Forum: The Racing Rules of Sailing

Redress for UFD Penalty Caused by Contact Before the Start: Protest Committee Responsibilities and Applicable Rules

Tiziano Menconi
Nationality: Italy
50
Tips
Question:

In light of the facts described below, where boat Y was pushed over the starting line before the starting signal by boat X, which failed to keep clear from astern, how should the Protest Committee act in response to a request for redress submitted by Y?

Which Racing Rules of Sailing (RRS) and Cases or Interpretations from the World Sailing Case Book could be cited to support a possible decision by the Protest Committee to cancel the UFD penalty and reinstate Y in the race results?


Facts Found:

10 seconds before the starting signal (Uniform flag displayed), boat Y, on starboard tack, was stationary, positioned near to leeward of the starting line and about few meters to port of the race committee boat.
Boat X, also on starboard tack and clear astern of Y, was approaching from behind. X failed to keep clear and made contact with Y’s stern, causing Y to be pushed over the starting line before the starting signal.

The Race Committee identified Y as being over the line during the period before the start and scored her UFD under Rule 30.3.

Immediately after the contact, Y maneuvered back to the pre-start side of the line and successfully started from the correct side.

Created: 25-Sep-17 18:16

Comments

Format:
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Christopher Walmsley
Nationality: Canada
61.4 b) 1-5 don't provide for redress in this situation.  (Unless maybe X intentionally forced Y over)
Created: 25-Sep-17 18:41
John Ball
Nationality: Canada
The correct outcome for this is that Y should be reinstated in the race in her recorded finish position. She was forced to break the U flag start by the actions of a boat that broke R 12. She returned and started correctly.

The PC should start the Redress hearing, and then protest X and hold that hearing, and then if they DSQ X, there are grounds to exonerate Y and require the RC to change the scoring. 

Here are the applicable rules.
43.1 (a) When as a consequence of breaking a rule a boat has compelled another boat to break a rule, the other boat is
exonerated for her breach.

43.2 A boat exonerated for breaking a rule need not take a penalty and shall not be penalized for breaking that rule.

61.4(b)
(5) an action of another boat, or a crew member or support person of that boat, that resulted in a penalty under rule 2
or a penalty or warning under rule 69.

90.3 
(d) The race committee shall implement scoring changes directed by the protest committee or national authority as a result of decisions made in accordance with the rules.

John
Created: 25-Sep-17 19:02
Werner Esswein
RRS 43.1 (a) 
Created: 25-Sep-17 19:03
Vince Harris
Nationality: United States
Since Y broke 30.3 because she was compelled to by X, she would be exonerated under 43.1(a).  She then re-started properly, so she should be scored in her actual finishing position.  I believe that she has a case to be made for redress under 61.4 (b) (1).

A successful protest of boat X, or their acceptance of a penalty for the incident, would help her case, for sure.

World Sailing Case 140, particularly Question 1, provides some good insight into this situation.




Created: 25-Sep-17 19:13
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Christopher Walmsley
Nationality: Canada
Case 140 is good and is clear that Y should be both exonerated for 30.3 and reinstated.   But 61.4 doesn't provide a clear path to make that change as "Redress", but as John noted, 90.3, would allow the PC to determine exoneration was appropriate, and could direct a scoring change.
Created: 25-Sep-17 19:28
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Angelo Guarino
Forum Moderator
Nationality: United States
Yes, under 43.1(a) she was compelled to break a rule by another boat breaking a rule.  She is exonerated.  However, the RC acted properly in scoring her UFD.   That score stands.

Now .. we have a request for redress .. however .. the claim of the boat against the RC isn't going anywhere as the RC did not make an error or omission.

In the redress hearing the PC might find grounds to make a report under RRS 69, but based on an R4R hearing, the PC can't protest X for breaking RRS 2 or any other rule. The PC is specifically barred from protesting another boat from information learned in an R4R under 60.4(b)(1).  Such a protest is invalid.   

Information for RRS 69 can come from anywhere at any time.

Boat Y needs a valid protest against Boat X for a PC to find Y is exonerated in a protest hearing ..  or an RRS 69 finding for the change to happen in redress.  

Without a valid protest against X by Boat Y or by the RC that saw the incident, or a warning/penalty against Y under RRS 69, I think Y is out of luck.
Created: 25-Sep-17 19:38
Jerry Thompson
Nationality: United States
"Boat Y needs a valid protest against Boat X for a PC to find Y is exonerated in a protest hearing"

Interesting, I believe the Rule, 43.1(a), (b) or (c) exonerates the boat, not the PC. For example, I break Rule 10 against you and as a result you break Rule 11 against a boat to your windward.  The windward boat may protest you, or not. You are not required to protest me for breaking Rule 10 to be exonerated by 43.1(a). You are immediately exonerated on the water for breaking Rule 11 with the windward boat by Rule 43.1(a).

Back to the original post:

I agree the request for redress against the RC will not hold as the RC made no error or omission scoring Y UFD.

If Y protests X, instead of asking for redress alone, for breaking Rule 12 and the PC finds that indeed X broke Rule 12 pushing Y over the line, I don't believe redress can be given unless there was damage or injury, 61.4(b)(2) and Case 110.

Seems like Y is in a tight spot.
Created: 25-Sep-17 20:25
Michael Balay
Nationality: United States
Jerry,

Wasn't there a case almost exactly like this at this year's US Opti Team Trials? The difference being it was a 30.4 start with a General Recall, and Boat Y did not restart because she had been Black Flagged.
Created: 25-Sep-18 14:10
Jim Champ
Nationality: United Kingdom
What happens if X took a penalty? Is Y still obliged to protest in order to lose the UFD? 
Created: 25-Sep-17 20:22
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Angelo Guarino
Forum Moderator
Nationality: United States
Reply to: 18967 - Jim Champ
Jim .. interesting question. Let me turn it around to you.

Who is going to change the score?
Based on what rule?

Answer:  Boat X reports to the PC that they took a penalty for breaking RRS 12. The PC can now protest Boat X, because it's a report from Boat X representative. RRS 60.4(b)(3). 

Further question is whether there is a rule that allows the PC to take the penalty report from X and turn that into a direction to the RC to change Y's score without a hearing?
Created: 25-Sep-17 22:18
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John Allan
Nationality: Australia
Reply to: 18967 - Jim Champ
Ang,  Boat X reports to the PC that they took a penalty for breaking RRS 12. The PC can now protest Boat X, because it's a report from Boat X representative. RRS 60.4(b) 

How or why is Boat X going to make that report to the protest committee?

I agree that IF X does make that report the protest committee can protest her and get the Case 140 show back on the rails.
Created: 25-Sep-17 23:09
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Angelo Guarino
Forum Moderator
Nationality: United States
Reply to: 18967 - Jim Champ
John re: "How or why is Boat X going to make that report to the protest committee?"

Well .. one reason could be that they were required by the SI's to report penalty turns.  I just did an Opti Regional Champs that had that SI. 

Another is Boat Y asks Boat X to tell the PC that they took a penalty. 

Is there a rule that that forbids the PC from just simply asking, "Did you take a penalty turn at the start and why?"
Created: 25-Sep-17 23:38
Dennis Dyer
Reply to: 18967 - Jim Champ
If boat X took a penalty turn, she acknowledged a rule violation, ipso facto.  The 360 does not eliminate consequences of the infraction which negatively impacted boat Y.  Boat Y can request redress under 61.4b5, and reinstatement should be granted as exoneration by 43.1a.

Created: 25-Sep-18 18:29
Tim O'Connor
To float a further hypothetical: assume the same first two paragraphs of facts found, but on a black flag. 

There is a recall on that start. Y is, on the facts found, over and is, correctly from the point of view of the RC, BFD. Y's number is displayed, and Y leaves the race area as required. 

X starts the restart, while Y, prejudiced by the fault of X, is disqualified from the race without recourse against the RC. That's clearly an entirely unjust outcome, that Y is prejudiced by another boat breaking the rules, but is there a route to a result that cures that outcome?
Created: 25-Sep-17 22:09
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John Allan
Nationality: Australia
Reply to: 18971 - Tim O'Connor
Tim O'Connor Email: timoconnorbl@gmail.com WIND Actions To float a further hypothetical: assume the same first two paragraphs of facts found, but on a black flag.  There is a recall on that start. Y is, on the facts found, over and is, correctly fr...
Tim O'Connor said

To float a further hypothetical: assume the same first two paragraphs of facts found, but on a black flag. 

There is a recall on that start. Y is, on the facts found, over and is, correctly from the point of view of the RC, BFD. Y's number is displayed, and Y leaves the race area as required. 

No rule requires Y to leave the racing area (unless it is in the SI).  RRS 30.4 only requires that she not start in the restarted race.

X starts the restart, while Y, prejudiced by the fault of X, is disqualified from the race without recourse against the RC. That's clearly an entirely unjust outcome, that Y is prejudiced by another boat breaking the rules, but is there a route to a result that cures that outcome?

 The bar for redress is high.  There are many incidents where a boat is 'prejudiced' by another boat breaking the rules, typically, any Part 2 incident, where no redress is available.

 Case 96 addresses the BFD restart scenario.

Once it is established that Y was compelled to break RRS 30.4 in the first start she is exonerated for breaking RRS 30.4, but because the first start is General Recalled, Y was never able to return to the pre-start side and overcome her OCS and sail the course and obtain a finishing place as described in  Case 140so she can't be reinstated into that place by way of redress.

Case 96 Answer 1 gives us an answer:  she should be given redress based on her results in other races.
Created: 25-Sep-18 00:12
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Angelo Guarino
Forum Moderator
Nationality: United States
Jerry .. yes boats are exonerated.  So if you break a rule and you are exonerated you don't have to take a penalty. 

However, if you get protested you have to prove your exoneration to the extent that a PC can find you were in fact exonerated ... otherwise you are now not exonerated (and never were exonerated actually). 

The RC has properly scored Y.  If she wants her exoneration to be recognized she needs the PC find she is exonerated and instruct the RC to change the score ... or find X broke RRS 69 and warn/penalize her. 
Created: 25-Sep-17 22:14
Jerry Thompson
Nationality: United States
I was incorrect. Case 140, Question 1, second part of answer 1 makes it clear that if she starts properly, which she did, her UFD is washed away.
Created: 25-Sep-17 23:07
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Angelo Guarino
Forum Moderator
Nationality: United States
Jerry ... Case 140, Facts for Question 1 .. 

"A lodges a valid protest against B. The protest committee disqualifies B for breaking a rule of Part 2."
Created: 25-Sep-17 23:33
Jerry Thompson
Nationality: United States
Yup, got it. 

While I always encourage sailors who feel that have been exonerated by rule 43.1 to protest the boat breaking a rule, this is the instance that I have been made aware that a valid protest is required for exoneration. I wonder if there are more?
Created: 25-Sep-17 23:39
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John Allan
Nationality: Australia
I've said before, and I remain strongly of the opinion that a protest committee should not state a conclusion that boat has broken a rule unless that boat is a party to a valid protest hearing.
  • concluding that a boat has broken a rule, when she has never been told of the allegation against her and given the opportunity to defend herself is a breach of natural justice (due process for the Americans), and
  • to reach that conclusion without hearing evidence from the boat itself is fundamentally unsafe:  all the relevant evidence has not been heard and taken into account.

You can't morph a request for redress into a protest.  That's exactly what RRS 60.4(b)(1) is there to prevent.

Consider also the insertion of ' took an appropriate penalty or was penalized' into what is now the RRS 61.4((b)(2) injury or physical damage grounds for redress in the 2021 RRS and the removal of Case 142.

If X broke RRS 12 and 14 and compelled Y to break RRS 30.3, then Y is exonerated for breaking RRS 30.3 by RRS 43.1(a)
BUT
Neither the race committee nor the protest committee 'knows' this until the protest committee properly states, at least the breach of RRS 12 and 14 as a conclusion in a proper [protest] hearing.
OK, maybe if the event is using a Penalty Acceptance Form that identifies the incident, the race committee can take a short cut to reinstating Y.

If the race committee, somehow or other had in it's own records or observations that Y had broken a rule and compelled Y to break RRS 30.3, then RRS 90.3 would require the race committee to correct Y's score, but how could the race committee come by such [reliable] information?

As Ang has indicated, the RRS can overcome the impasse by calling a RRS 69 hearing against Y.
Created: 25-Sep-17 23:39
Giff Constable
Nationality: United States
Reply to: 18979 - John Allan
John, I completely agree that if this a request for redress the jury cannot turn this into a protest hearing unless they learn of injury or serious damage given 60.4. And I very much appreciate the stance that you should not conclude that a boat broke a rule if you haven't heard from that boat.

But let's say this is indeed a valid request for redress by Y, not a protest. The jury calls X in as a witness. X cannot be penalized through this hearing (60.5(b)). Let's say X freely admits that they hit Y's stern and pushed them over the line causing the UFD.

It seems reasonable to me at this point for the jury to conclude that Y was compelled to break 30.3 because of X and thus the jury can affirm that they are exonerated under 43.1. As others have noted, this is backed up by Case 140.

With that conclusion, while RC did what was proper at the time, they unknowingly broke 43.2 "shall not be penalized".

RC breaking 43.2 would qualify to me as "score made significantly worse through no fault of her own" by an improper action of race committee, so 61.4(b)(1).

Thus it seems reasonable to grant redress to Y without this being a protest hearing.

I don't think Y would need to protest X to satisfy the "no fault of her own" language. She is exonerated of 30.3. RC marked her UFD. To me, those are the relevant elements and both are through no fault of her own. Granted it would take the jury affirming Y's exoneration for RC to correct the UFD, but I feel like requiring this to be a protest hearing is extending "no fault of her own" too far, even if it indeed would be wiser for Y to protest X.
Created: 25-Sep-18 15:10
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Angelo Guarino
Forum Moderator
Nationality: United States
Reply to: 18979 - John Allan
As others have noted, this is backed up by Case 140.
Cliff re: "As others have noted, this is backed up by Case 140."

Each time someone uses Case 140 here as a reason this can be in the R4R without a protest hearing, IMO they are making a repetitive error in Case 140's application.

From Case 140 .. (emphasis added)

Facts for Question 1
"[...]  A lodges a valid protest against B. The protest committee disqualifies B for breaking a rule of Part 2. The committee finds that B, as a consequence of breaking a rule, has compelled A to break rule 30.3 or 30.4."

Facts for Question 2
"[...] The facts are the same as for Question 1, ...
Question 2
"[..] If the protest committee decides that B broke a Part 2 rule and, when she did so, compelled A to break rule 30.4, ..."

Facts for Question 3
"The facts are the same as for Question 2 ..."
Question 3
"If the protest committee decides that B broke a Part 2 rule and, when she did so, compelled A to break rule 30.4, .."

Each scenario of Case 140 involves a protest hearing ....  and in either the facts for the scenario or the question itself, the PC .. in the protest hearing ..  " ..finds that B, as a consequence of breaking a rule, has compelled A to break rule 30.3 or 30.4."
Created: 25-Sep-18 19:32
Jim Champ
Nationality: United Kingdom
Reply to: 18979 - John Allan
Case 140 certainly involves a hearing. There's a subtlety in the wording of the rule though. In every mention the phrase is "is exonerated". Not shall be, is. So it's not a question of being exonerated at a hearing. The exoneration is automatic and immediate. 

On the other hand and at least as compelling and important a factor, all exonerations are dependant on conditions. The conditions must surely be validated. Even excluding dishonesty competitors may be mistaken. 

So on the one hand we have 43.2 which says, unequivocally, a boat exonerated shall not be penalised. To penalise a boat which is exonerated is, I submit, an improper action. 

On the other hand there appears to be no way in which the exoneration may be validated in a situation where a boat is penalised without a hearing.  It seems something of an impasse. 

As discussed the pragmatic remedy is to always protest if you believe you are entitled to exoneration. But if a boat has already taken a penalty for an incident it seems excessive to protest. 
Created: 25-Sep-18 20:43
Giff Constable
Nationality: United States
Reply to: 18979 - John Allan
Replying to Angelo, I don't follow the logic in the message about Case 140. Just because 140's examples cover valid protest hearings does not mean that it can't be used to help one's thinking in a redress hearing like this one.

I think this section in 140: "Had A returned to the pre-start side of the starting line, started, sailed the course and finished, A would have been exonerated by rule 43.1(a) for breaking rule 30.3 or 30.4; and, had she done so, the race committee would have been required to score her in her finishing place, and rescore the race accordingly." is very useful in deciding how to examine the situation posed by the original poster.

Related thoughts:
You don't have to find a boat guilty in valid protest hearing in order to conclude that they broke a rule. A boat isn't exonerated because the jury finds another boat guilty. You can end up in a situation where you decide a boat broke a rule but that you can't penalize them given RRS 60.5 constraints.

Case 51 reminds us: "A protest committee must find that boats were exonerated at the time of the incident when, as a result of another boat’s breach of a rule, they were compelled to break a rule."

so I don't see 140 as a non-useful input. Perhaps I misunderstood your point.

p.s. I don't know what R4R stands for. Rules for Racing?

Created: 25-Sep-18 20:45
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John Allan
Nationality: Australia
Ang  Further question is whether there is a rule that allows the PC to take the penalty report from X and turn that into a direction to the RC to change Y's score without a hearing? 

No, the only way a protest committee can direct a race committee to implement scoring changes is 'as a result of [a] decision ... made in accordance with the rules., (RRS 90.3(d)), so that would have to be a decision made in a protest committee hearing.

As I said previously, if there was a written report from X saying she took a penalty and sufficiently identifying the incident, the protest committee could pass that on with some advice to the race committee.
Created: 25-Sep-17 23:48
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Angelo Guarino
Forum Moderator
Nationality: United States
Reply to: 18981 - John Allan
John re: "the protest committee could pass that on with some advice to the race committee."

What rule allows the RC to override the "shall" in 30.3?  It's not a "correction" from their own records, right? (as we've stated when talking about the R4R, the RC did not make an error applying the UDF score). 
Created: 25-Sep-18 01:38
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John Allan
Nationality: Australia
50
Tips
Ang, Good get.  Unlike RRS 60.5(c)(1), RRS 30.4 doesn't have an 'unless she is exonerated' exception.  So, for the race committee there is no error to correct, and it will need a direction from the protest committee.

Also, under RRS 43.1(a) someone has to make a judgement about 'compelled':  it's not sufficient that X broke RRS 12 and 14, which a Penalty Taken for might show, but certainly will not contain enough information about compulsion.
Created: 25-Sep-18 03:42
Jim Champ
Nationality: United Kingdom
The RC failed to observe  that Y was pushed over the line, and thus exonerated. Was that an ommission that brings 61.4.b1 into play? In practice the RC cannot be expected to notice all such events, but isn't that beside the point?

I'm a bit unhappy that by this form of logic chopping X is found to have broken a rule without necessarily being heard. There are all sorts of messy implications in that as others have noted. 
Created: 25-Sep-18 07:46
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John Allan
Nationality: Australia
Jim, the protest committee has a duty to observe whether any boats are in the triangle.

The race committee has no duty to observe whether boats are breaking any Part 2 rule, or any other rule for that matter.

It is not an improper omission for the race committee not to observe a boat breaking a rule, much less to evaluate whether that breach compelled some other breach.
Created: 25-Sep-18 09:25
Jim Champ
Nationality: United Kingdom
Reply to: 18989 - John Allan
I see all that and agree with it. But we have an end result that the RC has penalised a boat for an incident in which she did not in fact break a rule. 

It's an artifact of penalising without a hearing. If there had been a hearing then the full story would have come out. I suppose the lesson is to always protest for a start line incident. One may also wonder if Y was aware she broke the line. 
Created: 25-Sep-18 10:36
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Angelo Guarino
Forum Moderator
Nationality: United States
Reply to: 18989 - John Allan
Jim re: "I suppose the lesson is to always protest for a start line incident."

There are many lessons in this thread. Thank you to Tiziano for teeing this one up for the forum!

Anywhere on the race course, I think a boat should always protest the compelling boat when they are banking on RRS 43.1(a) exoneration for themselves. Otherwise, they risk a 3rd boat protesting them and being out of luck.  A PC "may" decide to protest the compelling boat .. or not (and many judges take a harder line than others about crossing the line of protesting a boat when it was possible for an effected boat to do so themselves).

Here it's the RC that is the 3rd party ... not a 3rd boat that is putting Y in jeopardy .. but it's sort'a the same pickle. 
Created: 25-Sep-18 11:05
Tiziano Menconi
Nationality: Italy
I think that everything is in the hands of the RC if he saw the boat return before the start, as PC I would consult with them especially if it is a race with many racers.
Created: 25-Sep-18 09:28
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John Allan
Nationality: Australia
Jim, inasmuch as it is possible for a boat to break RRS 30.3 or 30.4 (and Case 240 says it is possible because it says the boat is exonerated for breaking the rule) the boat over early absolutely does break the rule.  Being exonerated, while having the same effect under the RRS isn't the same as not breaking the rule in the first place.

Yes, if a boat wants to maximise her chances of redress she should protest.
Created: 25-Sep-18 10:45
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John Allan
Nationality: Australia
NEW ISSUE ABOUT ENTITLEMENT TO REDRESS THAT WE HAVEN'T CONSIDERED BEFORE

In accordance with RRS 61.4(b) a boat is only entitled to redress if her score or place has been worsened through no fault of her own.

While no rule requires a boat to protest another, in this case Y's failure to protest X is the cause of the race committee and the protest committee not being officially aware that X broke a rule and Y is exonerated for her UFD.

There's a legal principle of equity that says 'equity helps those that help themselves'.  Y hasn't been diligent in taking care of her own interests.  I'd be prepared to conclude that Y was at fault in not protesting X and was therefore not entitled to redress. 
Created: 25-Sep-18 12:37
Jerry Thompson
Nationality: United States
Michael asked "Wasn't there a case almost exactly like this at this year's US Opti Team Trials? The difference being it was a 30.4 start with a General Recall, and Boat Y did not restart because she had been Black Flagged."

Yes, and she was hit and damaged by an undetermined boat.
Created: 25-Sep-18 20:09
Jerry Thompson
Nationality: United States
Boat Y is exonerated by Rule 43.1(a) at the time of the incident, I think most agree.

Boat Y simply informing the RC that they are exonerated, doesn't have any weight with the RC in my opinion.

Boat Y must protest Boat X to involve an authority able to direct the RC to change her score if required.






Created: 25-Sep-18 20:53
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Angelo Guarino
Forum Moderator
Nationality: United States
Reply to: 19012 - Jerry Thompson
the race committee would have been required to score her in her finishing place, and rescore the race accordingly.
Cliff re: "... the race committee would have been required to score her in her finishing place, and rescore the race accordingly."

Who is requiring the RC?  It's the PC through their direction.  

Just before your quote .. 

"The protest committee may exonerate A under rule 43.1(a) for her breach of rule 30.3 or 30.4, and if so, the race committee shall score her DNS under rule A5.1." .. .then the "had she .. " statement and then the PC would have required the RC (directed) to change her score.

.. and this is after the establishment of a protest hearing.

Each statement builds upon and depend upon the prior one.
Created: 25-Sep-18 21:00
Mark Townsend
Nationality: United States
Rule 61.4(b) states that a boat is entitled to redress if its score or place in a race or series has been made, or may be made, significantly worse through no fault of its own by one of five circumstances.

(1) an improper action or improper omission of a committee or the organizing authority, but not by a protest
committee decision when the boat was a party to the hearing,
  • The race committee acted properly. Boat Y violated rule 30.3, and the rule's final provision mandates disqualification: "If a boat breaks this rule and is identified, she shall be disqualified without a hearing, but not if the race is restarted or resailed."

(2) injury or physical damage because of the action of a boat that was breaking a rule of Part 2 and took an appropriate penalty or was penalized,
  • Although boat X broke a rule of Part2 and took and an appropriate penalty, there was no injury or physical damage.

(3) injury or physical damage because of the action of a vessel not racing that was required to keep clear or is determined to be at fault under the IRPCAS or a government right-of-way rule,
  • does not apply.

(4) giving help (except to herself or her crew) in compliance with rule 1.1, or
  • does not apply.

(5) an action of another boat, or a crew member or support person of that boat, that resulted in a penalty under rule 2 or a penalty or warning under rule 69.
  • does not apply.

As none of the five conditions apply she is not entitled to redress. 

In World Sailing Case 140 the protest committee found that as a consequence of the other boat breaking a rule, she was compelled to break rule 30.3 and was exonerated by rule 43.1(a) for that breach, The boat that was fouled was not given redress. She was exonerated for breaking rule 30.3 and not scored UFD, but because the boat failed to start correctly, she was scored OCS.

In this case boat Y should have filed a protest. However, rule 63.2(c) allows the protest committee to change the type of case from a request for redress to a protest if the validity requirements are met.
Created: 25-Sep-18 21:29
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Angelo Guarino
Forum Moderator
Nationality: United States
Mark re: "However, rule 63.2(c) allows the protest committee to change the type of case from a request for redress to a protest if the validity requirements are met."

I'm glad you said and not me!!!! :-)

For those who don't know .. some of us had a long discussion about how that could be possible with the now protestor meeting his notification requirement of his intent to protest (for validity). 
Created: 25-Sep-18 22:01
Giff Constable
Nationality: United States
Here's a different perspective, please poke holes:

In scoring Y UFD, the race committee acted properly at the time.

However, the RRS supports the relevance and use of significant new evidence. I see 63.7(a)(3) as a foundation for this even though I am not talking about a re-opening.

To narrow this scenario and take a protest off the table, let's say that X took a penalty on the water and Y does not file a protest. We can even say that the scores aren't posted until the next morning. Y sees the UFD within minutes of posting and immediately files a request for redress.

In the redress hearing, both X and Y testify that the UFD was caused by the contact. 

The jury realizes that Y is exonerated. (exoneration is not defined by a valid protest)

Thus the jury realizes with this significant new evidence that RC broke 43.2. 

The jury concludes that Y's score was made significantly worse through no fault of her own, and that RC did make an improper action by breaking 43.2. Thus redress can be granted under 61.4(b)(1).

I think Case 140 provides useful guidance here to the jury for their next move, even if this is a redress hearing and not a valid protest hearing. If Y did not restart, then in granting redress, the only appropriate score change would be for RC to turn the UFD to OCS. If Y did restart and sail the race, then RC would be directed to score them in their finishing place and rescore the race accordingly.
Created: 25-Sep-19 15:43
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John Allan
Nationality: Australia
Giff, welcome to the forum.  You said But let's say this is indeed a valid request for redress by Y, not a protest. The jury calls X in as a witness. X cannot be penalized through this hearing (60.5(b)). Let's say X freely admits that they hit Y's stern and pushed them over the line causing the UFD.

As far as the request for redress goes, given the 'free admission', I'd be happy to give redress.

Hoooever, and this is an unusual take from me, I think X is putting herself in real RRS 2 hot water.

X says flatly that she knows she broke RRS 12 and 14.

Its a fundamental principle of sportsmanship that when a boat breaks a rule and is not exonerated, she will promptly take an appropriate penalty or action, which may be to retire (RRS Basic Principles).  RRS 2 requires boats to compete in compliance with recognized principles of sportsmanship and fair play.

IMHO, X is breaking RRS 2.  The protest committee should remind X about RRS 2 and invite her to retire, and if she does not do so, should protest her for breaking RRS 2.

You can't have a boat coming into a hearing and saying 'I broke a rule, but ha ha ha, you can't touch me'.
Created: 25-Sep-18 22:07
Tim O'Connor
Reply to: 19017 - John Allan
While I absolutely agree with you, is X a compellable witness? Competent, absolutely, but compellable? 

What’s to stop X, in essence, going when asked to be a witness, “Nice, nope, bye”, pocketing the better result and walking away whistling like one of Bob Massingberd’s clients in Blackadder?
Created: 25-Sep-19 08:31
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John Allan
Nationality: Australia
Dennis Dyer said
If boat X took a penalty turn, she acknowledged a rule violation, ipso facto.

I don't think that is correct.

RRS 44.1 provides that(emphasis added)

A boat may take a Two-Turns Penalty when she may have broken one or more rule

A boat may take an 'insurance' penalty when she has not actually broken a rule.

I also note US Sailing Prescription to RRS 65.5

 A boat that retires from a race or accepts a penalty does not, by that action alone, admit liability for monetary damages.

I would argue by extension from that prescription simply that a boat by taking a penalty does not admit that she has broken a rule.
Created: 25-Sep-18 22:29
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John Allan
Nationality: Australia
No witnesses or potential witnesses to hearings under the RRS are compellable in any way.

There are no powers in the RRS to either:
  • direct (compel) a person to attend a hearing of a protest committee, or
  • once in a hearing, to compel a witness to answer any question.

So the question of self-incrimination never arises.

But Giff's scenario was that X freely put her head in the noose.
Created: 25-Sep-19 08:44
Tim O'Connor
Reply to: 19020 - John Allan
Again, agreed. 

Partly what I’m worried about is that there appears here to be a mechanism for someone unscrupulous but intelligent to take out a competitor on a black flag, possibly even initiate a bunch going over to engineer a recall on a black flag start where they’re buried, make it hellishly difficult for those affected not to be penalised and to be able to roll the dice on getting away untouched. 

In a sport where ILCA sailors exist, that gives me pause as to whether this might need to be considered further. 
Created: 25-Sep-19 09:16
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John Allan
Nationality: Australia
Tim, it's absolutely proper and no breach of sportsmanship to drive a competitor over the line under a Black Flag or any other start, provided that in doing so you don't break any other rules.

But if you get that close to the line under B/UFD, then you're taking some risks yourself.

If a boat, trying to drive her competitor over the line breaks a rule its up to the other boat to protest.  That's what she is expected to do by Basic Principles Sportsmanship and the Rules.

If you've got a reasonably warm fleet and want to do a Black Flag, you might be wise to make sure that you have an alert pin boat crew, and remember you've got all race long to look at the video to identify BFD.
Created: 25-Sep-19 09:33
Tim O'Connor
Reply to: 19022 - John Allan
“Provided that in doing so you don’t break any other rules” - I did specifically mention ILCA sailors, John…
Created: 25-Sep-19 10:08
Jim Champ
Nationality: United Kingdom
On the one hand it's manifestly unjust for a competitor who was exonerated to be scored BFD or UFD. But on the other hand if one allowed any kind of hearing for a claim of exoneration it's inevitable that almost every BFD/UFD would claim exoneration on the sketchiest of grounds, and the whole point of having the penalty without a hearing would be lost. 
Perhaps it might be desirable to extend case 140 to highlight the situation where A fails to lodge a valid protest? 
Created: 25-Sep-19 10:02
Tim O'Connor
Reply to: 19023 - Jim Champ
The problem is there you’re incentivising and rewarding a risk-free doing nothing, instead of incentivising and rewarding doing what you’re meant to do and protesting. 
Created: 25-Sep-19 10:09
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Angelo Guarino
Forum Moderator
Nationality: United States
Giff re: "I think Case 140 provides useful guidance here to the jury for their next move,"

Case 140 requires a protest hearing. See my detailed reply here. Cases are interpretations of the RRS for the facts given in the case. In every instance in Case 140 a protest hearing preceded the R4R. 

You can't simply (repeatedly) brush that aside. 
Created: 25-Sep-20 21:31
Jerry Thompson
Nationality: United States
Reply to: 19053 - Angelo Guarino
To narrow this scenario and take a protest off the table, let's say that X took a penalty on the water and Y does not file a protest. We can even say that the scores aren't posted until the next morning. Y sees the UFD within minutes of posting and i...
Ang, ignore Giff's last paragraph that references Case 140.  What do your thoughts on the remainder:


To narrow this scenario and take a protest off the table, let's say that X took a penalty on the water and Y does not file a protest. We can even say that the scores aren't posted until the next morning. Y sees the UFD within minutes of posting and immediately files a request for redress.

In the redress hearing, both X and Y testify that the UFD was caused by the contact. 

The jury realizes that Y was exonerated at the time of the incident.

Thus the jury realizes with this significant new evidence and that RC broke 43.2. 

The jury concludes that Y's score was made significantly worse through no fault of her own, and that RC did make an improper action by breaking 43.2. Thus redress can be granted under 61.4(b)(1).




Created: 25-Sep-20 22:41
Giff Constable
Nationality: United States
Jerry is right that the discussion of Case 140's applicability is a separate issue as to whether a redress hearing can get their way to an improper action.

But I'm interested to know what is behind your stance about how to use the Case book?

To me, we aren't meant to take the Case book solely literally and completely confined to the facts of each one. That's akin to looking at Case 20 and saying, well, if isn't a dinghy who capsized where another dinghy sailed over to offer help, the case does not apply.

There is nothing in the World or US Sailing Judges Manual that says that Cases must be read and used literally and only constrained to the situation of the case. 

On the contrary, the WS Judges Manual merely says, "World Sailing publishes The Case Book as authoritative interpretations of the racing rules. They are based upon appeals and questions submitted to the Racing Rules Committee. They clarify the meaning of a rule or answer questions about conflicting interpretations. Judges are required to follow the RRS and Cases when interpreting the rules."

To me the word "interpreting" is very important.

I'm not trying to be uselessly argumentative. If I've missed something, I am very open to hearing it.

Created: 25-Sep-20 23:44
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John Allan
Nationality: Australia
I think that once X, in a redress hearing, admits to breaking a rule and says that she took an applicable penalty, my objections to the protest committee concluding that she broke a rule outside of a valid protest hearing, go away, and we can treat the situation just as if she had gone through a protest hearing.

I don't think we can find any fault in a boat, seeing another boat taking a penalty immediately after an incident, not protesting her.

Case 140 is really very useful, particularly to remind us how to deal with how to give redress when a B/UFD boat does sail the course, and, more difficultly, when she does not start in a resailed race.

I don't think its useful to be thinking about whether evidence is new or not:  it's just evidence in a hearing, and we take it on its merits.
Created: 25-Sep-20 23:11
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John Allan
Nationality: Australia
There is no authority requiring us to apply cases strictly within the conditions or scenario of the specific case (nor to construe cases into ratio decidendi and obiter dicta as a lawyer would do with a law court case).

To the degree that the circumstances of a hearing match up with a case, judges must apply the case quite strictly.

Otherwise judges should use judgement and discretion in how broadly or narrowly they apply interpretations contained in a case and should, where necessary, argue from the basis of the case by extension and analogy.

Cases vary in how well they explain the rationale for the interpretation. 
Created: 25-Sep-21 00:32
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Angelo Guarino
Forum Moderator
Nationality: United States
Cliff re: "To me, we aren't meant to take the Case book solely literally and completely confined to the facts of each one. "

That's not what I said. 

What I said is that a Case is based on a set of facts and are often born out of PC decisions and many out of the resulting 1 - 2 levels of appeals.  

Just like a PC decision, conclusions (how the rules apply) are derived based on those facts.  The Case discussions often elaborate on those conclusions. 

You change a key fact .. the Case might not apply and it actually may lead you astray. 

The fact that all the scenarios in Case 140 are post protest hearing where a PC found that Y was compelled to cross the line, is a key fact .. and the conclusions take that fact as a given. That is why it is repeated in each question fact-set. 
Created: 25-Sep-21 01:09
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Angelo Guarino
Forum Moderator
Nationality: United States
Cliff, Please reread Mark T's comment here.

If that's not enough ....

I think we all agree that IF there was a PC hearing as described in Cass 140, and the other facts aligned, we would apply Case 140 and the PC would direct the RC to correct her score as a result of the protest hearing decision. Right?

Q: Whose fault is it that did not happen? ... and then how does she get past "no fault of her own" coming into an R4R-hearing only?
Created: 25-Sep-21 10:20
Jerry Thompson
Nationality: United States
Y is pushed over the line by X who breaks Rules 12 and 14.
Y protests X.
X takes a two penalty turns.
Y returns to the pre-start side of the line and starts.
Both boat finish.
Later that day after the protest time limit has expired, the scores are posted, Y is scored UFD.
Y files for redress in which she claims RC broke RRS 43.2.

Is Y at fault for not following through by requesting a hearing after racing protesting X even though X took a penalty?


Created: 25-Sep-21 10:49
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Angelo Guarino
Forum Moderator
Nationality: United States
Jerry ... IMHO .. yes. That is the proper avenue under the rules as currently written. 

Had Y taken certain actions (valid protest) she wouldn't be in this pickle. Therefore she is at least partially at fault she's in the pickle she's in as she entered the R4R hearing. 

It is Y's responsibility to validly protest X and have this adjudicated in a protest hearing ... and as Mark clearly details in his post, this does not meet any of the R4R conditions.

(Or convert the R4R request into protest .. but the notifying the protestee her intent to protest will be a hurdle in validity)
Created: 25-Sep-21 11:00
Jerry Thompson
Nationality: United States
This has been a great discussion. It reinforces the position that sailors who break a rule as a result of another sailor breaking a rule, thereby exonerated by Rule 43, should always protest that sailor and follow through with a request for hearing within the protest time limit, even if that sailor took a penalty on the water.

The scenario of one boat breaking a rule which causes another boat to be over the starting line within the last minute of a penalty start is rare, but it does happen.
Created: 25-Sep-21 11:18
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John Allan
Nationality: Australia
Ang, Jerry,  I don't think we can find any fault in a boat, seeing another boat taking a penalty immediately after an incident, not protesting her.

Just as a matter of logic, Case 140 tells us what to do IF a boat is disqualified in a protest hearing. It does not tell us what to do if the boat is not disqualified or penalized in a protest hearing.

We've gone through a few gradations of facts about X breaking a rule in this thread, I think in the following order:
  1. Case 140 full scenario:  Y protests X and protest committee concludes that Y broke rules and compelled X over the line.
  2. X comes to redress hearing and says that she broke rules
  3. X takes turns penalty immediately after the incident.

I'm happy that for the purposes of redress, X admitting that she broke rules in a redress hearing is equivalent to a protest committee concluding in a protest hearing that she broke rules.

While, in my opinion, we cannot safely conclude that X taking penalty turns proves that she broke rules (RRS 44.1:  a boat may take a penalty when she may have broken a rule), it X takes a turns penalty immediately after an incident with Y, we cannot fairly conclude that Y is as at fault for not protesting.

And we're only grasping after fault of her own to complete the technical requirements of RRS 61.4(b) to dismiss the request for redress when we cannot fairly conclude that X broke rules.

We wouldn't be in this pickle <g> if we hadn't agreed that it was unfair, in the course of a redress hearing, to concluded that X broke a rule.  If X freely admits that she broke a rule, the unfairness goes away.
Created: 25-Sep-21 11:19
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Angelo Guarino
Forum Moderator
Nationality: United States
Reply to: 19067 - John Allan
John ... so I assume you are relying upon the "error"'condition in RRS 61.4(b)(1)?  What is the error?
Created: 25-Sep-21 11:30
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John Allan
Nationality: Australia
Ang, i can't see anything about 'error' in RRS 61.4(b), but has something passed me by?  Have we been discussing any other grounds for giving redress other than that?
Created: 25-Sep-21 11:38
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Angelo Guarino
Forum Moderator
Nationality: United States
Reply to: 19071 - John Allan
Correct. .. improper action or omission. 

How do you describe it in the write-up?  .. or are you choosing another section of 61.4(b)?
Created: 25-Sep-21 11:55
P
John Allan
Nationality: Australia
Scenario
As in OP.

Additional facts

X took a Two turns penalty immediately after contact with Y.

There was no injury or damage

Comment

If I was hearing the request for redress, I would want to get X into the room as a witness, and I would hope she would give evidence consistent with OP Fact Found.

But let's suppose that X does not appear as a witness (for whatever good reason).
 
Facts found.
 
  1. 10 seconds before the starting signal (Uniform flag displayed), boat Y, on starboard tack, was stationary, positioned near to leeward of the starting line and about few meters to port of the race committee boat.
  2. Boat X, also on starboard tack and clear astern of Y, was approaching from behind. X failed to keep clear and made contact with Y’s stern, causing Y to be pushed over the starting line before the starting signal.
  3.  X took a Two turns penalty immediately after contact with Y.
  4. There was no injury or damage
  5.  The Race Committee identified Y as being over the line during the period before the start and scored her UFD under Rule 30.3.
  6. Immediately after the contact, Y maneuvered back to the pre-start side of the line and successfully started from the correct side.
  7. Y sailed the course and finished.

Conclusion
  1. Y was compelled to to break RRS 30.3 as a consequence of Y breaking RRS 12 and 14.  Y was exonerated for breaking RRS 30.3 by RRS 43.1(a).
  2. [Y, having taken an applicable penalty shall not be penalised further in accordance with RRS 60.5(c)(1)]
  3. The race committee was required to score X in her finishing place.  Scoring X UFD was an improper action of the race committee.
  4. X's score in the race was made significantly worse through no fault of her own by the improper action of the race committee.  X is entitled to redress in accordance with RRS 61.45(b)(1).

Decision
Redress is given as follows:  X is to be scored in her finishing place and boats finishing behind X are to be moved down one place.
Created: 25-Sep-21 12:44
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Angelo Guarino
Forum Moderator
Nationality: United States
Reply to: 19075 - John Allan
John re: conclusion #3 .. when/how was the RC required to score Y in her finish place?

In other words ... outside of this R4R hearing .. can you describe the scenario/process that the RC should have followed?
Created: 25-Sep-21 13:39
Jim Champ
Nationality: United Kingdom
Reply to: 19075 - John Allan
> Scoring X UFD was an improper action of the race committee.

This is the thing I am struggling with all the way through. No matter whether there was a protest or not, scoring X UFD was an improper action under 43.2, which is no less important a rule than 30.3. 

This is a problem that exists in any circumstance where a competitor can be disqualified without a hearing for a rule breach that may be exonerated. Currently there does not appear to be a solution. 
Created: 25-Sep-21 13:56
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John Allan
Nationality: Australia
Ang,
1.  Case 140.

2.  Race committee does nothing because they don't  know she was exonerated until the protest committee tells them.
Created: 25-Sep-21 13:42
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Angelo Guarino
Forum Moderator
Nationality: United States
Reply to: 19077 - John Allan
2.  Race committee does nothing becausethey don't  know she was exonerated until the protest committee tells them.

Maybe I'm just being thick (not uncommon occurrence for sure). 

If Y and X walked up to the RC directly with all the same info (no R4R hearing), should [was] the RC [required to] have changed Y to her finish place?
Created: 25-Sep-21 13:54
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John Allan
Nationality: Australia
Ang,  If Y and X walked up to the RC directly with all the same info (no R4R hearing), should the RC have changed Y to her finish place?

Maybe

But there still has to be a conclusion about 'compelled' which then race committee might or should be reluctant to make.

What's the consequence if the race committee does change the score on th spot?

Another boat requests redress and now the protest committee can make the decision that changing the score from UFD to place score was not improper and the changed score stands.
Created: 25-Sep-21 14:04
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Angelo Guarino
Forum Moderator
Nationality: United States
Reply to: 19080 - John Allan
I had edited my condition while you were typing your reply.  I think it is better to ask the "shall/require" question ...

If Y and X walked up to the RC directly with all the same info (no R4R hearing), should [was] the RC [required to] have changed Y to her finish place?
Created: 25-Sep-21 16:13
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John Allan
Nationality: Australia
Jim,   This is a problem that exists in any circumstance where a competitor can be disqualified without a hearing for a rule breach that may be exonerated. Currently there does not appear to be a solution. 

I don't think it's that much of a problem.

The only penalties affected are ZFP, UFD, and BFD, which are all able to be resolved using Case 140, and SP or DSQ under a SI, which can probably be resolved easily enough by redress.
Created: 25-Sep-21 14:14
Mark Townsend
Nationality: United States
100
Tips
Although I agree with the end result, that Boat Y is exonerated for her breach of rule 30.3, I am of the opinion that you can't achieve that through a Request for Redress as there is no improper action or improper omission of the race committee.

In order for Boat Y to be exonerated for breaking rule 30.3, Boat X must have broken a rule, and as a consequence of breaking a rule have compelled Boat Y to break rule 30.3. The fact that Boat X takes a Two-Turns Penalty does not, by that action alone, admit she has broken a rule. Also, as a consequence of breaking a rule Boat X must have compelled Boat Y to break rule 30.3. There has to be a conclusion about Boat X compelling Boat Y to break rule 30.3, which the race committee should be reluctant to make without a decision from the protest committee. 

Rule A5.1 - When a race committee determines that a boat: (b) did not comply with rule 30.2, 30.3, 30.4 or 78.2, it shall score the boat accordingly without a hearing. Hence, no improper action or improper omission of the race committee for scoring Boat Y UFD.

Case 140 states that "A lodges a valid protest against B. The protest committee disqualifies B for breaking a rule of Part 2. The committee finds that B, as a consequence of breaking a rule, has compelled A to break rule 30.3 or 30.4."  

The protest committee has to find that Boat X broke a rule of Part 2, and as a consequence of breaking a rule, compelled Boat Y to break rule 30.3. Rule 60.5(b)(1) states that "A boat shall only be penalized at a protest hearing to which she is a party."  In my opinion you can't penalize Boat X and exonerate boat Y in a redress hearing.

Hear Boat Y's request for redress and change the type of case to a protest hearing under rule 63.2(c). ​It would remain valid under rule 60.3(a)(2) as the boat was unaware that she was UFD until the scores were posted. 
Created: 25-Sep-21 16:23
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Angelo Guarino
Forum Moderator
Nationality: United States
Mark ... I agree with your post. 

It would remain valid under rule 60.3(a)(2) as the boat was unaware that she was UFD until the scores were posted. 

So there are 2 elements to the validity ..

  1. Filing TL after the info was avail (60.3(a)(2))
  2. Notifying the protestee at the first reasonable opportunity under rule 60.4(b)

I've been wrestling with #2. I'm tossing this out there ... it's admittedly a bit half-baked. 

So the PC converts the R4R into a prostest.  AFTER the conversion, Y (newly minted protestor) immediately notifies X (now protestee) regarding the conversion and Y's intent to protest. 

Given the circumstances and timing of the conversion, could a PC look at the time of conversion as the start of the "first reasonable opportunity" clock?
Created: 25-Sep-21 17:11
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