Forum: Rule 18 and Room at the Mark

Rule 18.2(d)

Rene Nusse
Nationality: Australia
Hi All,
Does someone have diagrams to illustrate this rule scenario?
(d)  If a boat obtained an inside overlap from clear astern or by tacking to windward of the other boat and, from the time the overlap began, the outside boat has been unable to give mark-room, rules 18.2(a) and 18.2(c) do not apply between them.
Much appreciated if you direct me to the right spot...
Cheers,
Rene
Created: 26-Feb-10 03:16

Comments

Format:
Mark Townsend
Nationality: United States
Created: 26-Feb-10 04:33
Gordon Davies
Nationality: Ireland
This is a common issue when sailing in restricted waters. For instance if Turquoise could give room because of the river bank, or a line of moored boats.
Red does not have room so must keep clear under RRS 11.
If Red gybes on to starboard then RRS 15 applies and she must give all 4 boats room to keep clear, including  space to comply with their obligations under Part 2 and 31
Created: 26-Feb-10 11:18
Dustin Romey
Nationality: United States
This doesn't necessarily look to me like they're unable to comply.  Obviously depends on boats, windspeed, and other factors.  

My first question would be if they're unable to manuever to allow mark room, what keeps them from slowing down? If it's a 49er or I-14, clearly not possible.  If its an IOD/J-24/Laser, why didn't you douse/overtrim/etc.? And as they're drawn extremely close to each other, one would assume this is in very light winds, which would further allow slowing.

Second thought would be that while it may absolve yellow, would it absolve the other three who also had an obligation to give room if possible?
Created: 26-Feb-10 15:18
P
Angelo Guarino
Forum Moderator
Nationality: United States
Gordon re: "This is a common issue when sailing in restricted waters. For instance if Turquoise could give room because of the river bank, or a line of moored boats.  Red does not have room so must keep clear under RRS 11."

Just to spell out what you wrote, that's because in both cases you are describing continuous obstructions and therefore RRS 18 no longer applies.   RYA 2017/1 describes the rules application in detail. 
Created: 26-Feb-11 12:31
Ben Williams
Thanks Mark.  In this case what should red do?  Can they not round the mark and protest/seek redress or do they have to tack around and find a space behind the pack?  Surely, somehow turquoise should be penalized unless she is somehow restricted by an obstruction.  Appreciate your advice. Ben
Created: 26-Feb-10 06:30
Niko Kotsatos
Nationality: United States
Red should never expect that by getting room at 3.5 boat-lengths that she will suddenly have THE POWER (except maybe in teams racing or match racing). That applies doubly when there are multiple boats. Red should have been planning to have no room at position 1, when she was clearly astern and at the whim of Yellow's angle, as well as the maneuverability of three additional boats who cannot see her.
Created: 26-Feb-10 13:03
P
John Allan
Nationality: Australia
Well it's tactical advice rather than a racing rules answer, but maybe gybe and try to stick it to Yellow before the zone, get Yellow to gybe and maybe create enough room to get around on the inside.

Otherwise drop kite early, fishtail like crazy to lose speed and follow Yellow around on the inside line.

Do not go around the outside 5 deep.
Created: 26-Feb-10 10:00
Tim O'Connor
Reply to: 20503 - John Allan
Flick onto starboard at 1 and sail a hot angle to make the dominoes fall before the zone, and then flick back to port into that gap?
Created: 26-Feb-10 11:05
Kirsteen Donaldson
An anecdote from a long time ago as an inside boat in a somewhat similar situation - Class 1 started on a beat, as we approached the "windward" mark, the wind died.  Class 2 started 10 mins later.  The wind filled in behind, so Class 2 hoisted kites and mostly headed into a line of stationary Class 1 boats, which hadn't yet got the wind.  There was a lot of shouting!  The boat that won out of all the mess was the one that did go round the outside of both classes - although sailing further, she kept moving in clean air and was off on the new beat whilst the rest were still shouting and pushing others off.  (I don't recall what happened in the protest room.)
Created: 26-Feb-10 10:54
Tim O'Connor
There’s the plan, and then there’s what the wind allows, and the two sets may intersect if you’re lucky…
Created: 26-Feb-10 13:09
Gordon Davies
Nationality: Ireland
Tim,
If Red gybes onto starboard she acquires RoW and under RRS 15 she must allow Turquoise room to keep clear of Green, Green room to keep clear of Blue, Blue room to keep clear of Yellow and Yellow room to keep clear of Red!
Created: 26-Feb-10 15:42
Tim O'Connor
Agreed, which is why you have to do it early at 1. It’s your one chance of making the others make it their problem rather than all your problem

You’ll even then likely not get all of them, and you’ll be in trouble if you push for all of them, but by going early and taking it handy on a broad reach, you’ve got a sporting chance the outside two will be driven wide enough you’ll have a decent lane to slot into. 
Created: 26-Feb-10 16:20
Mark Townsend
Nationality: United States

An example of rule 18.2(d) "by tacking to windward of the other boat"
image.png 45.8 KB



Created: 26-Feb-10 16:34
Dustin Romey
Nationality: United States
Well that's even more clear that they could slow to give mark room.  
Created: 26-Feb-10 18:01
Eric Meyn
So if red gets the overlap and the four other boats don't provide room because the outermost boats don't fall off enough, and red can't make the mark, what then?  Round on the wrong side and don't take a penalty because it's not her fault?  Circle back and round correctly and request redress?  Red is sailing in a way that should put her ahead at the rounding and gets shoved into no-man's-land through no fault of her own. 
Created: 26-Feb-10 16:57
P
John Allan
Nationality: Australia
Reply to: 20521 - Eric Meyn
So if red gets the overlap and the four other boats don't provide room because the outermost boats don't fall off enough, and red can't make the mark, what then?  Round on the wrong side and don't take a penalty because it's not her fault?  Circle ba...
Referring to the first diagram.

Red is required to keep clear of all the other boats to leeward of her on the same tack (RRS 11).

Red is not entitled to mark-room (RRS 18.2(d).

As diagrammed, Red is keeping clear and breaks no rule.

If Red had tried to get between Yellow and the mark, she would break RRS 11 and not be exonerated because she was NOT sailing within any mark-room to which she was entitled.

From @4, if Red does not turn back and leave the mark to port, she will [eventually] break RRS 28.  For a breach of RRS 28, there is no on-water penalty and Red's only penalty is to Retire or be scored NSC by the race committee.  Red is not 'at fault' until she crosses the finishing line without rounding the mark on the specified side.

Red needs to tack around and round the mark on the specified side.
Created: 26-Feb-10 22:45
Niko Kotsatos
Nationality: United States
My summary of this thread is that 18.2(d) is similar to 18.2(e) in that it simply says you can't get a last-second overlap and expect room.
Created: 26-Feb-11 14:18
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