Forum: Race Committee & Race Management

"Rules Governing the Duration of Flag D Display Ashore Before Start"

Tiziano Menconi
Nationality: Italy
 "According to Appendix L of the Racing Rules of Sailing, if Flag D is displayed ashore but not all boats go afloat, how long must Flag D remain displayed before the warning signal can be made, and does this duration depend on what is specified in the Sailing Instructions?" 
Created: Mon 12:07

Comments

Format:
P
John Allan
Nationality: Australia
WS SI  Guide (not Appendix L) 5.3 states

Flag D with one sound means ‘Boats [are requested not to][shall not] leave the [harbour][shore] until this signal is made. The warning signal will not be made  before the scheduled time or less than <number> minutes after flag D is displayed.’

That SI does not state for how long flag D must remain displayed.

Seemingly  the race committee may display Flag D with one sound signal then immediately removed the flag.

Alternatively, a protest committee considering redress for a boat that may have unavoidably been unable to hear the sound signal might conclude that the race committee was required to keep the flag displayed for a reasonable time.

Another good reason to use flag G to positively remain ashore while it is displayed.
Created: Mon 12:30
P
Roger Wilson
Hi,

I have used both Flag "D" and Flag "G" on many, many events. 

Which I use depends on the legal responsibilities in the country I am running racing and the port/shore authority rules in the place where the racing is. 

In many countries I have no legal responsibility for the safety of the sailors when they are not racing (and in some, even when they are racing!). In these countries I usually use Flag "G", removing it a good time before racing will start. I use it also when I am required to have boats inspected before launching to ensure they have the right kit aboard. I always get a PC member or Jury to follow the last boat out that launches within a reasonable time of the G flag being removed. Once that judge tells me they are on the race course I can go into sequence (as long as in accordance with the not before time in the SIs)

Where I am legally responsible for boats when they are not racing, I use Flag "D" when the support boats are in place and again I use a judge to make sure that all boats that launch within a reasonable time of the D flag being displayed have reached the starting area before I go into sequence. I remove the D Flag once there is no support boat lying off the launching area to ensure the safety of any boat that launches. The Beachmaster can raise it again if they think it is safe for a boat to launch. Often this boat will have a dedicated coach boat, Sometimes my safety officer vill have to send a boat to escort them out. It is then removed again. 

The things we now have to do to guard ourselves against claims of negligence!

Created: Mon 12:57
P
Angelo Guarino
Forum Moderator
Nationality: United States
Roger ... any idea why these signals are not shown/listed in "Race Signals"?
Created: Mon 13:35
P
Gianluigi Macchia
Nationality: Italy
Hi,
what does flag G mean? I ve never used and seen before, here in Italy we use only delta signal
Thank you
Created: Mon 20:49
P
John Allan
Nationality: Australia
Because it's easier to get stuff into SI/NOR Guide than getting a full Proposal through RRC and Council to amend the RRS?
Created: Mon 13:37
P
Angelo Guarino
Forum Moderator
Nationality: United States
Reply to: 18851 - John Allan
Yea .. but the direction for the use of these flags is in an RRS Appx ... not something thought up on the fly by an OA/RC.  IMO, for that reason, I think these flags should be shown in "Race Signals" for visual reference. 

PS: or as an appendix "Appx ?: Auxiliary Race Signals"

"The following Race Signals are referenced in the Appendices and are only enforce when stated so in a race document governing the event" .. or something.  
Created: Mon 13:42
P
John Allan
Nationality: Australia
No the SI/NOR Guides are no longer Appendices in this Quad.
Created: Mon 13:44
P
Angelo Guarino
Forum Moderator
Nationality: United States
Reply to: 18853 - John Allan
No longer Appendix LG?
Created: Mon 16:51
P
John Allan
Nationality: Australia
Reply to: 18853 - John Allan
Angelo,

No, not appendices any more.

See Mark's response.

NOR/SI Guides are at WS>Inside WS>Race Officials>IJ>IJ Resource Centre>Notice of Race and Sailing Instructions Guides
or
WS>Race Officials>IRO>IRO Resource Centre>IRO Resource Library>Notice of Race and Sailing Instructions Guides
or
WS>Race Officials>Race Officials Resource Centre>Notice of Race and Sailing Instructions Guides.

AIUI, a WS document identified as an Appendix, for example Appendix UF, is treated as an Appendix to the RRS and takes precedence over any conflicting rules in Parts 1 to 7 and the Definitions of the RRS (RRS Introduction, Appendices).  So, if it is in an 'Appendix' it can change a RRS that NOR/SI otherwise can't change under RRS 86.1
Created: Mon 22:35
P
Michael Butterfield
I think the D flag should be displayed, till most boats launch or to the first start, this makes it useful.

Created: Mon 15:51
P
Michael Butterfield
I believed the same process was required to change the si guide as changing a rule.
Created: Mon 15:51
Mark Townsend
Nationality: United Kingdom
Angelo... Yea .. but the direction for the use of these flags is in an RRS Appx ... not something thought up on the fly by an OA/RC.  IMO, for that reason, I think these flags should be shown in "Race Signals" for visual reference. 

In the 2021–2024 edition of the Racing Rules of Sailing, Appendices K and L, which contained the Notice of Race and Sailing Instructions guides, were removed. A note was added to the rulebook indicating where those guides could be accessed. In the 2025–2028 edition there is no mention of either appendix or their location.

It has been my observation that the RRC consider moving rules from the race documents (notice of race and sailing instructions) to the Racing Rules of Sailing when a high percentage of race documents issued by events in different countries contain the same NoR or SI rule.

A recent example would rule 62.2(a) in the 2021-2024 RRS. The Sailing Instruction Guide used to include a sailing instruction limiting the request for reopening time limit to 30 minutes, which most clubs included in their sailing instructions.
On the last scheduled day of racing a request for redress based on a protest committee decision shall be delivered no later than 30 minutes after the decision was posted. This changes RRS 62.2.
This became rule 62.2(a) in the 2021-2024 RRS.
(a) However, on the last scheduled day of racing a request for redress based on a protest committee decision shall be delivered no later than 30 minutes after the decision was posted.

Sailing instructions that include the use of flag D by comparison are relatively limited.
Created: Mon 16:35
John Christman
Nationality: United States
I suspect that overall only a small percentage of events use the D and G flags.  If we include too many of these flags in Race Signals, we will run out of flags that can be used as PHRF/ORR/ORC class flags or for other purposes.
Created: Mon 17:52
P
Angelo Guarino
Forum Moderator
Nationality: United States
John C ... maybe where I'm heading is that the Appx LG/SI Guide/whatever-its-called maybe could have an SI which accompanies the SI's being discussed where the G and D flags are shown graphically & described (ala  Race Signals).   It could be in the form of an addition to the Race Signals. 

That way it's only being shown/done when used.

I like the idea that racers can quickly see what these flags look like and mean by the race docs and RRS.  
Created: Mon 18:14
Tiziano Menconi
Nationality: Italy
 "I have noticed that in regattas with a large number of boats, it is used in the Sailing Instructions. I recall having seen it used during an Optimist European Championship, if I’m not mistaken. Some classes even require its use." 
Created: Yesterday 08:50
P
John Leech
We use Flag D in Ireland for all large Optimist events, it is no longer displayed when all boats have left the club, our Beach Master informs us by VHF radio that all boats have departed and are enroute out to the start area, first fleet to start is released first, then the second fleet after them. 
Created: Yesterday 11:11
Jerry Thompson
Nationality: United States
The following is included in the USODA's SI Template:
"6.3 [SP][DP] Flag D with one sound indicates Shore Launch. Boats shall not leave their assigned space until 
this signal is made. The warning signal will not be made before the scheduled time or less than 60
minutes after flag D is displayed."
Created: Yesterday 11:17
P
Angelo Guarino
Forum Moderator
Nationality: United States
Jerry does the template show the flag graphically?
Created: Yesterday 12:22
Jerry Thompson
Nationality: United States
No, the SI does note include a picture of the D flag, not a bad idea though.
Created: Yesterday 12:37
Tiziano Menconi
Nationality: Italy
If a skipper meeting is held, u can show them the flag.
Created: Yesterday 14:19
P
John Allan
Nationality: Australia
Gianluigi Macchia asked what does flag G mean? I ve never used and seen before, here in Italy we use only delta signal

Flag G can be used with an appropriate SI such as:

When flag G is displayed boats shall not leave the shore.

This contrasts with the use of Flag D, meaning

When flag D is is displayed boats may leave the shore [and shall not leave the shore when flag D is not displayed).

If they want to use flag G, the race committee might have to get up early in the morning to display it, or else the race committe might choose not to concern itself with a boat that wants to go out for an early training session.
Created: Yesterday 23:30
John Christman
Nationality: United States
@Ang - I agree that having an image of the flags in the documents is a good idea as many sailors know the basic ones but not the all.  It helps them create a direct association in their minds rather than searching for a flag chart.

I have only seen the D flag used at larger Opti events.  It is my understanding that it is serving a dual purpose, the class wants to have some limit on the kid's overall time on the water and the organizers want to know when people are going out to help them keep track for safety reasons.
Created: Today 01:36
[You must be signed in to add a comment]
Cookies help us deliver our services. By using our services, you agree to our use of cookies. Learn more