The Racing Rules of Sailing
The Definition of Finish, (c) continues to sail the course
Can anyone share a scenario where a boat finishes, and then continues to sail the course?
Created: 25-Jul-16 16:40
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In the case where there are multiple loops and someone is crossing the Finish during one or more of those loops, one has not Sailed The Course and then Finished. If the RC wishes to Shorten Course in either case, they are free to do so in accordance with the Rules.
EG: The course requires four laps around a loop and each lap includes the Finish Line. Until the final lap, or the RC shortens the course, a Yacht has not Finished the race despite transiting the Finish Line.
Based upon def: finish, as soon as you determine the condition of your question is satisfied .. "and then continues to sail the course?" ... that by definition makes the boat's finish-line crossing NOT a finish
We also have Case 148 (generated from a thread on RRoS.org) which discusses "when" a boat is considered to have continued to sail the course.
We did this all the time in the Magothy River north of Annapolis. After starting all the fleets, the RC would often flop to the other side of the starting-pin so it can be rounded to port or finished using the same approach. Often we would setup a "hopeful" # of loops ... but shorten by removing a last lap.
You techhnically finish on each lap but continue to sail the course.
I think you meant to ask ..:
Course : Start - 1 - 2s/2p - Finish - 2 Laos
For the definition, consider a boat being unclear whether they have sailed the correct number of laps. They complete the race, cross the line, but being uncertain as to whether or not they have completed the race, sail another lap.
The case requires the PC to make a dubious value judgement, including, to my mind, a judgement by the PC about what the crew were thinking rather than actual verifiable facts. Its not immediately apparent to me why its desirable for the boat that stops for a few seconds to discuss whether they have completed the race to be counted as having finished, and thus DSQ, and the boat that keeps moving while having the same discussion to be counted as not finished and able to complete the course and be placed.
I think there is a distinct difference between the act of Finishing, at the end of Sailing The Course, vs crossing the finish line at all other times. Finishing, is predicated on having Sailed the Course. Put another way: A boat can only qualify to Finish as an integral part of Sailing the Course. This is the way our language works and it happens all the time. This is the reason many Race Committees explicitly make the Finish Line an Obstacle unless one is Finishing. The Race Committee is explicitly recognizing the difference between crossing the finish line and Finishing. The converse is also the case, where the Race Committee requires all boats to pass through the finish line as a part of Sailing The Course for any number of reasons: counting noses, photo op for the press, making it easy to shorten course at that point, etc...
With regard to Case 148 and "continues to sail the course", there are numerous examples of situations where competitors cross the finish line without Finishing. EG: match racing where boats drive each other all over the course for tactical reasons, significant current advantages by sailing through the finish line, etc... Those are ignored as the boats involved have not achieved the status or situation of a pending Finish because they have not Sailed The Course.
Case 148 requires the Jury to determine the intent of the competitors, which I personally believe is an extremely difficult thing to do fairly, as intent seems to change once the consequences of the various optional intents become clear to competitors. I personally believe it would be more helpful to leave out any determination of intent, and stick to the fact that a Boat can't Finish until it is completing the act of Sailing the Course. I believe this will successfully deal with the example in Case 148 and not encumber the Jury with discovering intent.
What am I missing here??
On a multi-lap course, why is a boat not considered finished if, after her starting signal, any part of her hull crosses the finish line from the course side before completing all required laps?
The finish line is defined in the sailing instructions as a line between two finish marks. What rule or definition says that the finish line is at the end of the last leg of a course"?
This exception was introduced to enable the running of multi-lap races. Without it, such formats wouldn't be possible.
C'mon Mark, give us a break.
A leg is the portion of a course between 2 consecutive marks n'est-ce pas?
So in the gold cup type course you've described, the last leg of the course is 2s/2p - Finish.
If the sailor cleared the finish line and marks after finishing, then he was no longer racing. The only way to get back to racing is through a start sequence. The sailor would need to be careful about sailing among boats still racing or risk breaking RRS 23.1. So, if he cleared the line he was done racing, score him the first time he crossed the finish line. If he didn't clear the line and marks, he was still racing, score the second time he crossed the finish line.
The course diagram and course legend. See the example below for Course 1. Yellow is on the second leg when she touches P, does she break a rule?
Green is on the third leg and passing though the "counting gate" or "safety gate" or just the gate. Does she finish and continue to sail the course?
History – The clause, (c) continues to sail the course, was added to the definition of Finish in the 2013-2016 RRS. Submission 251-11 contains the following:
“Many race committees set a course that requires boats to sail two or more laps, with the added requirement that they cross the finishing line at the end of each lap. This course is frequently used for informal local races. Technically speaking, under the current
definition, the boats “finish” at the end of the first lap, but obviously that is not what is intended when such a course is used. The same issue can arise when other types of courses are used. As Q&A E7 (Q&A 2009-026) shows, there are situations when a boat
inadvertently crosses the finishing line in the direction of the course from the last mark well before she has finished sailing the course. The addition of “continues to sail the course” to the second sentence proposed in Proposal 3 makes it clear that, if such a boat continues to sail the course after crossing the line, she has not finished.”
Any Indy car or NASCAR fans out there? The competitors pass through the start/finish many times, but when do they finish? The last lap. Speed skating, cross country skiing and I expect many more sports round a course multiple times but only finish at the end of the last lap.
I just wonder why in sailboat racing we need to be different? Oh, look at me, I'm rambling again. Catch you later on down the trail.
No. P does not begin, bound or end the leg of the course on which she is sailing.
It is not possible to 'finish and continue to sail the course. If a boat crosses the finishing line from the course side and continues to sail the course she has not finished.
Yes, I agree John. I had in my mind when she crossed the finish line from the course side she finished. At that point there is not enough information to make that determination. The three conditions must first be tested to get to finished.
Thanks
Though I suppose it's entirely possible the RC might not know of sure if the course had been sailed. This has indeed happened to me in cases where a boat skipped a mark, and I've seen it happen when a newb racer went around once and the RC was unaware, as the finish was simultaneous with the leaders.
When we have multiple laps and you cross the finish line on an earlier lap, you then continue to sail the course and have not finished.
When there is a shorten course, you have finished, there is no further course to sail as the race is finished. The old complete course is cancelled effectively and replaced with the new shorter course.
Its a bit of a circular argument though, in that the definition of sailing the course terminates when she finishes, and the definition of finish activates when she has sailed the course.
I suppose what I don't like is the concept that you can finish without having sailed the (complete) course. That's what I really don't like about Case 148. A boat should not be regarded as finished if she hasn't sailed the course, and thus denied the opportunity to correct her error. I accept that its often impossible for the RC on the finishing line to know whether a boat has in fact completed the course and is "really" finishing, but I don't see that the distinction drawn in Case 148 between a boat that keeps moving and one that stops is either useful or just.
The way I was looking at it was what the rules transitions mean to the boat itself and the boats around them.
A boat that is no longer racing is subject to RRS 23.1 and not as exposed to penalty for breaking rules of Part 2/31 If the boat sailed the course ... and crosses a generous finish-line in the middle of the line, a boat is no longer racing the moment her stern clears the line. At that moment, she is subject to 23.1 and less exposed to penalty. If she is ROW clear ahead of other boats still crossing the line, though she is ROW, she has an obligation to try to stay out of the way and make the line clear. A boat that has not finished, does not have that same obligation.
My original point was that rules should not turn on/off retroactively based upon the future actions of a boat. That what rules apply at any moment should be clear to the boat and boats around her AT THAT VERY MOMENT.
That is where the fairness and justice of Case 138 comes. If a boat's actions are contiguously consistent with "sailing the course", then the boats around her have a chance to interpret those actions as her still being in a state of "racing" and can interact with her appropriately.
On the other hand the boat douses her spin and doesn't round an end ... and appears to others that she's not continuing to sail the course, then likewise boats around her can judge her state as not racing.
It's not "useful or just" for a boat to change her mind and "continue" to sail the course .. when there was no continuity to "continue" ... and in doing so ... have her racing-state in the meantime be retroactively changed from not racing to racing.
A boat shouldn't be able to enter in and out of a state of racing more than once in a single race.
Let assume that at position 6 the boat touches mark S/F as she passes by it. Does she break RRS 31? I don't think so as mark S/F does not begin, bound or end the leg of the course on which she is sailing. She is sailing on leg 2 between marks 1 and 2.
If she sails between the marks at position 6 and heads back to the marina, has she finished? I don't think so following the logic of RRS 31.
Case 148 places an onus on the race committee to track the time from when she sailed between the marks just before position 6 until the skipper gives himself a dope slap realizing he missed a mark and heads back up the course to round. The case states that 30 seconds is too long, does that mean at or before 29 seconds she is good to head back up to round mark 2? And the RC must figure out why she stopped according to the case, how is that accomplished? If RC asks a boat why, they are treading very close to RRS 41. It is my practice on RC when a boat does this is to instruct everyone aboard not to pay attention to the boat, certainly not tell them that they still have legs to sail. In addition, must everyone wait for a boat to sail 2 extra legs? I include the following SI to handle that scenario:
13.x In the interest of starting another race or completing the day’s racing in a timely fashion, the Race Committee may assign a finish position to any boat(s) still racing, provided their position(s) can be determined in a reasonable manner. Such boat(s) will be scored as finished. This changes RRS 28.1, 35, A3, and A4.
Finally, I want to point out that (c) continues to sail the course was deleted from the draft version of the 2020-2024 RRS dated January 2019. I thought good riddance. I was not happy to see it back in the final version published in July 2020.
I do not think that's how this would shake out ITRW.
The RC will have 2 finish times recorded (each time they crossed). I think most RC's will see that and score the 2nd one. If the RC or another boat saw the boat "at rest" the RC might score them NSC or a boat might protest for DNSC.
If the RC NSC's the boat, the boat will likely do a scoreInq and then likely an R4R. In the end, it would end up in the PC's lap to ask those Q's I think.
FWIW, in the original thread, I had suggested something slightly stricter .. and that was that at the moment a boat cleared the line and the influence of the marks, she had to be sailing in a manner consistent with continuation.
It's a subtle and slightly tighter test than 148 described.
But Ang, you skipped over the logic question - do you believe that if the boat touched mark s/f at position 6 that she would break RRS 31?
Had she touched mark S/F, did not continue to sail the course, and was scored NSC, she also does not break RRS 31.
See Case 126
This same logic does not apply to RRS 31
As you can see in bold above Beau, sailing the course is NOT a requirement to finish.
Also, a boat does not have to start either .. so an OCS boat can finish.
If you see it comply with the definition you finish it.
As a race officer I do not always see the boats on all the marks, so I would never be sure when a boat has sailing the course.
If a boat has not sailed the course, other boats can protest them, ot if there is evidence avaliable to the rc such as trackers they can score a boat as nsc.
Please let us finish boats that crossover line.
I've just got to play devil's advocate and ask "Why?"
As far as I can see the RCs only compulsory duty as a boat crosses a finishing line is to record place or/and time. Even the conventional sound signal is just a courtesy isn't it?
I completely agree that the RC cannot know whether a boat has sailed the course, so all they can do is record the data. If a boat crosses the finish line multiple times they need to record it and sort out what happened afterwards.
If one goes back to dictionary english a completed race would consist of starting, sailing the complete course correctly, and finishing. To my mind the rule makers have ended up down a rabbit hole through fixing perceived problems with the definition, but ending up with a logical nonsense.
>A boat shouldn't be able to enter in and out of a state of racing more than once in a single race.
Again, devil's advocate, why not. I can recall an occasion when in a particularly tedious light air race we decided on the second lap that enough was enough and we were going to retire. I imagine we would have kept well clear of other boats as we sailed in, which involved passing the finish line. As we got there it was evident that the RC had shortened, and heck, we've sailed the course, we may as well cross the line and get a finish, and that's what we did. No-one else knew that we had decided to retire, we hadn't broken any rules, we'd sailed the course...
If some ingenious low life conceives of a way to manipulate stopping and restarting racing for advantage then RRS 2 is waiting for them. I take your point about 23.1, but I'm not sure I see a problem in practice.
Also on my dislike of Case 148, the rules, after all, allow us to stop making progress and go for a swim in the middle of the race, although one is still technically racing whilst doing so. There is no rule that requires a boat to be continually sailing to the next mark, so fabricating such a requirement in the case doesn't sit well with me.
Again, devil's advocate, why not."
This is why ...
As soon as a boat is no longer racing, she can't start racing again without a new prep-signal.
However what is a "state of racing"? There's no rule requiring her to sail a proper course, so she can go off sightseeing and come back to the race later. The rules specifically permit her to anchor or the crew go swimming, so there's no rule that she must always be sailing to the next mark. She can, indeed must, cease sailing to the next mark in order to give assistance to persons/boat in danger. In all those circumstances she continues to conform to the definition of racing.
And then, "continuing to sail the course". "Sail the course" is defined by the string rule. If she stops, takes her sails down, whatever surely she may still be complying with the string rule. If she kedges up and puts the kettle on for a cup of tea in the middle of the race she is surely, by the definitions, still racing and still sailing the course. And is there an argument that a boat is never *not* sailing the course? Whatever peculiar evolutions she makes, marks missed, whatever, she can always, or perhaps almost always, go back and correct them, so it can only be known whether a boat sailed the course after she finishes, which means we are back to a circular argument.
Your point about 23.1 and "That what rules apply at any moment should be clear to the boat and boats around her AT THAT VERY MOMENT."
Its certainly desirable that what rules apply should be clear at any moment, but is it achievable? We have to accept that at any time there may be craft on the course to which we must apply IRPCAS. Distinguishing between a boat in a different event sailing on a different course that overlaps ours (RRS) and a boat not racing (IRCPAS) may be difficult. Distinguishing between a boat that has retired mid race and is merely sailing home and one continuing to race may also be difficult. This uncertainty is almost routine.
"If she continued to sail the course at 6, no she did not break RRS 31. She was actually sailing the leg between #1 and #2 therefore the pin was not a mark that bounds a leg she is on."
I agree.
"Had she touched mark S/F, did not continue to sail the course, and was scored NSC, she also does not break RRS 31."
I agree again, she does not break RRS 31. But, did she finish?
That's funny. I actually draw out on paper exactly what you just described when I attempt to teach people how "proper course" is misunderstood :-)
Sure a boat only retires quietly in their mind, doesn't break any rules of propulsion and so forth and then before they cross the finish-line they quietly change their mind ... who's to know? That's not what we are talking about, right?
We are discussing what happens when a boat crosses the finish-line and at some point after realizes they missed a mark and returns to the course to correct it (or crosses and starts the 2nd leg of the course).
Once a boat crosses the FL, it sets in motion the "tests" built into the def:finish. If she does not satisfy one of those tests, she has finished. So we are focused on the actions of a boat in the moments just after she has crossed the FL, cleared the line, and no longer in the influence of the marks, which overlays the tests from def:racing.
Out of the situations above, boats in other overlapping racing circles or boats in our circle who retired or are sailing home all fall within the preamble of Part 2.
"The rules of Part 2 apply between boats that are sailing in or near the racing area and intend to race, are racing, or have been racing."
If she did not satisfy any of def: finish (a), (b) or (c), and crossed the finish-line from the course-side after her starting-signal, then she finished.
From submission 139-18 "Clause (c) in the current definition Finish is deleted. Many readers have never understood that clause. It
was introduced in 2013 to permit the use of multiple-lap courses that require boats to cross the finishing line as they begin to sail each new lap. Without clause (c), under current rules, a boat crossing the finishing line at the end of the first lap has ‘finished’ the race. Under Proposal 4, that boat does not ‘finish’ because she has not yet completely sailed the course."
I understand the desire to have multi-lap races that require boats to pass through a counting or security gate each lap. The location of the start/gate/finish is mid-course between the windward and leeward marks. The gate is a starting line at the beginning of the race, a security/counting gate for intermediate laps and a finish line at the end of the race. And I understand multi-segment race where times are recorded as boats pass through timing gates. I think Sailing Instructions can be used in these course configurations rather than having a clause to finish that a boat finishes unless she continues to sail the course.
The finish line marks the end of a racecourse, not the end of a lap for every sport I can think of except sailboat racing (Automobile Racing (NASCAR, Indy, Le Mans, Formula One, Dirt Track), Speed Skating, Roller Derby, Track and Field, Short and Long Track Cycle, Cross Country Skiing, Horse Racing, Sprint Boat Racing).
Ok ... so we are in a hearing.
FF's
myby the RCBA dropped her sails, turned on her engine and motored to her slip.Conclusions
Protest dismissed. No change in score.
Conclusions
2. When Boat A touched the finish pin, Boat A was actually sailing the leg between Mark 1 and 1A.
I do not believe there is a finish line on the leg on which she was sailing, between Mark 1 and 1A.
Please consider the following:
The course diagram above is in the Sailing Instructions.
Yellow on the first beat, Leg 1, touches Mark G2, does she break RRS 31? No, because Mark G2 does not begin, bound or end the leg of the course she is sailing.
Blue sailing on Leg 3 loses track of where she is on the course and passes between RC and Mark F. Does she finish? Keeping in mind Course 1 is defined as Start, W, G1/G2, W, G2, Finish. No, because Leg 3 has no finish line.
Green, sailing on Leg 4, touches Mark G1, Does she break RRS 31? No, because Mark G1 does not begin, bound or end the leg of the course she is sailing.
Doesn't the same logic that is applied to Yellow and Green apply to Blue?
I guess my point is that (c) continues to sail the course is confusing and that Sailing Instructions could handle events that require passing through a gate multiple times of that have course segments.
Does she finish? YES ... IF none of def: finish (a)/(b)/(c) apply. You didn't mention what Blue does after crossing. THAT determines if she finished or not .. and remains racing or not.
Also, how is the finish-line described in the SI's? If the FL is simply described as a line bounded by the blue flag on the RC boat and mark-F .. then it is what it is at all times. Now, I guess an RC could be clever and not hoist the blue flag on the RC until late in the race. In that case, the FL doesn't exist unless both ends exist.
If the protest committee decides that she did not continue to sail the course, then she finished when her bow crossed the finishing line, if she touches the finishing mark, she has not cleared the finishing mark and so is still racing, and she touches the finishing mark after finishing (RRS 31 last line), so yes, she breaks RRS 31.
Perhaps both sail the course and finish need to be looked at again together. Logically to be counted as a finisher a boat should need to start, complete the course, including any changes made by the RC, and finish.
Perhaps we should have a dialogue, perhaps in another thread, on how we would wish to see this aspect of the rules improved. It does tend to get messy if a thread is partially about interpreting the rules as they currently exist, and partially about criticising the rule set and improving it in the future.
Thanks for finding and posting. - Ang