Forum: The Racing Rules of Sailing
Mark Room at Windward Mark.
Phil Clinton
Nationality: Australia
Certifications:
- Club Judge
- Club Race Officer
0
This was sent to me by a friend. My answer to the 3 questions posed are Yes to all. Answer looks straight forward but am I missing something?
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John
Also look closely at mark-room and what it says about room-to-tack.
Post what you come up with and folk here will check it for you.
1. The definition of overlap answers the first question. Boats can in fact be defined as overlapped going upwind, so your first answer is correct.
2. Because Boat 1 entered the zone clear ahead, RRS 18.2(b) requires that Boat 2 give Boat 1 mark-room. Boat 2 proceeds to create a inside overlap at their peril. If they fail to give Boat 1 room to sail to the mark when her proper course is to sail close to it, they failed to give mark-room. So your second answer is also correct.
3. The definition of mark-room allows boat 1 to round the mark as necessary to sail her proper course. So assuming the next mark is downwind, Boat 1's proper course is to tack at the mark (and perhaps gybe). The only tricky part of this question is whether or not the boat with mark-room is 1. sailing her proper course, and; 2 within mark-room. If both are true, she may tack and the obligated boat must give her room to round the mark (and Boat 1 is exonerated under RRS 21 for breaking RRS 10 or 13). And you must read RRS 18.2(d) to understand why it doesn't apply. It only applies once mark-room has been given. You will find loads of discussion concerning when mark-room has been given, but in your diagram, Boat 1 is still clearly within the mark-room as defined in the rules. So your third answer is not correct.
As soon as Boat 1 passed HTW, 18.2(d) shuts off 18.2(b-c). Mark room doesn’t include room to tack as Boat 1 wasn’t overlapped to windward. After Boat 1 passed HTW, 18.2(a) can’t apply as they are on opposite tacks.
So, 18.2(a-c) don’t apply and thus no remaining basis for mark-room.
What am I missing?
Your last sentence of 3 is not correct. Once mark-room rights are turned-off by 18.2(d), that specific room-right doesn't get "restored". New mark-room rights can occur, but each new occurrence is never a resurrection of an old one.
Therefore, in your final #3 sentence, if Boat 1 tacks back and becomes overlapped to leeward of Boat 2, then Boat 2 will have mark-room, not Boat 1.
Here is how it plays out ...
18.2(a) doesn't apply[18.1 (a/b) turns-off 18] as they are on opposite tacks [and/or if Boat 1 is fetching the mark after tacking]., so 18 is still in effect, but since 18.2(a,b,c) don't apply, [but] neither boat has mark roomI think we're in agreement here, just semantics. What I meant was that Boat 1 had an entitlement to mark room, then they didn't and then they did again.
If they're on opposite tacks in the zone, doesn't 18.1a turn 18 off?
So, yea .. if you move the boat's laylines up so that a port-rounding is somewhat possible without 2 tacks .. then I can see what you were getting at and what you wrote was correct (and if you reread what I wrote with a STB rounding in mind, you'll see what I was getting at).
Yes, you are correct, my mistake.18 is off at that moment due to 18.1(a) .. and 18.1(b) for that matter.
Then 18 is back on when they are on the same tack in the zone and with a port-rounding scenario (your drawing), yes, Boat 1 would regain mark-room under 18.2(a).
Sorry for the confusion.
In that case Boat 1 has ROW as long as she's clear ahead or overlapped to leeward, and is owed mark room by Boat 2 (18.2b) unless she passes head to wind in the zone. Boat 1 can luff up to HTW but cannot tack unless she can keep clear of Boat 2 while doing so. If Boat 2 establishes a windward overlap inside the zone I don't think Boat 1 has to give her room to tack (room for her stern to swing) since Boat 2 would not be entitled to mark room.
And I don't think anything obligates Boat 2 to tack to round the mark - I think she can continue to sail Boat 1 up the course a ways, can she not?
B is not entitled to mark-room and if I was Y @4, I'd be sailing above close hauled to keep clear and yelling bloody blue murder.
I dunno what's so different. Sometimes windward marks are port rounding, sometimes they're starboard rounding. I think the pecked line in Phil's original diagram made it pretty clear that it was a starboard rounding.
Yes.
But I'm uncomfortable with the assertion that Boat 1 'cannot tack...' and I'm even less comfortable with the earlier assertion that 'If Boat 1 can't keep clear she is not entitled to tack'
Nothing in the rules says that a boat cannot tack, or is, or is not entitled to tack. The rules just say what boats rights and entitlements are if she does tack.
Boat 1's proper course it to sail close to the mark, she is entitled to mark-room to sail to the mark, that is as close to the mark as she chooses (without touching it), and then to round it, again, as close to it as she chooses.
If Boat 2 gets the late inside overlap, Boat 1 can, and usually would scrape Boat 2 off on the mark, or force her outside it.
The pin-out situation in Case 15 occurred because the outside mark-room entitled boat stayed wide of the mark instead of sailing to it.
Great catch John .. thanks for that correction in the port-rounding scenario. - Ang
It's only the sink drains that naturally spin the opposite direction .. not boat roundings :-)
What else goes clockwise down the plughole in the Southern Hemisphere?
I drew it up for him and suggested the following analysis: (please pipe-up if you find an error)
At 2, they are overlapped when Blue enters the zone
Note: 18.4 never applies
How about you repeat the analysis including right of way, for all the transitions as follows
@1, what is the right of way situation?
@2, the first of the boats reaches the zone
@3 Y passes head to wind
@3.5 B passes head to wind
@5 + delta B passes head to wind
@5 + 2delta, Y passes head to wind
@6 - 2delta, B reaches close hauled course
@6 - delta, Y reaches close hauled course
@7 - delta, B becomes clear ahead of Y
Maybe I'll give someone else a chance here to fill-in all the blanks and take a swing. If no one else wants to play, I'll do it.
Any takers?
OK .. I'll doesn't look like anyone else is game, so take a whack at it. I redid the drawing positioning the boats at each critical point-of-sail change. Also, this is a port-rounding, windward-mark scenario assuming that RRS 17 does not apply between B and Y.
@1 blue RoW rule 11
@2 blue RoW 11, blue entitled mark room 18.2 b
@3 yellow (if) past HTW, 18 turned off. Yellow is between HTW and close hauled on new tack must keep clear - 13. and 10,11,12 do not apply
@3.5 B passes HTW, 18 turned off. B must keep clear while tacking, 13. 10,11,12 do not apply.
@4 rule 11 applies, blue is windward and must keep clear, but is entitled to mark room 18.2.a., and is close hauled to windward therefore entitled to room to tack Defn. mark room (b)
@5 Blue passes HTW; boats are overlapped. Blue's tack is part of tacking and is entitled to room including for the tack and is ROW under defn of Mark Room to which she is entitled 18.2 a
@5 yellow passes HTW must keep clear 13. 10,11,12 do not apply. Is still bound by 18.2.a to give mark room to Blue. Yellow thereafter is windward obliged by 11
@6 yellow is windward overlapped 11. or if not overlapped is astern still bound by 18 2 b
@7 18.2.d blue has been given mark room. is clear ahead. Yellow bound by 12
How did I go??
Pretty good.
@3+delta, rule 18 went off when Y went onto opposite tack (port) to B.
@3.5, then, B passes head to wind onto port tack, same as Y, boats are again on same tack, overlapped, rule 18, specifically rule 18.2a applies, and B is again entitled to mark-room. The transition occurs when a boat changes tack by passing head to wind, it does NOT await the boat reaching close hauled.
@5 when B passes head to wind, boats are on opposite tacks, still on a beat to windward, rule 18 in its entirity cases to apply
Case 95
@6 if B is clear ahead, boats are no longer overlapped an rule 18.2a does not apply, B is not entitled to mark-room.
At 7 in the last diagram they're still overlapped. Blue is leeward ROW and probably still entitled to mark room until her stern passes the mark, so as Blue continues to bear away as necessary to sail the course Yellow must continue to keep clear and provide enough room for Blue's stern to swing. Assuming they both continue to bear away the overlap should be broken shortly after 7 with Blue clear ahead and entitlement to mark room ended as you say.
I notice the two diagrams are a little differrent but all points seem to have come out.
I think Yelow's tactical options were two;
tack immediately before entering boats have entered the zone so when blue enters there is no overlap. Then when both tack again, yellow fetching on stb and blue on port, 18 is not on.
Or, yellow continues on stbd from @1 and @2 and when DDW from mark, luffs to 'pinch' the mark without luffing beyond HTW. Yellow being on a beat but to leeward is inside but does not have right to luff beyond HTW so if they don't themselves luff HTW as Tims says, ie proper course, then they cannot lay the mark without luffing beyond HTW. So effectily they give up their rights if they don't luff to lay the mark before they are DDW from it.
And following from that. If they do luff and its not certain if they will 'carry' to the mark, then yellow should luff HTW and keep clear 11, but not go beyond HTW, thereby forcing blue to either fetch the mark or, if they don't they won't have right to go beyond HTW and only option will be to bear away and gybe back around, and hope there's not a stbd pack approaching.
That helps me remember in the hearing room to ask about where and how the overlap began when a party plops the first 2 boat models down overlapped.
I couldn't quite get the point(s) you were trying to get clarified in the scenario we've been discussing, given that the diagrams didn't shown any potential rules breach incidents.
I wonder if this helps you along:
Where boats enter the zone around a windward mark with one boat entitled to what might be called ‘enduring’ mark-room under rule 18.2b and one boat tacks, rule 18 ceases to apply and while boat are on opposite tacks on a beat to windward, only the Right of Way Rules (limited by rules 15 and 16) apply.