Feb-20 16:54
P
Peter van Muyden
Nationality: Canada
Certifications:
  • International Race Officer
0
Thomas,  start was removed from the definition of finish in the 2025-2028 rule book.  This was to allow for alternative OCS penalties.  e.g. In the Sydney-Hobart race you would not want a 100 foot OCS sled to restart.

The start requirement is now part of the Sail the Course definition which is invoked by RRS 28
Created: 25-Feb-20 17:38
Kett Cummins
0
Try this: "A boat scored TLE shall be scored [one][two] points more than the last place boat scored as finishing within the Finishing Window."

  • OCS boats are not scored as finishing.
  • Alpha, granted redress of 1st place, may have been the last boat to finish, but she is not the last place boat scored as finishing.

Note: I would also add "... but not worse than last place among the race starters."  That way, if only one boat out of all starters is TLE, they are still scored 1 point better than DNS, DSQ, etc.
Created: 25-Feb-20 17:53
Thomas OConor
0
Thanks all. This has been helpful.
Created: 25-Feb-20 18:09
Philip Hubbell
Certifications:
  • Club Race Officer
  • Judge In Training
0
'sailed the course and finished'  is partially redundant.
'sailed the course" is sufficient. 
Created: 25-Feb-20 18:49
Bill Stump
Certifications:
  • National Race Officer
0 
‘TLE’ is not a defined scoring term in RRS.  The SI and NoR guides are not rules.  So, the ‘TLE’ scoring penalty is whatever your SI state it to be and how it is to be calculated.  In large dinghy fleets, like Optis, we often use finishers ++.  In other fleets, starters (not entrants) ++ is more appropriate.  That said, a boat has to ‘sail the course’, RRS 28.1, which is defined and includes ‘starting’, also defined.  So, the OCS boat has not ‘started’, thus will not have ‘sailed the course’, and should not be counted as a ‘finisher’ even though she may have crossed the finish line.  Cheers.
Created: 25-Feb-20 18:53
P
Niko Kotsatos
Nationality: Australia
Certifications:
  • Judge In Training
0
Some have suggested that TLE can be too big a benefit for some boats when only a small portion of the fleet finishes. One could instead use the following definition, which keeps approximately the same total points awarded in the race:
"A boat scored TLE shall be scored points equal to F + X where...
  • F is boats that sailed the course and finished the within the Finishing Window
  • and X is (Starters - F) / 2"

An adjustment is needed for systems other than low point scoring.
Created: 25-Feb-20 20:14
John Allan
Nationality: Australia
Certifications:
  • National Race Officer
  • National Judge
0
Philip 'sailed the course and finished'  is partially redundant.
'sailed the course" is sufficient. 

I don't think so.

'... sailed the course within the Finishing Window', with the 2025  Definition Sail the Course  would mean

'started, sails around the course, and finished'

So a boat would have to sail the whole race within the 20 minutes or whatever is allowed in the Finishing Window.
Created: 25-Feb-20 22:02
Philip Hubbell
Certifications:
  • Club Race Officer
  • Judge In Training
0
Per the original posting:
"A boat scored TLE shall be scored points for the finishing place [one][two] more than the points scored by the last boat that SAILED THE COURSE within the Finishing Window."
Created: 25-Feb-21 00:35
Thomas OConor
0
OK, to try to wrap this up:
The suggested language in the 2021-24 SIs Guide (new one is not yet published) for scoring TLE is:
"A boat scored TLE shall be scored points for the finishing place [one][two] more than the points scored by the last boat that finished within the Finishing Window."
Since the 2025-28 definition of finish no longer includes the term start, the new definition would qualify OCS boats as finishers wrt the TLE wording.
Taking into account all the comments above, I believe the following wording for TLE scoring would work:
"A boat scored TLE shall be scored points for the finishing place [one][two] more than the points scored by the last boat that sailed the course and finished within the Finishing Window and is not otherwise penalized."
The fairness of using TLE is fodder for another forum.😊


Created: 25-Feb-21 04:02
David Nieman
0
Back to your original question, if a boat is OCS and thus hasnt met the definition of start, that boat doesn't meet the definition of "Sailed the Course" either so doesn't have a race to finish. That boat has technically not sailed the race, and should not be counted for applying TLE to other boats.
Created: 25-Feb-21 07:04
Philip Hubbell
Certifications:
  • Club Race Officer
  • Judge In Training
0
Thomas and John,
"...points scored by the last boat that sailed the course and finished within the Finishing Window..."
means:
"...points scored by the last boat that 1. started, 2. (string touched each mark), and 3. finished and finished within the Finishing Window..."
What is the purpose of the second "and finished?"
Created: 25-Feb-21 07:44
Leo Reise (IJ Retired)
Nationality: Canada
0
This will be a very long post - I wrote this prior to 2021-24 rules.  I have not cross-referenced any of the rule number to the 2025-28, but I believe the comments are still valid./.

Unintentional Consequences
Reprinted from the Sail Canada Judges Newsletter 
 with the permission of the Sail Canada Judges Committee
 (Revised January 2021)
 
The preamble to Appendix L, Sailing Instructions Guide, contains a number of principles that sailing instructions should be based upon. One of these principles is that the sailing instructions should not change a racing rule unless it is clearly desirable.
 
Prior to 2021 there was a sailing instruction in Appendix L that read:
 
“Boats failing to finish within ___ after the first boat sails the course and finishes will be scored Did Not Finish. This changes RRS 35, A4 and A5.”
 
The RC would then specify a time, often 30 minutes, whatever was logical or desired. The reason this instruction existed was to allow multiple races to take place on the same day without the need for the RC to wait for stragglers. This presupposed that the course was the proper length for the boats in the existing conditions and predicted conditions. It assumed the reason for the time difference was sailing ability.
 
With the implementation of The Racing Rules of Sailing for 2021–2024, this sailing instruction has changed to:
 
“The Finishing Window is the time for boats to finish after the first boat sails the course and finishes. Boats failing to finish within the Finishing Window, and not subsequently retiring, penalized or given redress, will be scored Time Limit Expired (TLE) without a hearing. A boat scored TLE shall be scored points for the finishing place [one][two] more than the points scored by the last boat that finished within the Finishing Window. This changes RRS 35, A5.1, A5.2 and A10.”
 
The argument for the addition of a TLE score is based on “fairness.” A DNF is scored one more than the number of boats entered in the series, in a large fleet that could be a very large difference. A boat scored with a DNF might have a difficult time in overcoming the point difference. It is easy to see why some would think this is a very good change. After all, if there is a sudden wind failure and the first few boats finish leaving the rest to languish, why should the sailors suffer the consequences? It was not their fault the RC did not foresee the problem and shorten course or abandon the race before any boat finished. The RC equally argues that it was not their fault the wind suddenly died and really the sailors should not take the brunt of an unforeseeable event.
 
There is a very old saying about a road and good intentions or while the concept appears well serving, the devil is in the details. Here are some questions the jury should be prepared to answer and / or deal with because of the use of the TLE score. There is a concern that with the addition of the TLE without offering the alternative of a DNF as was the case before 2021 will create some unintended consequences.


 
The very first question to be answered is:
Does TLE replace DNF or is TLE in addition to DNF?
 
The juries have interpreted TLE as addition to rules A5.1, A5.2 and A10, and not a replacement for DNF. Unless of course the sailing instructions explicitly replace DNF with TLE – it should be stressed that this is not automatic.
 
Will a score of TLE distort a series results?
 
In a large fleet, TLE makes a huge difference in scoring. Perhaps not for the leaders, but it certainly is a possibility. In a small fleet the impact may not be as great point wise.
 
As an example, at a world championship the wind went light, and the boats were sailing against an adverse current. Since most boats had started the downwind leg there was no method for the RC to shorten course. The options were to abandon before the first boat finished or hope for the best. The RC elected to let the boats continue racing. In this case, 60 of 105 boats finished within the 30-minute finishing window.
 
The result: for most of the 45 boats scored TLE (42% of the fleet), point wise, it would be their best race of the series.
 
The TLE very much distorted the regatta total point scores for the bottom third of the fleet. Boats that were consistently scoring in the 70, 80 or 90 range would now have a 62-point score in one race. It also means that the boats normally scoring in the upper 90s would be scored as tied in that race with the boats that normally scored in the 60s. Fair?
 
What score would a boat get if she did drop out of a race because of an equipment failure, damage, or the crew was tired and just quit racing?
 
Unless the RC was so notified or can prove the boat stopped racing, it has no choice but to score her TLE. The only knowledge the RC has is the boat did not finish within the finishing window – and that merits a TLE score. This would include a boat that takes a retirement penalty under rule 44.1(b) but does not report taking that penalty. However, this could ultimately result in a rule 2 breach and penalty.
 
If a boat was scored DNF under those circumstances, would she be entitled to redress and granted a score of TLE? Without direct knowledge, supposing something is not proof.
 
This also leads to a discussion of the fairness of the score for a boat that drops out and admits it. According to the SI and rule A10, she is RET and scored 106 points no matter the reason for retiring.
 
While on the subject of penalties, using the regatta mentioned above, it also had a provision for arbitration and a boat may accept a 30% penalty before a hearing. Using the example of the 60 boats finishing out of a 105-boat fleet, any boat that finished after the 31st place boat and accepted a scoring penalty would receive a score worse than TLE.


 
If the principle stated in 44.3(c) (score no worse than a DNF) is used, should a boat accepting a scoring penalty have a score worse than a boat that did not finish within the finishing window? Is this an error by the RC? Is the boat’s score made significantly worse by a failure of the scoring system to address it? Is this an improper action or omission of the RC?
 
Should TLE be used to break ties? Appendix A8.1 is based on scores – not finishing places. Did the writers of the rules contemplate a scoring system that rewarded non-finishers?
 
If redress (RDG) is given based on average points using the example above, should a 62-point score be used when averaging the scores of a boat that scores consistently in the 70s, 80s or 90s? Consider a boat that scored 75, 77, 79, TLE (62), 76, 80 and is given redress (average points) in the next race. Should their score be 74 (counting TLE) or 77 (counting only the races in which she actually finished)? The jury must be very much aware of the effects of a TLE score. Instead of simply instructing the scorer to use the method described in rule A9(a) or A9(b), the jury should probably calculate the score to be awarded and discard the TLE.
 
Although the reasoning for the introduction of a TLE might have the best of intentions, it does introduce some unintended consequences. If softening the blow of a DNF is really and truly the goal of the OA and therefore the RC, then altering rule A5.2 from “the number of boats entered in a series” to “the number of boats finishing within the time limit” goes a long way to solving the some of the inequities cited, however doing so will surely introduce others.
 
From the jury perspective, we do not write the SIs – we can only interpret what is written and apply our knowledge of the rules and try to have a fair application of them. Some of the questions posed will be very difficult to answer if not adequately provided for in the NoR or SIs.
 
Created: 25-Feb-21 20:29
P
Angelo Guarino
Forum Moderator
Nationality: United States
Certifications:
  • Regional Judge
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Leo .. thank you posting that. 

Re: "This also leads to a discussion of the fairness of the score for a boat that drops out and admits it. According to the SI and rule A10, she is RET and scored 106 points no matter the reason for retiring."

I agree that this is an issue where TLE is involved.  We talked about an SI (in another thread) which would allow boats to hail the RC that they "will not finish". After doing so, the SI would state that they may use propulsion to exit the racing area and while doing so, they shall not interfere with any boat that is racing, taking care not to create wakes in light air conditions  (borrowing the language from 23.1). 

Some RO's replied that when they receive a call over the radio that a boat is "retiring" when becalmed, they "interpret" that and score that as a DNF/TLE instead of RET.  Being in a "we should say what we mean" camp, an SI is much more clear to everyone IMO. 
Created: 25-Feb-22 13:22
Jim Champ
0
> The TLE very much distorted the regatta total point scores for the bottom third of the fleet.

I just created a test set of results. 51 boats, 6 races to see what would happen. I scored it twice, once with TLE (so 9th) for all but the top 8, and once as a control with places based on average score for all but the top eight. There was a difference, but not huge. The TLE scoring gave quite a few more points ties in the final results, and quite a number of those ties broke in the opposite direction to the control. Points totals were naturally quite a lot lower towards the bottom end of the fleet, but I don't think I'd say the places were very much distorted. It may be that with real world results rather than my quickly slung together test the distortion would have been much greater, but on the whole I didn't think it was a disaster. Leo's point about boats that are scored starters plus N in the TLE race, on the other hand, is very apposite, and the OA should think very carefully about how to handle that. 

How would folk react to the concept of giving average points for TLE?
Created: 25-Mar-01 23:09
P
Peter van Muyden
Nationality: Canada
Certifications:
  • International Race Officer
0
I am not commenting on the fairness of TLE, but below is the TLE wording out of Appendix LG 2025

The Finishing Window is the time for boats to finish after the first boat sails the course. Boats starting but failing to sail the course within the Finishing Window, and not subsequently retiring, penalized or given redress, will be scored Time Limit Expired (TLE) without a hearing. A boat scored TLE shall be scored points for the finishing place [one][two] more than the finishing place of the last boat that sailed the course within the Finishing Window and was not penalised under RRS 30.3 or 30.4. This changes RRS 35, A5.1, A5.2 and A10.

It is my interpretation that if the last boat that sailed the course within the Finishing window and received a letter score (A10), the TLE points will be based on her finish place in the race and not her placing in the race after receiving the penalty.

I am interested to hear if others concur with this.

Created: Fri 04:08
Mark Townsend
Certifications:
  • International Race Officer
  • International Umpire
  • International Judge
0
Seems a reasonable interpretation. If you consider her placing in the race after receiving the penalty a boat could get more points that a DNF boat. 
Created: Fri 04:29
Nick Hutton
Certifications:
  • International Race Officer
0
While I am never going to use TLE, you guys shouldn't have all the fun. I interpret this clause as meaning 'the last boat without a penalty to finish in the finishing window'. Not the last boat to finish, even if she has a penalty, and before her penalty is applied. English is my first language. :) 
Created: Fri 04:52
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