Forum: The Racing Rules of Sailing

Difference in requirements for exoneration vs. redress

Matt Bounds
Nationality: United States
Certifications:
  • International Race Officer
  • National Judge
For redress to be granted pursuant to 60.4(b)(2) (injury or physical damage because of the action of a boat that was breaking a rule of Part 2 and took an appropriate penalty or was penalized), the protest committee must determine that either the boat breaking the rule retired from the race after the incident, or the boat breaking the rule was protested and penalized for breaking the rule of Part
2 in the incident (Case 135),

In essence, it must be proven that the boat breaking the rule actually broke the rule for redress to be granted under 60.4(b)(2).

However, exoneration is automatic and does not appear to have such a requirement. For example, RRS 43.1(a) states, "When as a consequence of breaking a rule a boat has compelled another boat to break a rule, the other boat is exonerated for her breach."  There is no requirement in the rule that the other boat take a penalty or retire. 

Suppose a third boat witnesses the incident and protests the original boat (the one compelled) for breaking a rule? The boat supposedly breaking a rule does not take a penalty or retire.  In the hearing, the original boat states they were compelled to break a rule. 3rd party doesn't believe they were compelled and neither does the boat supposedly breaking a rule.

Must the compelled boat protest the boat that compelled them to break a rule? What if the PC decides that no rule was broken?

The working of the rules (60.4(b)(2) and 43) notwithstanding, why is there no requirement that the compelling boat be proven to have broken a rule for exoneration of the boat compelled to break a rule? 

Discuss . . . 
Created: Thu 11:45

Comments

John Porter
Certifications:
  • National Judge
  • Club Race Officer
0
Matt, 

I think this is what you're setting up:

1. While beating to windward, Boat A on starboard comes together with Boat B on port, overlapped to leeward of boat C.
2. Boat A ducks boat B and C,
3. Boat D is 10 hull lengths behind A and hears some spirited conversation. 
4. Boat D thinks Boat C compelled B to break rule 10 and protests C. 

I think this should go something like this:

Boat C comes to the hearing and states, "Why am I here? Neither A nor B said anything to me. Boat D had his flag up and told me he was protesting me the next time we were near each other, but I have no idea what he thinks I did. 

The PC calls A and B as witnesses. and finds that the "spirited conversation" was "Tack or cross"......"cross".

Conclusions:

Boat B on port kept clear of boat A on starboard and complied with RRS 10. 
Boat C did not compel Boat B to break a rule, nor did she break a rule. 

Decision

Protest Dismissed
Created: Thu 12:54
P
Michael Butterfield
Certifications:
  • International Judge
  • International Umpire
  • International Race Officer
0
if there is a hearing and we thought another boat broke a rule, and we not join hem in the hearing as a party if they can be identified? When damage or injury especially.
"Exoneration for her breach" could that not be an appropriate penalty?
Redress is a benefit to competitors not available in other sports, sometimes the rules fail but that does not mean there is great assistance to some sailors.
Created: Thu 13:05
Ant Davey
Nationality: United Kingdom
Certifications:
  • National Judge
  • International Judge
  • Umpire In Training
0
Thoughts of others please :
Windy conditions in a top level event with no qualification requirements. So, experts sailing among those with far less experience of the class.
High speed catamarans with very pointy bows.
Boat P contacts boat S at some speed and causes significant damage to boat S. Redress definitely available.
Boat P suffers little or no damage and retires.
But, does 43.1(a) over-rule Rule 14, which requires the ROW boat to retire because significant damage has been caused by the breach of Rule 14 ?

While one of my mentors has always said that sailing isn't 'fair', it's just our job to apply the rules as fairly as possible. The strictest application of Rule 14 in these cases always seems to me to be grossly unfair and not in the spirit of sportsmanship or fair play.
Discuss, please.
Created: Thu 13:38
Mark Townsend
Certifications:
  • International Race Officer
  • International Umpire
  • International Judge
1
Rule 14 does not require the right-of-way boat to retire because significant damage has been caused by the breach of Rule 14. Rule 14 requires the right-of-way boat to act to avoid contact when it is clear that the other boat is not keeping clear or giving room or mark-room. At that moment it may not be possible for the right-of-way boat to avoid contact. See Case 87.



Created: Thu 14:14
P
Michael Butterfield
Certifications:
  • International Judge
  • International Umpire
  • International Race Officer
0
I agree 14 does not require you to retire. You cannot however take a turns penalty if there is serious damage.

Created: Thu 14:24
Matt Bounds
Nationality: United States
Certifications:
  • International Race Officer
  • National Judge
0
The scenario I was envisioning is:
Exoneration Scenario.bmp 8.35 MB

Two boats on starboard tack (Yellow and Blue) approaching the pin end (port) of the finish line. Yellow hits the mark, breaking rule 31, but claims Blue compelled her to hit the mark by breaking rules 11 and 18.2(a)(1) and is therefore exonerated by 43.1(b).  Blue does not take a penalty or retire.

A third boat (Green) witnesses the incident and protests Yellow for breaking rule 31.

Is Yellow required to protest Blue in order to defend herself from Green's protest?


Created: Thu 14:35
Rick Myers
Nationality: United States
Certifications:
  • National Umpire
  • Club Race Officer
  • National Judge
0
Hi Matt. I don’t think that a protest is required but it does seem wrong.  

There are many reasons that a boat might not protest when they are fouled. 

My hope is that this is resolved going forward.  

A third party protest could win this protest and result in either boat being penalized. 


Created: Thu 22:00
P
Michael Butterfield
Certifications:
  • International Judge
  • International Umpire
  • International Race Officer
0
No it does not have to protest. Seeing another boat broke a rule may protest se 60.4(c) (2) and the matter would be resolved this way.
Created: Fri 10:41
P
Angelo Guarino
Forum Moderator
Nationality: United States
Certifications:
  • Regional Judge
0
Matt .. this is a great topic, as it offers several things to discuss and folk to realize.

I'm going to steal my own punchline and give the answer up front .. 

YES . a boat that is compelled to break a rule, as a result of another boat breaking a rule, even though the "compelled boat" is exonerated under 43.1(a) .. SHE SHOULD ALWAYS PROTEST THAT OTHER BOAT.

Here are some of the insights about the rule and some of my 'reasons why' .. 

1) Before we get started, its good to recognize RRS 43.1(a) requires only that the boat compelling another to break a rule, is also breaking a rule, not that they are breaking a rule and are not exonerated themselves under some part of RRS 43.  So, the compelling boat might also "have a reason" themselves .. they might also be compelled or they might be sailing within room or mark-room they are entitled to when they broke that rule and therefore are also exonerated for breaking a rule.  Or .. maybe not.

This is important in pin-wheel roundings where the inside boat gets no room but it is the outside boat #5 that is the actual culprit (or maybe #3 or #4).  The inside boat is exonerated, and each boat in turn, but they each should protest the boat compelling them as they might not know who caused it all .. the outside boat or someone in the middle.

2) Why the above is important is the focus of your OP.  If this protest gets to a PC and the ultimate "culprit" is not a party to the hearing (because the exonerated boat did not protest their compelling boat), you are leaving it up to the whims of the PC.  This is because the rules state that a committee "may" protest a boat when it learns information (in a hearing of a valid protest) that a boat, not party to the hearing, may have broken one or more rules in the incident.

A PC might handle this a few ways .. 

The PC might decide to protest Blue. During the hearing the PC learns about Blue.  Maybe Yellow says she was compelled by Blue but Green states that Blue was more than 1/2 a BL away when she crossed their sterns.  Both Green and Yellow confirmed Blue's involvement in the incident.  The PC might decide to stop the hearing, protest Blue, reconvene and start the hearing over with Yellow, Green and Blue as parties.

The PC might decide to not protest Blue, but acknowledge Blue's involvement in the incident.  Maybe both Green and Yellow state that Blue was there, and either their testimony align showing Blue compelling Yellow or maybe Yellow and Green disagree whether Blue compelled Yellow.  

Now the PC will decide based only on Yellow and Green's evidence and there is a chance that they find:
  1. that Blue did not break a rule and did not compel Yellow to break a rule.  Yellow is DSQ'd.
  2. that Blue did break a rule and compelled Yellow to break a rule, but Blue was exonerated by RRS 43 also.  Yellow's exoneration is confirmed.
  3. that Blue did break a rule and compelled Yellow to break a rule, and Blue was not exonerated by RRS 43.  In this instance, the PC will conclude that Blue broke a rule but decide that they can not penalize Blue because Blue was not a party to the hearing.  Yellow's exoneration is confirmed, but Blue is not penalized.

The PC might decide that there was no Blue boat. Well .. then Yellow stands little chance of being exonerated.

So, if you do not protest the compelling boat, you leave a lot to the discretion of the PC.
Created: Fri 11:30
P
Michael Butterfield
Certifications:
  • International Judge
  • International Umpire
  • International Race Officer
0
We judges do not want to spend our life in the room.
You should be exonerated if someone protests you which is unlikely.
Sit back and let process happen, you will generally be very happy.
Do not protest!
Created: Fri 18:50
Paul Murray
Certifications:
  • Regional Judge
1
I am in Angelo’s camp on this one. Green, in accordance with the Principles “Competitors in the sport of sailing are governed by a body of rules that they are expected to follow and enforce.” Seeing a boat break 31 and protesting that boat would be in accordance with the principles and as the boat that breaks 31 protesting the yellow boat saves time and helps constrain what the PC’s options are (and also following the principles of enforcing the rules) which then should combine the protests, take the PC then holds a hearing, takes testimony and resolve the protest based on the evidence from the hearing.  They would need only to find facts that support the conclusions of 1. Yellow touched a mark/did not touch a mark and broke 31.   2. That blue kept clear/did not keep clear of yellow and broke/ did not break 11 and 18.2. 
3. Blue compelled/did not compel yellow to touch the mark. 

Results.  No rule was broken 

Or blue broke 11 and or 18.2 and is dsq, yellow broke 31 and is exonerated 

Or blue broke 11and/or 18.2 and is dsq (case where yellow didn’t touch the mark)


Created: Sat 14:41
P
Michael Butterfield
Certifications:
  • International Judge
  • International Umpire
  • International Race Officer
0
Why if ypu believe you are exonerated would you want to protest and risk putting your finishing position the the hands of an outside party the jury.?
Created: Sat 15:34
Rick Myers
Nationality: United States
Certifications:
  • National Umpire
  • Club Race Officer
  • National Judge
0
Hi Michael.  That is indeed the rub. One of our challenges is the self policing of our sport.  It’s a blessing and a curse. 

By not protesting, you are advantaging the offending boat in relation to not only your position but the position of all the other competitors that did not break a rule in that race.  I do think there is a fundamental unfairness in that.  
The boat that broke the rule has an obligation to protest the other boat if they saw them break a rule.  If they do not because they assumed exoneration due to their foul are they not violation the Basic Principles. 

I’m conflicted here and I don’t really know the “right” answer.  

Rick
Created: Sat 16:19
P
Michael Butterfield
Certifications:
  • International Judge
  • International Umpire
  • International Race Officer
0
When i sit at the windward mark watching collisions with the mark,  i see no appetite for competitors protesting.
The fundamental rule refers to the fundamental principle of sportsmanship when not exonerated to take a penalty. 
Ws chose not to say to prorest when you see an infringement. 
Created: Sat 16:29
Rick Myers
Nationality: United States
Certifications:
  • National Umpire
  • Club Race Officer
  • National Judge
0
I agree completely Michael.  It seems to me that is a problem with our game.  It’s a huge barrier to entry for newer sailors.  The idea that the rules are not being followed is scary.  I’d like to figure out a way to keep the Corinthian spirit of the sport and promote fair sailing.  
Created: Sat 16:43
Jerry Thompson
Nationality: United States
Certifications:
  • National Judge
  • Umpire In Training
  • Regional Race Officer
0

“Competitor enforcement of the rules is the tradition in our sport, and when the rules are not followed, we owe it to ourselves and our fellow competitors, for the quality of racing, to protest.”
Bill Ficker, skipper of INTREPID in the 1970 Cup defense against GRETEL II, National Sailing Hall of Fame
Created: Sat 19:18
P
Michael Butterfield
Certifications:
  • International Judge
  • International Umpire
  • International Race Officer
0
I can understand the skipper of a match racing boat talking of enforcing the rules. That is how they may win races. Is it so simple with say 80 boat fleets?
Created: Yesterday 12:01
P
Angelo Guarino
Forum Moderator
Nationality: United States
Certifications:
  • Regional Judge
0
Mike re: "Is it so simple with say 80 boat fleets?"

Mike, in a match race, you have umpire boats trailing and applying penalties.

In a fleet race, each competitor is the rule-enforcement-eyes for the rest of the fleet.   Unless there is OTW judging, that's all we have in fleet racing.   

We must rely upon boats to "follow and enforce" the rules as they are called-upon and "expected" to do. 
Created: Yesterday 15:39
Rick Myers
Nationality: United States
Certifications:
  • National Umpire
  • Club Race Officer
  • National Judge
0
A competitor can only control the interactions they are involved in or see but if everyone holds the fleet and themselves to a high standard we will all be better off.  
Created: Yesterday 21:42
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