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My question concerns the final rounding of mark 3P before heading to mark 5. For the purposes of the last sentence of Rule 18.4, which states, "Rule 18.4 does not apply at a gate mark", is 3P considered a gate mark or not?
Argument in favor: we are required to go between marks 3S and 3P before going onto our final reach to mark 5, and any closely-located pair of marks, sailors are required to go between is a gate. (You can't round 3S to port on your way to mark 5; I've tried and it didn't go well.)
Argument against: a gate is a pair of closely-located pair of marks where you can pass close to either one to sail your proper course. But in this case, you'd only pass close to 3P to sail your proper course. So, in this situation, 3S/3P isn't actually a gate in the true sense of the term.
Why I'm asking: hypothetically, an inside starboard tack boat about to round 3P on the way to mark 5 could delay their jibe to the reach, and effectively "bounce" (force into an unplanned jibe) one or more outside port-tack boats who don't know about the last sentence of 18.4 and were expecting starboard to immediately jibe at 3P. This would push the port tacker(s) back and let the starboard boat better ensure their position at the finish. Of course, rules 14a and 14b (avoiding contact) need to be observed. Yes, this is cutthroat, but this is in the context of a national or world championship, where these courses are used.
Note that the RRS defines mark but not gate mark. (Maybe they should?)
This is a hypothetical situation and not related to any protest.
A gate is two marks between which the boat must sail in the direction of the next mark or finish, even if one of the gate marks has in effect to be rounded. If the OA doesn't care about the final passage through 3p/3s, the rounding order listing should state that 3p is the rounding mark at the end of the last downwind leg, rather than 3p/3s.
Nick -- sorry, but that's incorrect. S3 IS still a mark of the course prior to the final reach to 5, since boats need to take 3S to starboard, as indicated by the diagram.
Suggest you read my comment as a response to John Allan’s comment above (which it is) where he says change the course description to remove 3S from the final rounding. Then you may agree.
Ben re: "3S only .. 18.4 would apply as it probably should."
That's what I was thinking. Having 18.4 not apply at the end could lead to shenanigans and/or work against the orderly finish that final config is intended to generate.
Hi Gentlemen, as it is written under the diagram, 3P/3S is a gate and boats have to sail in the gate to sail correctly the course, if not their score will be NSC. It has no effect that usually for the final lap it’s written 3P. In this case, if the race committee considers it’s an error he has to write and publish an amendment to correct it.
Yes, you have to check the exact wording of the si. Here it is a gate. The ilca and cadet courses I am used to just have 3p so it is not a gate. This means no 18.4 and it cannot be used as a gate to finish, something the rc needs to consider
Correct Didier. John and I are simply saying change it to 3P only, as most SIs do, and the problem goes away. This thread should not be about how to cope with things that are wrong. It should be about fixing them.
Re shortening, 3P used on its own, ie not a gate because 3S has been removed from the description, is simply treated as any other mark of the course. Place a RC boat in the correct position, as per RRS32.2, nearby 3P and voila, you have a finishing line.
There could have been a wind shift which caused the Mark 3p to finish leg to be downwind which makes it very hard for the RC . Please note that the Int ILCA class no longer uses mark 5 and the upwind finish. Now they use the WS trap.
At the 2025 Sailing Grand Slam the trapezoid courses (I and O) and the Windward Leeward courses (LG and LR) shown below used only one of the gate marks prior to the finishing leg, mark 3p for I, O and LR and mark 3s for LG, so that rule 18.4 applied. As the other side of the gate did not begin, bound or end the leg it did not have a required side.
ILCA intentionally sometimes has that final turning mark just xP and sometimes the gate of xS/xP. When there are only 1 or 2 classes racing on the course, they will use just xP - so a left-hand turning mark not a gate. When they have 3 or more classes, they use the full gate even for those turning to the finish leg. The reason is because classes on different laps can overlap at the bottom end - some turning upwind and some going to finish - by making it a gate for all, it simplifies the rules for the boats.
Could you tell us about the advantages, disadvantages or considerations for choosing between the LG, LR , and Mark 5 then finish to windward configurations please?
I see no particular reason for LG but lr seems to be of use. If you have a mixed fleet of a regular boat and say a 29er you need the windward leeward. Also you could use this in greater wind when you run one flight perhaps and want to concentrate your safety cover. By finishing behind the committee boat you would in fact free the start line sooner for a second class. If you fi ished the other way the finishes cross the starting fleet. As for mark 5, it seems to be used in two ways, either as I call it flat so the boats reach back and finish across the back of the committee boat, this like the next option removes the need for a finish boat. The deep mark 5 allows a beat back to the committee boat, it is just preferred by some classes, the choice may depend on how easily you see the boat numbers at the finish.
See the annotation 3p/3s in the course list.
Maybe the race committee could replace 3p/3s with 3p.
BTW, if it's a gate a boat could round 3s, then loop the whole gate, leaving 3s an 3p to stbd, then sail to 5.
If she was silly enough.
The written description is not. When written 3s/3p it clearly means both those marks make up the rounding. That is what is meant by a gate.
As written, it's a gate.
Al,
I think Nick and John are saying that if the written description said...
Start - 1- 2 - 3s/3p - 2 - 3p - 5 - Finish
... then that 3s would not be a mark on that rounding to the reach. It would not be a gate. 18.4 would apply as it probably should.
That's what I was thinking. Having 18.4 not apply at the end could lead to shenanigans and/or work against the orderly finish that final config is intended to generate.
Could you tell us about the advantages, disadvantages or considerations for choosing between the LG, LR , and Mark 5 then finish to windward configurations please?
If you have a mixed fleet of a regular boat and say a 29er you need the windward leeward.
Also you could use this in greater wind when you run one flight perhaps and want to concentrate your safety cover.
By finishing behind the committee boat you would in fact free the start line sooner for a second class. If you fi ished the other way the finishes cross the starting fleet.
As for mark 5, it seems to be used in two ways, either as I call it flat so the boats reach back and finish across the back of the committee boat, this like the next option removes the need for a finish boat.
The deep mark 5 allows a beat back to the committee boat, it is just preferred by some classes, the choice may depend on how easily you see the boat numbers at the finish.