Forum: The Racing Rules of Sailing

Zone and RRS 18 in a HC fleet with boats of different lengths

Andrew Lesslie
The situation is a mixed HC fleet, where a 20ft boat and a 40ft boat are approaching a mark, with the 20ft boat traveling faster and breaking an overlap near the mark.

The longer boat argues the zone began at 120 ft and the boats were overlapped when entering the zone, the shorter boat argues the zone began at 60 ft and the overlap was broken before entering the zone.

Definition state that the Zone is "The area around a mark within a distance of three hull lengths of the boat nearer to it."
A strict reading of the definition suggests the zone begins 60ft from the mark and that's when Rule 18 switches on. 

But if the boats were even, or if the longer boat were slightly ahead, would the Zone be from 120 ft?

A prudent race committee will want to resolve the ambiguity in advance, wither through reference to a case, or through local practice, but the question is how?
RRS 86.1 doesn't appear to permit an SI to be written to change the definition of Zone, but perhaps allows a changes to 18.1(a) or 18.2(a).

Any recommendations, please?
Created: 26-Mar-04 01:37

Comments

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John Allan
Nationality: Australia
While the 40 ft boat is most advanced and nearer to the mark, the zone is 120 ft.

If the 40 ft boat reaches the 120 ft zone, overlapped, but before the 20 ft boat, then she is the first of two boats to reach the zone, RRS 18.2(a)(1) applies and whichever boat is outside is required to give the inside boat mark-room, and RRS 18.2(a) last sentence applies

When a boat is required to give mark-room by this rule, she shall continue to do so for as long as this rule applies, even if later an overlap is broken or a new overlap begins.

If the 20 ft boat then becomes advanced and nearer the mark, then, theoretically the zone contracts to 60 ft, but this does not change the entitlement of the boat, overlapped inside at the 120 ft zone, to mark-room.

If the 20 ft boat becomes advanced and nearer the mark at the 120 ft mark, then the zone is defined by her length, as 60 ft, and at that point neither boat is in the zone and RRS 18 does not apply.

  • If the 20 ft boat remains advanced, and reaches the 60 ft zone first and overlapped, RRS 18.2(a)(1) applies and the outside boat is required to give the inside boat mark-room.
  • If the 40 ft boat then draws ahead and becomes nearer the mark, then the 120 ft zone will 'click in', boats will be in the zone and RRS 18 will apply.  The zone boundary has leapt over the boats from the 60 ft position to the 120 ft position.  In this case neither boat can be identified as the 'first of two boats to reach the zone' and RRS 18.2(a) will not apply.  RRS 18.2(c) will apply and the outside boat shall give the inside boat mark-room.

If the bows of the boats were level at the 120 ft zone, the protest committee would apply the last point of certainty: Immediately before the 120 ft zone boundary, the bow of the 20 ft boat, overtaking from astern was further from the mark than the bow of the 40 ft boat, so the 40 ft boat was nearer the mark and the 120 ft zone would apply.

There us nothing for a prudent race committee to resolve.

This is a straightforward application of the Definition of zone, RRS 28, and the last point of certainty principle.
Created: 26-Mar-04 02:09
John Christman
Nationality: United States
John A - Is there a case or call where "In this case neither boat can be identified as the 'first of two boats to reach the zone' and RRS 18.2(a) will not apply" is spelled out?  It seems to me that even though the edge of the zone is suddenly behind them, they can still know which was the first boat to reach that zone and what the overlap state was.

Is it possible that because the 120 ft zone is behind them, it can never be the defining zone i.e. once they have passed the 120 ft zone with the 20 boat closer to it at that point in time, the zone will always be the 60 ft zone no matter which boat is nearer to the mark?

I suspect that this is one of those situations where the rule writers would have decided that it wasn't worth the effort to resolve this in the rule in order to keep it simple.  After all, neither boat wants to get tangled up with the other boat.  The outside boat will likely just give the inside boat room.
Created: 26-Mar-04 04:17
Paul Kimmens
Nationality: United Kingdom
No need for a case. 18.2 (e) states “If there is reasonable doubt that a boat obtained or broke an
overlap in time, it shall be presumed that she did not.”


Created: 26-Mar-04 04:34
John Christman
Nationality: United States
Paul - I think for this discussion we are assuming that we know the states of the boats, i.e. which boat is nearer the mark and the positions relative to each other, with certainty.
Created: 26-Mar-04 04:37
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John Allan
Nationality: Australia
John C, No, I can't cite a case or a call.

I suppose when 40 gets bow out between 60 and 120, the zone leaps back to 120 and you could backtrack to that zone, where 20 was nearer the mark:  I think that's looking a bit absurd and convoluted.''

I haven't squeezed the lemon dry, but I suspect that you're right:  no matter what, the outside overlapped boat is going to be required to give mark-room, so it's not worth chasing after the corner cases.

Is it possible that because the 120 ft zone is behind them, it can never be the defining zone

It's possible, but I think it would take a Case to do it, otherwise, I think applying the words of Definition Zone causes the 'leap-over'.
Created: 26-Mar-04 04:39
John Christman
Nationality: United States
I agree that jumping back in time would be a bit of a 'Quantum Leap' in applying the rules.  But sometimes RRS 18 does have a 'memory'.  I think I could go with any interpretation without much heartache.

This is where you want the sailors to focus on what is important, which is not to be stuck on the outside of another boat and to get into an orderly line so that you have all your options open after the rounding.
Created: 26-Mar-04 04:48
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John Allan
Nationality: Australia
Paul Kimmens

No need for a case. 18.2 (e) states “If there is reasonable doubt that a boat obtained or broke an overlap in time, it shall be presumed that she did not.”

John Christman

Paul - I think for this discussion we are assuming that we know the states of the boats, i.e. which boat is nearer the mark and the positions relative to each other, with certainty.

Paul, RRS 18.2(3) doesn't exactly get us there.  It is a specific application of the Last Point of Certainty Principle that applies when there is doubt about whether or not boats are overlapped.

The more general statement of the Last Point of Certainty Principle is in RRS C2.6

LAST POINT OF CERTAINTY
The umpires will assume that the state of a boat, or her relationship to another boat, has not changed, until they are certain that it has changed.

This is an important principle:  judges use it all the time where there is doubt.

I'm a bit amazed that it is not discussed in the Judges Manual
Created: 26-Mar-04 05:13
Andrew Lesslie
I very much appreciate the thoughtful discussion.
Thank you all.
Created: 26-Mar-04 06:12
Edgar Smith
Interesting discussion, but it begs the question: if the 20' boat has broken the overlap and is clear ahead and going faster, then under what circumstance have they not given room for the slower 40 footer at the mark presumably behind them?
Created: 26-Mar-04 14:01
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John Allan
Nationality: Australia
Starting with boats overlapped before the 120 ft zone.

If 40 was more advanced and reached the 120 ft zone first, then RRS 18.2(a)(1) applied and the outside boat was required to give the inside boat mark-room, and according to RRS 18.2(a) last sentence, continue to do so for as long as this rule applied, even if later 20 broke the overlap by becoming clear ahead.

If 20 was more advanced at the 120 ft zone, then she was nearer the mark at that time and the 60 ft zone applied.

If 20 then drew ahead and reached the 60 ft zone clear ahead, then RRS 18.2(a)(2) applied and 40 was required to give 20 mark-room, likewise,  for as long as this rule applied. 
Created: 26-Mar-04 17:26
Andrew Rist
I was a bit confused here by the zone defined by the lead boat, but went ahead and reread 18 and then the definitions.  This is now starting to make my head hurt...

If the 20 is bracketed by two 40 footers, one ahead and one behind, but all overlapped, does that mean two different zones when dealing with the two boats beside her?

Created: 26-Mar-05 00:23
Richard Jones
If 20 was more advanced at the 120 ft zone, then she was nearer the mark at that time and the 60 ft zone applied.

If 40 then drew ahead and reached the 60 ft zone ahead, then there is no zone defined so R18 cannot apply as at least one boat cannot be in the zone.

That means R19 can apply as Rule 19 applies between two boats at an obstruction except when rule 18 applies between them and the obstruction is the mark. 

That gives R43 exoneration.
Created: 26-Mar-05 15:46
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John Allan
Nationality: Australia
Reply to: 20738 - Richard Jones
If 40 then drew ahead and reached the 60 ft zone ahead, then there is no zone defined so R18 cannot apply
Richard, I don't think you are correctly applying the definition of zone.

Here is the definition

Zone The area around a mark within a distance of three hull lengths of the boat nearer to it. A boat is in the zone when any part of her hull is in the zone.

There is nothing in the definition about it ceasing to apply when there is a change in the boat nearest to the mark.

As between two boats there will always be a boat nearer to the mark (if boats appear equal, applying the last point of certainty principle explained above), and there will always be a zone as defined.

And, by the by, there was nothing in the OP about the mark being an obstruction.
Created: 26-Mar-08 22:07
Satish Kumar Kanwar
If at 120 ft, 40 ft boat was overlapped and bow ahead, then rule 18 is applicable and the Zone will be as per the 40 ft boat. Later at 60 ft, if the 20 ft boat nudges ahead of the 40 ft boat, the Zone had already been defined by the 40 ft boat (and rule 18 had started applying) and this condition will continue as per 18.2(a) later portion ie

When a boat is required to give mark-room by this rule, she
shall continue to do so for as long as this rule applies, even if
later an overlap is broken or a new overlap begins

Created: 26-Mar-06 07:04
Richard Jones
Hi John.

If 20 is ahead at 120 ft they are not in the zone because they have not reached it.

If at some point between 120 ft and 60 ft, 40 gets ahead so becomes closest to the mark, how does the zone start, bearing in mind they are not in a zone at that point. Is it at the point 40 gets ahead between 120 ft and 60 ft.

Or is it when they reach 60 ft with 40 still the nearest boat to the mark.

R18,2a requires to know when the first boat reaches the zone.

And somehow, if the zone is vague, boats following them could somehow be in the zone also possibly without knowing

Somehow it doesn't stack up.
Created: 26-Mar-10 20:35
Richard Jones
Also, I think some marks can be obstructions if R18 does not apply. At sea there are some very heavy and solid metal marker buoys which could be used as marks in a race. They could do some serious damage to a wooden boat.

In our club on a small lake we have a structure called the hut. It is a platform in the lake, about 14 ft x 14 ft with a wooden shed on it with a good viewing window. It used to be used for the race committee when running races. Later they bought a committee boat, because the hut being in a corner of the lake, limited the directions they could make the first beat.

A few years ago, a big storm came across the Atlantic from the US and blew the whole shed off the platform into the lake. The shed is now gone but the platform still remains. We quite often use it as a mark because the 4 cardinal marks are not always a good line.

Hitting it in a sailing dinghy at speed would do serious damage.


Created: 26-Mar-10 20:49
John Christman
Nationality: United States
Whether something is a mark or an obstruction or both is a matter of whether it meets the definitions of either of these.  Something can be both, but not all marks are obstructions and not all obstructions are marks.  Whether this is important depends on whether rules 18, 19, or 20 will apply when boats are dealing with them.
Created: 26-Mar-10 21:21
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John Allan
Nationality: Australia
Richard, does this diagram help?

image.png 103 KB
Created: 26-Mar-10 23:10
Andrew Lesslie
Digression and diversion is fun, but going back to my original scenario:
The mark is a mark of the course.  It's not an obstruction.  It might scuff a nice paint finish but it won't sink a boat.

Here's the scenario I have in mind:
image.png 733 KB

Conditions are benign, no appreciable sea state, wind 10 kts.  Wind is down the page, mark to be left to port,

The Yellow boat is 15ft long, Blue is 20ft, Green and Red are 40ft. All are overlapped, the overlaps are not in dispute.
Yellow is <45ft from the mark

There is contact between Yellow and Blue, between Blue and Green, and between Green and Red. Yellow is within 45' of the mark when contact occurs with Blue, and Green is with 120' of the mark when contact with Red occurs.
Each boat protests the boats they make contact with.  The PC combines the protests into a single incident.

What facts will the PC find?
What will be the conclusions and applicable rules?
What will be the decisions, and scoring changes, if any?




Created: 26-Mar-10 21:38
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John Allan
Nationality: Australia
 Facts Found 

1.      Yellow (15 ft) (Y), Blue (20 ft) (B), Green (40 ft) (G) and Red (40 ft) (R) were sailing downwind on port tack approaching a mark to be rounded to port. 

2.      When Y reached the zone defined by her hull length: 

(a)    B was overlapped to leeward of Y by less than half a hull length and 10 ft apart. 

(b)   G was overlapped to leeward of B by less than half a hull length and 10 ft apart. 

(c)    R was overlapped to leeward of G by less than half a hull length and 20 ft apart. 

3.      While Y was sailing to the mark there was contact between Y and B. 

[Further facts and consideration of RRS 14 omitted.] 

4.      B reached the zone defined by her hull length overlapped to leeward of G by less than half a hull length and 10 ft apart. 

5.      While B was sailing to the mark there was contact between B and G. 

[Further facts and consideration of RRS 14 omitted.] 

6.      G reached the zone defined by her hull length with her bow ahead of R. 

7.      While G was sailing to the mark there was contact between G and R. 

[Further facts and consideration of RRS 14 omitted.} 

Conclusions 

A.     Y overlapped to windward did not keep clear of B on the same tack. Y broke RRS 11. 

B.     B, overlapped outside Y at the zone did not give Y mark-room. B broke RRS 18.2(a)(1). 

C.      Y, sailing within the mark-room to which she was entitled is exonerated for breaking RRS 11 by RRS 43.1(b) 

D.     B overlapped to windward did not keep clear of G on the same tack. B broke RRS 11. 

E.      G, overlapped outside B at the zone did not give B mark-room. G broke RRS 18.2(a)(1). 

F.      B, sailing within the mark-room to which she was entitled is exonerated for breaking RRS 11 by RRS 43.1(b) 

[Given the initial gaps between boats, I am not prepared to conclude that G, by not giving B mark-room compelled B to not give mark-room to Y]. 

G.     G overlapped to windward did not keep clear of R on the same tack. G broke RRS 11. 

H.     There was reasonable doubt whether G broke the overlap between her and R when G reached the zone defined by her hull length, in accordance with RRS 18.2(3) it is presumed that she did not do so. 

I.       R overlapped outside G at the zone did not give G mark-room. R broke RRS 18.2(a)(1). 

J.       G sailing within the mark-room to which she was entitled is exonerated for breaking RRS 11 by RRS 43.1(b) 

[Given the initial gaps between boats, I am not prepared to conclude that G, by not giving B mark-room compelled B to not give mark-room to Y]. 

Summary of Conclusions 

1.      G, B and Y each broke RRS 11 but are exonerated because they were sailing within the mark-room to which they were entitled. 

2.      B, G and R each broke RRS 18.2(a)(1) and are not exonerated. 

3.      B and G are not exonerated for breaking RRS 18.2(a)(1) by RRS 43.1(a) because they were not compelled to do so by the boat outside them not giving them mark-room). 

Decision 

Blue, Green and Red are disqualified. 

Created: 26-Mar-11 00:02
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John Allan
Nationality: Australia
I was being a bit lazy about RRS 14.

Here are some more facts and conclusions

Assuming there was no injury or damage.

Facts

3A.  There was ample space to windward of Y.


Conclusions

C1.  Y did not avoid contact with B when it was reasonably possible for her, acting no sooner than it was clear that B was not giving mark-room, to do so. Y broke RRS 14.
C2.  Y, sailing within the mark-room to which she was entitled, and contact not causing any damage or injury, is exonerated for breaking RRS 14 by RRS 43.1(c).
C3.  B did not avoid contact with Y when it was reasonably possible for her, acting no sooner than it was clear that Y was not keeping clear, to do so. Y broke RRS 14.
C4.  B, a right of way boat, and contact not causing any damage or injury, is exonerated for breaking RRS 14 by RRS 43.1(c).

F1.  It was not reasonably possible for B acting no sooner than it was clear that G was not giving mark-room, to avoid contact with G.  B did not break RRS 14 with respect to G.
F2.  G did not avoid contact with B when it was reasonably possible for her, acting no sooner than it was clear that B was not keeping clear, to do so. Y broke RRS 14.
F3.  G, a right of way boat, and contact not causing any damage or injury, is exonerated for breaking RRS 14 with respect to G by RRS 43.1(c).

J1.   It was not reasonably possible for G acting no sooner than it was clear that R was not giving mark-room, to avoid contact with R.  G did not break RRS 14 with respect to R.
F2.  R did not avoid contact with G when it was reasonably possible for her, acting no sooner than it was clear that G was not keeping clear, to do so. R broke RRS 14.
C4.  R, a right of way boat, and contact not causing any damage or injury, is exonerated for breaking RRS 14 with respect to G by RRS 43.1(c).

Summary

Boats Y and B.

Both boats broke RRS 14 but both boats are exonerated because there was no injury or damage and each one was either a right of way boat or sailing within the mark-room to which she was entitled.

Boats B and G

B did not break RRS 14 with respect to G.

G broke RRS 14 but is exonerated because there was no injury or damage and she was a right of way boat.

Boats G and R

G did not break RRS 14 with respect to R.

R broke RRS 14  but is exonerated because there was no injury or damage and she was a right of way boat. 
Created: 26-Mar-11 01:27
Andrew Lesslie
Thank you John.  Very much appreciated.
Created: 26-Mar-11 00:33
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