Under the Racing Rules of Sailing, two boats, Boat C and Boat T, are on a downwind leg heading to the finish line. Both boats are starboard tack. C is ahead and enters the zone first with T overlapped and slightly behind. Both are heading to the right of the pin end of the line which is on their right side of the line. Boat T is to the right of Boat C for the direction they are traveling and thus boat C is also the leeward boat. Both boats will have to gybe onto port to finish the race. (Diagram at bottom)
Questions: 1. Which boat is the inside boat and why?
2. Does Boat T have any rights when it gets to its port layline to gybe onto port and demand room from Boat C so that she can finish the course on Boat T's layline to the finishing mark or could Boat C just continue on starboard and only gybe when Boat C wanted, perhaps past Boat C's layline which would make it difficult for Boat T to finish without getting off the right of the pin and then gybing?
What happened was that Boat T got to its port layline to finish inside the pin end of the finish line, and Boat T gybed first and called out "gybing" and Boat C felt it also had to gybe to keep clear of Boat T. And then Boat T headed Boat C up and Boat C did not keep clear and Boat T called out a protest and Boat C did a circle. Boat T won the race. There was no subsequent protest
This question has been bouncing around our sailing club since the race last Sunday. One very knowledgeable rules authority stated: >>>
“Inside” and “outside” refers to the positions of the boats as if they were rounding or passing the mark.
In your example, T is the “inside” boat because she is on the starboard side of C, and they are leaving the mark to starboard. Therefore, T is the “inside” boat and entitled to mark-room.
>>>
Mr. C, the skipper of boat C, finds this unconvincing stating that he was closer to the pin when they entered the zone, and that although T would be inside boat if they both gybed they hadn't yet gybed. He further states if C did not gybe and instead continued on starboard tack past the port tack layline, to say point G and then gybed, T would be clear astern.
RRS Section C Preamble only switches off RRS 18 at starting marks. RRS 18 Mark-Room applies at finishing marks.
At the boats' positions shown in the diagram, boats are at or just past the boundary of the zone, and apparently were overlapped when the first of them reached the zone. RRS 18.2(a)(1) applies.
Does Boat T have any rights at this point to gybe onto port and demand room from Boat C so that she can finish the course
C, overlapped outside, is required to give T mark-room. That is room to sail (directly) to the mark.
on Boat T's layline to the finishing mark or on Boat T's proper course
I think T can stand on on starboard until she reaches the port tack layline to the mark then gybe, and C is required to give her room to sail to the mark from there.
or could Boat C just continue on starboard and only gybe when Boat C wanted, perhaps past Boat C's layline which would make it difficult for Boat T to finish without getting off the right of the pin and then gybing?
No, if C wanted to drive T away from the mark, she would need to do that before either of them reached the zone: she would be quite entitled to do that.
John re: "No, if C wanted to drive T away from the mark, she would need to do that before either of them reached the zone: she would be quite entitled to do that."
Only if RRS 17 did not apply. If it did apply C could not sail past C's layline to gybe and finish.
Yes, this is clearly the answer, from my local expert and yourself. Thank you for the clear explanation.
The issue is to recognize that to determine inside boat you have to project ahead, after the gybe, to how the boats will finish. Our mark room situations are generally with marks to be passed on the left and inside boat is more straightforward. We rarely have downwind finishes.
Related, I would think an upwind finish in which two overlapped boats on port are heading to finish on the pin end but need to tack to starboard to finish, the boat on the right would be entitled to mark room and to tack onto his starboard layline to the left side of the pin and the boat on the left would have to take to give that room.
I believe the diagram indicates that Boat C has crossed into the zone and they are overlapped. In the case they are overlapped in the zone, does how the overlap originate matter?
Alan re: "In the case they are overlapped in the zone, does how the overlap originate matter?"
If 17 applies, in this instance as soon as either boat reaches the zone, 17 still applies but it doesn't matter much .. as providing T mark-room is a bigger restriction on C than the proper course limit imposed by 17.
Once rule 17 applies, it continues to apply until overlap is broken or they separate by more than 2 BL's.
So before they reach the zone it matters a great deal as it limits the ability of C to drive T away from the mark. C would be limited to not sail above her proper course. Therefore, 17 would require C to gybe to the mark once she reached the layline for that gybe.
Absent 17 .. and being outside the zone .. C has no such restriction on her .. and she can drive T past the mark.
When X is overlapped on the same side of Y that they are required to leave the mark, then X is the inside boat.
2. Does Boat T have any rights when it gets to its port layline to gybe onto port and demand room from Boat C so that she can finish the course on Boat T's layline to the finishing mark
C, overlapped outside, is required to give T mark-room. That is room to sail (directly) to the mark.
or could Boat C just continue on starboard and only gybe when Boat C wanted, perhaps past Boat C's layline which would make it difficult for Boat T to finish without getting off the right of the pin and then gybing?
No, if C wanted to drive T away from the mark, she would need to do that before either of them reached the zone: she would be quite entitled to do that as long as she is not subject to a RRS 17 restriction.
What happened was that Boat T got to its port layline to finish inside the pin end of the finish line, and Boat T gybed first and called out "gybing" and Boat C felt it also had to gybe to keep clear of Boat T.
Well C was never required to keep clear of T. C was the right of way boat throughout: initially as leeward boat (RRS 11), then when T gybed onto port tack as the starboard tack boat (RRS 10). But C was required to give T mark-room, and as long as T was sailing within the mark-room to which she was entitled she was exonerated for breaking RRS 11 or 10 by RRS 43.1(b). C was also required to avoid contact with T under RRS 14.
And then Boat T headed Boat C up and Boat C did not keep clear and Boat T called out a protest and Boat C did a circle. Boat T won the race.
Well that's interesting. There are a couple of options.
After gybing, as long as T sails no higher than her course directly to the mark before C gybes, T is sailing within the mark-room to which she is entitled and C is giving her mark-room. After C gybes, if T then sails above her course to the mark, she, as the leeward right of way boat is entitled to do that and C is required to keep clear of her.
OTOH, if, after gybing, T, now on port, sails any course higher than her course directly to the mark, she is no longer sailing within the mark-room t which she is entitled and if C, still on starboard, needs to take any action to avoid T (such as gybing), T, on port, has not kept clear and is not exonerated because she is not sailing within the mark-room to which she is entitled.
Seemingly Alan, and C are not claiming that T came out of her gybe any higher than her course to the mark.
This question has been bouncing around our sailing club since the race last Sunday. One very knowledgeable rules authority stated: >>> “Inside” and “outside” refers to the positions of the boats as if they were rounding or passing the mark. In your example, T is the “inside” boat because she is on the starboard side of C, and they are leaving the mark to starboard. Therefore, T is the “inside” boat and entitled to mark-room. >>>
Yup, that fits in with the other thread discussion mentioned above.
Mr. C, the skipper of boat C, finds this unconvincing stating that he was closer to the pin when they entered the zone, and that although T would be inside boat if they both gybed they hadn't yet gybed. He further states
Hmm
if C did not gybe and instead continued on starboard tack past the port tack layline, to say point G and then gybed, T would be clear astern.
If C stood on towards Point G, then she would not be giving T her mark-room to sail to the mark, and C would break RRS 18.2(a)(1).
I believed 18.4 comes into play. The inside ROW boat must sail her Proper Course, so sailing past the port tack layline would not be her proper course.
Here are some answers.
RRS Section C Preamble only switches off RRS 18 at starting marks. RRS 18 Mark-Room applies at finishing marks.
At the boats' positions shown in the diagram, boats are at or just past the boundary of the zone, and apparently were overlapped when the first of them reached the zone. RRS 18.2(a)(1) applies.
I think T can stand on on starboard until she reaches the port tack layline to the mark then gybe, and C is required to give her room to sail to the mark from there.
No, if C wanted to drive T away from the mark, she would need to do that before either of them reached the zone: she would be quite entitled to do that.
Only if RRS 17 did not apply. If it did apply C could not sail past C's layline to gybe and finish.
The issue is to recognize that to determine inside boat you have to project ahead, after the gybe, to how the boats will finish. Our mark room situations are generally with marks to be passed on the left and inside boat is more straightforward. We rarely have downwind finishes.
Related, I would think an upwind finish in which two overlapped boats on port are heading to finish on the pin end but need to tack to starboard to finish, the boat on the right would be entitled to mark room and to tack onto his starboard layline to the left side of the pin and the boat on the left would have to take to give that room.
If 17 applies, in this instance as soon as either boat reaches the zone, 17 still applies but it doesn't matter much .. as providing T mark-room is a bigger restriction on C than the proper course limit imposed by 17.
Once rule 17 applies, it continues to apply until overlap is broken or they separate by more than 2 BL's.
So before they reach the zone it matters a great deal as it limits the ability of C to drive T away from the mark. C would be limited to not sail above her proper course. Therefore, 17 would require C to gybe to the mark once she reached the layline for that gybe.
Absent 17 .. and being outside the zone .. C has no such restriction on her .. and she can drive T past the mark.
But in what way would 'how the overlap originated' make any difference?
You're right, but see my previous comment in the otehr thread.
OP Scenario didn't say RRS 17 applied: I'm taking it that it didn't.
We recently had an extensive discussion about this in this thread Which is the the outside boat ?
I really liked this way of putting it:
When X is overlapped on the same side of Y that they are required to leave the mark, then X is the inside boat.
No, if C wanted to drive T away from the mark, she would need to do that before either of them reached the zone: she would be quite entitled to do that as long as she is not subject to a RRS 17 restriction.
Well that's interesting. There are a couple of options.
After gybing, as long as T sails no higher than her course directly to the mark before C gybes, T is sailing within the mark-room to which she is entitled and C is giving her mark-room. After C gybes, if T then sails above her course to the mark, she, as the leeward right of way boat is entitled to do that and C is required to keep clear of her.
OTOH, if, after gybing, T, now on port, sails any course higher than her course directly to the mark, she is no longer sailing within the mark-room t which she is entitled and if C, still on starboard, needs to take any action to avoid T (such as gybing), T, on port, has not kept clear and is not exonerated because she is not sailing within the mark-room to which she is entitled.
Seemingly Alan, and C are not claiming that T came out of her gybe any higher than her course to the mark.
Yup, that fits in with the other thread discussion mentioned above.
If C stood on towards Point G, then she would not be giving T her mark-room to sail to the mark, and C would break RRS 18.2(a)(1).