Forum: The Racing Rules of Sailing

When is an entry an entry?

Paul Kimmens
Nationality: United Kingdom
Subject to any changes in the event NoR or SI's some boats scores are determined by the number of entries plus a number of points as per RRS A5.2 .

With modern technology lots of events facilitate entry via an online methods.

If a boat enters a race in a series but is scored DNC should that 'entry' be included in the number of boats entered in the series?

For example at my club we have a really good bespoke web based results package that allows club members to enter races via the web which means they can enter remotely.  They can enter races up to two weeks in advance. If on the day of the race they decide not to race they are obviously scored DNC  but they appear on the list of entries for that series.  If they do not compete in any races in the series but have entered online they appear in the results an an entry and are therefore counted as an entry as per RRS A5.2

This can skew the score for DNC for other members that have competed in some races.

Can boats that only have DNC results in the series be deleted from the series, thus making the number of entries in the series more realistic?  Members that don't enter any races in the series are not counted so can't see that this is any different other than the fact  that a boat has 'entered'.

One obvious way around this would be to add something in our NoR to state that any boats that have entered a series but whose results are only DNC will not be counted as a boat entered in the series for the purposes of A5.2 and add the rider that this changes A5.2.

How does your club/event handle this situation?

Hence my question when is an entry an entry?

Many Thanks

Paul Kimmens

 
Created: Today 14:17

Comments

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Angelo Guarino
Forum Moderator
Nationality: United States
Paul, we had a thread called "'Enter' the Zombies?" in 2020 which touches and explores some of these questions.   

Also, in  the OP of that thread I cite some Cases, Rules and a Q&A which address questions too. 
Created: Today 14:20
Kirsteen Donaldson
I don't think the method of entry (online or any other way is relevant).  But we've had the same issue with occasional boats entering just one race in a series and then not competing (maybe the weather put them off, or a change in their calendar).  We took the view that RRS A2.2 is absolutely clear, "If a boat has entered any race in a series, she shall be scored for the whole series" so they were counted, but we agreed that this can (and has) affect other boats' series scores and position in the series, which felt unfair.  In subsequent Notices of Race we now say "To be eligible for a series score, a boat must rank as a starter for at least 1 race in the series.  This changes RRS A2.2."
Created: Today 14:58
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Angelo Guarino
Forum Moderator
Nationality: United States
Paul .. this is an SI that is a basic standard at Annapolis YC ... 

The first sentence of RRS Appendix A5.2 is deleted
and replaced by: "A boat that did not start, did not
finish, retired, was TLE, did not come to the
starting area, did not sail the course, or was
disqualified shall be scored points for the finishing
place one more than the number of boats that
finished."

With that, DNC's don't "add-up". 

PS:  I've used variants on that where DNC is finishers +2 and everyone else is finishers +1
Created: Today 15:25
Robert Williams
Nationality: United States
I run a 25 race beer can series; it’s actually 5 series of 5 races, plus an over all for the season. We faced the same problem so I changed RRS A.5.2 so that boats that raced, or came out to race but didn’t finish for any reason (RET, DNF, or OCS) are scored starters+1.  Boats that don’t come out to race or are disqualified (DNC, DNE, DSQ) are scored # in series+1.  Basically, you take a bigger score hit if you don’t show up  or get disqualified than if you show up but fail to finish for any reason. 
Created: Today 15:28
Michael Moradzadeh
We run into this a lot with our months-long Friday Nights series.
We score roughly as
DNF = finishers + 1
DNS/OCS = starters + 1
DSQ = starters + 2

Otherwise, you get immense point burdens on boats who, for one reason or another (lack of wind, ski trips) don't make a start or finish. Similarly, we have a small handful in each division that just never show up.  They should not skew the point counts.
Created: Today 15:34
Kirsteen Donaldson
WRT Robert's comment, A5.3 effects pretty much the same outcome as his change to A5.2 (though he may need to add DNC, DNE).  I'm not familiar with DSW, not one of the standard acronyms in RRS.  
Created: Today 15:36
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Angelo Guarino
Forum Moderator
Nationality: United States
Kirsteen re: DSW ... that stands for "Designer Shoe Warehouse". When a boat is scored DSW by the RC, the boat owner is required to buy the entire crew new boat shoes before the next regatta ;-)

It's a "US-thing". 
Created: Today 15:45
Robert Williams
Nationality: United States
Thanks  that was a typo, DSW=DSQ; I edited my mistake. 
Created: Today 18:03
Jonah Dekeyzer
You could use A5.3 (to apply in the NOR or SI)
Created: Today 15:37
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Michael Butterfield
Not always the correct question.

The defect in dnc is not a problem is the series has a large munber if discards.

Online entry at champioships normally has registration if not registered you did not enter. This solves lots of problems.

If your club has a sign in out requirement.

Why not make signing in an entry requirement, then your problem is solved.
Created: Today 17:15
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Angelo Guarino
Forum Moderator
Nationality: United States
Mike B .. When you look at the WS Q&A and consider our terminology .. I think it would benefit our sport to start adopting a difference in terminology:  Resistant vs Entrant.

Registrant: A boat that has completed the initial minimum steps in the entry process which identifies their boat and their intention to participate.

Entrant: A boat that complies with RRS 75 and has not been properly excluded under RRS 76.   

Along with that, I'd like to encourage all online regatta management systems to adopt the "registrant" term unless indicating a state of completion under RRS 75.  

So if you have only signed up but have other steps to complete, the "scratch sheet" would show a "List of Registrants" instead of "List of Entires". 

The above would align the RRS with our Regatta Mgmt Systems. 
Created: Today 17:59
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