Appendix A - Scoring
"A11. SCORING ABBREVIATIONS

 "These scoring abbreviations shall be used for recording the circumstances described: 

"DNC Did not start, did not come to the starting area
"DNS Did not start (other than DNC and OCS)"

Nothing here about intention.
Nor any difference between a fixed starting line and your situation.

Hi Kirsteen,

Rule 3.1(a) says:

By participating or intending to participate in a race conducted under these rules, each competitor and boat owner agrees to accept these rules.

I'm of the opinion, however, that 3.1(a) simply makes clear when a boat agrees to be bound by the rules, rather than affecting how the application of the rules.  Accordingly, if in the given circumstances, the issue came to a hearing, I think it's likely that a PC wound determine that:Boat A should be scored OCS and Boat B scored DNS..

Phil..

How does the Competitor Start Boat process work? 

Tim
In brief, for an off-wind (not beating) start, at the preparatory signal, the CSB starts sailing as slowly as possible in the direction of the course.  At the starting signal, all boats must be to leeward and behind the CSB (the sailing instructions are rather longer than that, of course).  It's only relevant to the question to the extent that the RYA case refers to whether the race committee/start line is still present when a boat is in the starting area; in our case, the 'starting area' is obviously moving (part of the skill of starting is anticipating where it will be).  
Kirsteen

We had a variation on this DNC/DNS conundrum recently, and would appreciate any input:
It was a 2-race day in the harbour here in Hong Kong.
The first race was part of Series A, and the second race was part of Series B. Both series consist of 6 races each, held on consecutive Saturdays - our standard racing format.
Boats enter each series in advance, and sign on each week for that Saturday's races.
Yesterday, one boat had gear failure in the first race (Series A), retired, informed the race committee by VHF, and sailed home. They were back on the pontoon, a mile away from the race area, by the time the second race started.
Should the boat be scored DNF/DNC, or DNF/DNS? It has implications, as the way we operate the scores are different: DNC = Total Series Entrants + 1, and DNS = Race Entrants + 1.

As a side note, this slightly unusual series structure (different Series on same day, DNC/DNS scores differently) is designed around HK work/travel. With our system, people can be travelling on a given Saturday without getting two DNCs in the same Series, which would ruin their chances in the series as each series only has one discard. In our format, they just get one DNC in both series, so they're still in the hunt after discard. And DNS isn't as bad as DNC because you may well have done your best to be there but just couldn't make it.

Jamie,

Seemingly you have 2 different series with 2 different starting times, with a significant interval between the starts.

The boat came to the starting area, started then retired in the first race,  the race in series A.  She should be scored RET in that race.

She then left the racing area and did not come to the starting area for the second,  Series B race.  She should be scored DNC in that race.

That is unless your SI somehow provide that a boat that came to the starting area for the first race shall not be scored DNC in the second race.

If the boat was made fast to the pontoon at the preparatory signal for the second race, and  they didn't like the DNC score, they might consider RRS 45.

Kirsteen this is interesting.  So you have an 80nm point to point race. Likely a nice party and events anticipated at the end?  Maybe a return race as part of this or other racing happening the following days at this destination? Or is this the “return race” from a previous “feeder race”?

Also, do your SI’s reference “Alternate Starting Penalties” (DR 21-01) or other language which assess a penalty less than DSQ for OCS and instructs the OCS boat not to correct their start?  If so I think I might come to a different answer. 

Finally, do your SI’s reference A5.3?

1. No Alt Starting Penalty and no A5.3

Boat A notifies the RC that they are not going to wait for the start and that they are heading to the destination to avoid bad weather and Boat A does what she says.  Without an alt starting penalty, OCS, DNS (OCS is just a type of DNS) are  equivalent. Scoring above doesn’t change as A5.2 scores are based upon number of entries. 

I think I might find that Boat A withdrew from the race prior to the start and therefore would be DNC.  Boat A’s comm could be interpreted as basically  “I’m out …. See you at the party” 

2. Alt Starting Penalty exists

Boat A notifies RC that she will be OCS.  The SI’s apply a penalty less than DNS. In that case, I might find that her communication to the RC could be interpreted as she’s fine with the Alt Starting Penalty. 

Boat B seems clearly DNF, unless there was a TL or other limits on starting after the starting signal. 

When it comes to Boat A, it may be that Boat A disagrees with your decision.  If they have a problem, they can ask for redress and make the case on how the RC misinterpreted their communication and actions. 

That particular event was the final race in a 'Channel Week', a series of passage style races with courses set according to forecast conditions and tide, but we certainly do use the same approach for feeder races.  A5.3 is referenced and alternate starting penalties exist.  There was no time limit but neither boat crossed the finish line.   As you say, for the boats in question, DNS/OCS/DNF all score the same, so from that perspective it doesn't matter.  But DNC scores higher for the boats concerned (as A5.3 applies).  It could also impact on the scores of any other boats that didn't finish, since DNF points would be higher if those 2 boats were scored as competing (DNS etc) than if they were scored as DNC.  So the point of my question was whether, if a boat that has said they don't intend to start (or finish), happens to be in the area of the start, but does not start, should be, nonetheless, be scored as competing or not.  (In the event, every other boat did finish so no impact on other competitors and no protest.)  

Kirsteen re: “As you say, for the boats in question, DNS/OCS/DNF all score the same, so from that perspective it doesn't matter.”

If Alt Starting Penalties exist, that’s possibly not true as OCS might receive that penalty (if the boat meets the parameters set out in the Alt Start Penalty).   What are the parameters of the Alt Starting Penalty?  Did it utilize/ref DR 22-01?

PS: If the Alt Starting Penalty does not use DR 21-01 it should in the future as the DR makes those sort of Alt Starting Penalties possible in the 2020 quad (see DR 21-01 “BACKGROUND AND DESIRED OUTCOME”)

The event pre-dated DR21-01 (this is an old thread).  I don't recall our alternate penalties at the time; however, any OCS penalty is only relevant if a boat finishes, and neither boat did, so in this case DNF would 'trump' OCS.  Our current SIs do apply DR21-01 for conventional starts (see Section 8 of Notice of Race,https://www.offshoresolo.com/userfiles/file/pdfs/2023%20Season/SORC-2023-NoR-1.0.pdf ) but it is difficult to apply that to the Competitor Start Boat starts (see Appendix to General Sailing Instructions, https://www.offshoresolo.com/userfiles/file/pdfs/2023%20Season/SORC-2023-General-SIs.pdf) as the 'Start Line' is no longer clearly defined after the Competitor Start Boat has moved on.  I note that you reference an update to DR21-01, which we may need to address for the next season.