That is the right answer. And if you put Blue on the other side of White, they both are leeward boats per the definitions and they both are required to keep clear of the other.
The interesting thing is that most people would say that in position 1, Blue is the windward boat, because they are to windward or upwind of White. The italics here are important to distinguish between the RRS defined term and the dictionary defined term. But Blue is not on White's windward side, rather Blue is upwind of White.
Take a look at Match Racing Call B10 for another look at this scenario.
I belive we go back to the last point of certanty, when we can see who was give way. That is usually blue before she bore off or gybed. She is definitely at risk.
Michael - Unfortunately, in the fleet racing rules, we don't have the concept of last point of certainty as a general concept. It does appear in 18.2(e) but not in general.
Suppose Blue was clear ahead before she bore off to this course, perhaps because she went around a mark. Yes, they would be on different legs, but probably sailing their proper courses, so no RRS 23.2.
And if you put Blue on the other side of White, they both are leeward boats per the definitions and they both are required to keep clear of the other.
John, The definition is “When two boats on the same tack overlap, the one on the leeward side of the other is the leeward boat. The other is the windward boat.” As they are both on the leeward side of the other they are both right-of-way and keep clear at the same time
And if you put Blue on the other side of White, they both are leeward boats per the definitions and they both are required to keep clear of the other.
John, The definition is “When two boats on the same tack overlap, the one on the leeward side of the other is the leeward boat. The other is the windward boat.” As they are both on the leeward side of the other they are both right-of-way and keep clear at the same time
And if you put Blue on the other side of White, they both are leeward boats per the definitions and they both are required to keep clear of the other.
John, The definition is “When two boats on the same tack overlap, the one on the leeward side of the other is the leeward boat. The other is the windward boat.” As they are both on the leeward side of the other they are both right-of-way and keep clear at the same time
And if you put Blue on the other side of White, they both are leeward boats per the definitions and they both are required to keep clear of the other.
John, The definition is “When two boats on the same tack overlap, the one on the leeward side of the other is the leeward boat. The other is the windward boat.” As they are both on the leeward side of the other they are both right-of-way and keep clear at the same time
And if you put Blue on the other side of White, they both are leeward boats per the definitions and they both are required to keep clear of the other.
John, The definition is “When two boats on the same tack overlap, the one on the leeward side of the other is the leeward boat. The other is the windward boat.” As they are both on the leeward side of the other they are both right-of-way and keep clear at the same time
And if you put Blue on the other side of White, they both are leeward boats per the definitions and they both are required to keep clear of the other.
John, The definition is “When two boats on the same tack overlap, the one on the leeward side of the other is the leeward boat. The other is the windward boat.” As they are both on the leeward side of the other they are both right-of-way and keep clear at the same time
And if you put Blue on the other side of White, they both are leeward boats per the definitions and they both are required to keep clear of the other.
John, The definition is “When two boats on the same tack overlap, the one on the leeward side of the other is the leeward boat. The other is the windward boat.” As they are both on the leeward side of the other they are both right-of-way and keep clear at the same time
And if you put Blue on the other side of White, they both are leeward boats per the definitions and they both are required to keep clear of the other.
John, The definition is “When two boats on the same tack overlap, the one on the leeward side of the other is the leeward boat. The other is the windward boat.” As they are both on the leeward side of the other they are both right-of-way and keep clear at the same time
And if you put Blue on the other side of White, they both are leeward boats per the definitions and they both are required to keep clear of the other.
John, The definition is “When two boats on the same tack overlap, the one on the leeward side of the other is the leeward boat. The other is the windward boat.” As they are both on the leeward side of the other they are both right-of-way and keep clear at the same time
John, And if you put Blue on the other side of White, they both are leeward boats per the definitions and they both are required to keep clear of the other.
John, The definition is “When two boats on the same tack overlap, the one on the leeward side of the other is the leeward boat. The other is the windward boat.” As they are both on the leeward side of the other they are both right-of-way and keep clear at the same time
Mark - obviously, my wording was not the best. From each boat's perspective, they each believe they are on the other boat's leeward side, and, therefore, the right of way boat, and that, not being a leeward boat, the other boat is, therefore, a windward boat and required to keep clear of them. The answer all depends on where you are sitting. And if you are not on either boat it's really only 16 and 14 that keeps them apart.
I remember this scenario! Has anything changed in in the current quad though? Can't think of anything off the top of my head especially if they were both holding course (initially)
Yes, sometimes it seems like we have lots of different ways of playing the same game.
I recall having heard that there was a proposal to add the last point of certainty rule from match racing to the fleet racing rules but I don't know what became of that. Perhaps the rule writers decided it wasn't needed or might cause confusion.
IMHO: In this scenario, while fleetracing Rule 11 does not apply as both are Windward. Rule 12 does not apply a both in X2/Y2 are clear ahead of eachother. If neither one is changing course and both are sailing a straight line then Rule 16 does not apply. Rule 14 does apply, boats have to avoid collision/contact. In a protest situation that brings the situation to the last clearly established right-of-way relationship, plus Rule 14. Suppose White X has rounded a downwind mark, ahead of boat Y while properly following the race course, the the last situation with RoW can be determined as X was sailing clear ahead of Y and had RoW (R12). That may lead to a protest decision where in the situation X2 Y2 when boats meet that X has Right of Way...... based on the last established realtionship before it became "messy"...
Correct? Although it is an awkward situation, but does happen every once in a while....
Well it's just an oddity that they are the same "tack" but neither boat is overtaking the other from astern so none of the usual suspect rules apply at the moment of the incident or just prior too really. Since Just before and just after one of the two boats is windward, but they aren't overlapped at that time so again doesn't apply. It's contrived but possible. I didn't see anything in the latest rules that changes the answer provided.
Well it's just an oddity that they are the same "tack" but neither boat is overtaking the other from astern so none of the usual suspect rules apply at the moment of the incident or just prior too really. Since Just before and just after one of the two boats is windward, but they aren't overlapped at that time so again doesn't apply. It's contrived but possible. I didn't see anything in the latest rules that changes the answer provided.
The problem, as I see it, is linguistic, not legal. Under the definitions, overlap can be mutual, but leeward/windward cannot be mutual. Therefore, only one boat has the right of way under Rule 11. The other must keep clear.
The interesting thing is that most people would say that in position 1, Blue is the windward boat, because they are to windward or upwind of White. The italics here are important to distinguish between the RRS defined term and the dictionary defined term. But Blue is not on White's windward side, rather Blue is upwind of White.
Take a look at Match Racing Call B10 for another look at this scenario.
That is usually blue before she bore off or gybed.
She is definitely at risk.
Suppose Blue was clear ahead before she bore off to this course, perhaps because she went around a mark. Yes, they would be on different legs, but probably sailing their proper courses, so no RRS 23.2.
John, The definition is “When two boats on the same tack overlap, the one on the leeward side of the other is the leeward boat. The other is the windward boat.” As they are both on the leeward side of the other they are both right-of-way and keep clear at the same time
John, The definition is “When two boats on the same tack overlap, the one on the leeward side of the other is the leeward boat. The other is the windward boat.” As they are both on the leeward side of the other they are both right-of-way and keep clear at the same time
John, The definition is “When two boats on the same tack overlap, the one on the leeward side of the other is the leeward boat. The other is the windward boat.” As they are both on the leeward side of the other they are both right-of-way and keep clear at the same time
John, The definition is “When two boats on the same tack overlap, the one on the leeward side of the other is the leeward boat. The other is the windward boat.” As they are both on the leeward side of the other they are both right-of-way and keep clear at the same time
John, The definition is “When two boats on the same tack overlap, the one on the leeward side of the other is the leeward boat. The other is the windward boat.” As they are both on the leeward side of the other they are both right-of-way and keep clear at the same time
John, The definition is “When two boats on the same tack overlap, the one on the leeward side of the other is the leeward boat. The other is the windward boat.” As they are both on the leeward side of the other they are both right-of-way and keep clear at the same time
John, The definition is “When two boats on the same tack overlap, the one on the leeward side of the other is the leeward boat. The other is the windward boat.” As they are both on the leeward side of the other they are both right-of-way and keep clear at the same time
John, The definition is “When two boats on the same tack overlap, the one on the leeward side of the other is the leeward boat. The other is the windward boat.” As they are both on the leeward side of the other they are both right-of-way and keep clear at the same time
John, The definition is “When two boats on the same tack overlap, the one on the leeward side of the other is the leeward boat. The other is the windward boat.” As they are both on the leeward side of the other they are both right-of-way and keep clear at the same time
John, The definition is “When two boats on the same tack overlap, the one on the leeward side of the other is the leeward boat. The other is the windward boat.” As they are both on the leeward side of the other they are both right-of-way and keep clear at the same time
So many different rules for the different discuplines. A problem in excelf.
I recall having heard that there was a proposal to add the last point of certainty rule from match racing to the fleet racing rules but I don't know what became of that. Perhaps the rule writers decided it wasn't needed or might cause confusion.
Click on the link and scroll down
https://www.ussailing.org/competition/rules-officiating/judges/
Suppose White X has rounded a downwind mark, ahead of boat Y while properly following the race course, the the last situation with RoW can be determined as X was sailing clear ahead of Y and had RoW (R12). That may lead to a protest decision where in the situation X2 Y2 when boats meet that X has Right of Way...... based on the last established realtionship before it became "messy"...
Correct? Although it is an awkward situation, but does happen every once in a while....