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The Racing Rules of Sailing

No Flag No Foul

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John Allan
Nationality: Australia
Certifications:
  • National Race Officer
  • National Judge
In another post I said I would quite like to see the construct of RRS 44 changed so that time for a boat to take an on-water penalty ran from the hail of 'protest'."

Tentatively, the change would be to replace 'the incident' in RRS 44.2 and 44.3 with 'the hail of "protest" and, if required, the display of a red flag'

What I had in mind (with some trepidation) was moving towards a 'No Flag No Foul' approach.

If there is no hail of 'protest' and if required display of red flag at the first reasonable opportunity, I am proposing that the there should be no obligation on a boat to take a RRS 44 penalty.

If there is no  If there is no hail of 'protest' and if required display of red flag at the first reasonable opportunity there can be no valid protest and no hearing.

I think it is fair and just to say that a boat should not be required to voluntarily take a penalty when there is no power to give an involuntary penalty.

Maybe an interpretation of 'promptly take an appropriate penalty' would be needed as follows:

A boat may promptly take an appropriate penalty by:
  1. taking a penalty in accordance with RRS 44;
  2. taking a post-race penalty in accordance with RRS T1;  or
  3. accepting, subject to any request for re-opening or Appeal, the decision of a protest committee penalising her.
Created: Today 00:12

Comments

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Angelo Guarino
Forum Moderator
Nationality: United States
Certifications:
  • Regional Judge
John .. all this is adjustable by NOR/SI.  Maybe a first step is to formulate NOR/SI language and try to convince some "Beer Cans" to adopt them and see how it goes.  

I predict 'Mad Max Thunderdome' in very short order. 
Created: Today 00:17
Doug McKnight
Nationality: United States
Certifications:
  • Regional Judge
  • Club Race Officer
If there is no hail of 'protest' and if required display of red flag at the first reasonable opportunity, I am proposing that the there should be no obligation on a boat to take a RRS 44 penalty.

How does that fit with Basic Principles ?
Created: Today 01:58
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John Allan
Nationality: Australia
Certifications:
  • National Race Officer
  • National Judge
Doug, How does that fit with Basic Principles ?

See the suggested interpretation of 'promptly take an appropriate penalty'.
Created: Today 02:02
Reply to: 21879 - John Allan
I agree. My view is that the RRS require compliance with the rules without a competitor pointing it out. 
Created: Today 02:08
I don't think that's a good idea... I sail dinghy's that do not require flags with sailors that don't wear their hearing aids on the water.
Created: Today 02:23
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John Allan
Nationality: Australia
Certifications:
  • National Race Officer
  • National Judge
Thanks Timothy, really interested in practical problems.
Created: Today 02:26
Didier Greze
Nationality: France
Certifications:
  • National Umpire
  • National Judge
Î’m rather disapointed  with that. Our sport is based on fair Sailing. So if a boat thinks she may have infreaged a Rule she takes the appropriate penalty. That’s it, Now just an instance a boat wthout any other boats closed to her hits a mark other boats are very far away so far quite impossible to see any red flag. If we agree with te proposal no flag no foul. Is that kind of Sailing we want? sorry but not for me definitively. And what about the exoneration for red flag due damage or injury? 
I remember a case during the Fastnet some years ago. We had a RRS 14 hearing the protestor had very serious damages obliged to sail back to Cowes (incident taking place just after the start) 
Questions to the protestee: 
«jury - did you see the serious damages on the other boat after the contacte?  
Boat - yes
Jury - what didn’t you retire
Boat - the other boat didn’t sink »
Game over 😇

Created: Today 03:21
" What I had in mind (with some trepidation) was moving towards a 'No Flag No Foul' approach.

If there is no hail of 'protest' and if required display of red flag at the first reasonable opportunity, I am proposing that the there should be no obligation on a boat to take a RRS 44 penalty. "

My old sailing sailing mentor - Paul Elvstrøm would be doing 360's in his grave if he heard your proposal............

I think this would be a very big step in the wrong direction 
Created: Today 03:29
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John Allan
Nationality: Australia
Certifications:
  • National Race Officer
  • National Judge
Didier said:

Î’m rather disapointed  with that. Our sport is based on fair Sailing.

Exactly how do you think the suggestion is not fair?

It's exactly what we do in Match Racing.  Are you suggesting that Match Racing isn't fair?
Created: Today 05:05
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John Allan
Nationality: Australia
Certifications:
  • National Race Officer
  • National Judge
Didier said:
 
So if a boat thinks she may have infringed a Rule she takes the appropriate penalty. That’s it,

No, that's not it.

If a boat thinks she may have broken a rule, she may take a RRS 44 penalty (RRS 44.1).  RRS 44 does not require a boat to take an on-water penalty.

Now just an instance a boat wthout any other boats closed to her hits a mark other boats are very far away so far quite impossible to see any red flag. If we agree with te proposal no flag no foul.

In this situation, if other boats are so far away from the mark that they cannot see whether a boat touches it or not, how does whether she takes a penalty or not affect the outcome of the race?

 Is that kind of Sailing we want? sorry but not for me definitively.


 And what about the exoneration for red flag due damage or injury? 

OK, maybe the thread title was a little bit glib and possibly misleading.  I'm not suggesting that somehow if there is no hail and flag then no rule has actually been broken.  What is suggested is that a boat is not required to take a RRS 44 penalty.

Part of the justification for that suggestion is that in most cases, without a hail and flag, there can be no valid protest and a protest committee could not penalise the boat.

In the case of injury or serious damaged:
  • RRS 44.1(b) requires the boat breaking the rule to retire, and
  • in those circumstances hail and flag are not requirements for a valid protest and a protest committee can appropriately penalise the boat in a protest hearing.

I remember a case during the Fastnet some years ago. We had a RRS 14 hearing the protestor had very serious damages obliged to sail back to Cowes (incident taking place just after the start) 
Questions to the protestee: 
«jury - did you see the serious damages on the other boat after the contacte?  
Boat - yes
Jury - what didn’t you retire
Boat - the other boat didn’t sink »
Game over 😇 

So, there was serious damage, there was a valid protest and the boat was penalises.

That's exactly how we all know the rules work. 
Created: Today 05:05
Capt Tribhuwan Jaiswal
Nationality: India
Certifications:
  • International Judge
  • National Race Officer
We all know sailing is a "self-policing sport" and the basic principle obliges a sailor to take appropriate penalty for breach of a rule. This in my opinion is a very unique and inspiring feature of sailing as a sport which probably no other sport can boast of. 

Whist taking rules classes I lay a lot of stress on this self -enforcing aspect for fair play. Most parents of young sailors often agree on the impact this particular aspect can have on a young individual's personality development. 

The suggestion of "no flag no penalty" would lead to diminishing this spirit of self-policing by the sailors and thus affect the "fair play and the sportsman spirit".

To me it is definitely a thought leading in the wrong direction
Created: Today 05:27
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John Quirk
Nationality: New Zealand
Certifications:
  • National Judge
  • Judge In Training
An interesting initiative: sailors self-policing more out on the racetrack and a given boat can decide whether they are really affected by another offending boat or not (if so, raise flag, hail and perhaps also use whistles); and cuts down a bit on organisation staffing. Some sort of equivalency already also: boat breaks a rule, boat protests but protest gets quashed by the Jury as no flag or hail or late getting the protest submitted etc.
Perhaps viable for social racing like twilight racing and club social regattas etc - we have one such regatta coming up here soon and will see if the OA is interested in 'trialing' this approach (NOR/SI language) and just gauge how it goes. Above that local level of racing, I would think that the current RRS stands, for the reasons given.
Created: Today 05:45
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