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Race Committee & Race Management

I Flag Start, When must Flag X be displayed

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John Allan
Nationality: Australia
Certifications:
  • National Race Officer
  • National Judge
RRS 29.1 states

29.1 Individual Recall
When at a boat’s starting signal any part of her hull is on the course side of the starting line or she must comply with rule 30.1, the race committee shall promptly display flag X with one sound.

RRS 30.1 states

30.1 I Flag Rule
If flag I has been displayed, and any part of a boat’s hull is on the course side of the starting line or one of its extensions during the last minute before her starting signal, she shall sail across an extension so that her hull is completely on the pre-start side before she starts.


With an I flag start, if the race committee observes a boat on the course side of the starting line or its extensions after the 1 minute signal but before the starting signal, when must the race committee display the I flag?
Created: Today 09:56

Comments

Format:
Nick Hutton
Nationality: Australia
Certifications:
  • International Race Officer
First, assuming you mean 29.1 in the header not 28.1? RRS 29.1 is clear that the X Ray and additional sound is at the start signal. A competitor in breach of 30.1 has until the start to cross an extension so the RC does not have to display X Ray until the start signal arrives and the competitor has not exonerated him/herself. If the competitor crosses the starting line within the last minute before the start and returns to the pre-start side via an extension in the last minute no signal required. 
Supplementary question: Who uses India and why? 
Created: Today 10:22
Anthony Mercurio
Certifications:
  • Club Race Officer
  • Judge In Training
Agree. 
Created: Today 10:24
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John Allan
Nationality: Australia
Certifications:
  • National Race Officer
  • National Judge
Nick,  First, thanks for the correction to the rule reference.  Corrected in OP.

I don't think that 'RRS 29.1 is clear that the X Ray and additional sound is at the start signal' when Flag I is displayed.  Otherwise I wouldn't have asked the question.

It appears to me that a boat's obligation to comply with RRS 30.1 and sail back across an extension, begins at the time the race committee observes her on the course side, and RRS 29.1 provides that 'When ... [a boat] must comply with RRS 30.1 the race committee shall promptly display Flag X ... .
Created: Today 10:33
Walter Stemberger
Nationality: Croatia
Certifications:
  • National Race Officer
  • National Judge
Reply to: 21933 - John Allan
The rules are clear defining "When": at starting signal.
On I flag, the RC committee has to react also on boats over the extensions.
Created: Today 11:10
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Angelo Guarino
Forum Moderator
Nationality: United States
Certifications:
  • Regional Judge
Reply to: 21933 - John Allan
Walter .. "The rules are clear ..."

Not so fast .. John's got a point.  Here is 29.1 separated to make John's question  clearer. 

29.1 Individual Recall
When at a boat’s starting signal any part of her hull is on the course side of the starting line 

or 

she must comply with rule 30.1, 

the race committee shall promptly display flag X with one sound.

The above can be easily read in such a way that as soon as ("when") a boat must comply with 30.1, the RC shall signal.  

The way we customarily read 29.1 is as if it it said ... 

29.1 Individual Recall
When
at a boat’s starting signal any part of her [a boat's] hull is on the course side of the starting line [at the starting signal,] or she must comply with rule 30.1, the race committee shall promptly display flag X with one sound [at the starting signal]. 

.. but that's not what's written. 
Created: Today 11:48
Anthony Mercurio
Certifications:
  • Club Race Officer
  • Judge In Training
Agree, don't know how you can ignore "when at a boat's starting signal".  Maybe the question being asked it slightly different than written.  That is, if a boat has failed to comply with 30.1 should the RC fly X Ray after her starting signal.  I think the answer to this question is yes if she has failed to comply with 30.1 at the starting signal then the X flag should be flown at the starting signal until she does. 
Created: Today 12:00
Nick Hutton
Nationality: Australia
Certifications:
  • International Race Officer
Hands up who genuinely thinks the X-ray is to  be displayed at any other time than at the start signal. This does not include you Ang because I love how need you to be contrary to keep the argument going. 😊 My point remains. The sailor has until the start signal to comply. The sailor can sit above the  line as long as they like, provided they cross an extension  to the prestart side of the line before starting. If the sailor does not comply at that time the RC makes the sound signal and displays X-Ray. Anything else and we have X-Rays going up and down like window blinds and a cacophony of unnecessary sound signals that confuse more than they inform. And PS it never happens. So everyone - everyone - reads it the same way. 
Created: Today 12:01
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Angelo Guarino
Forum Moderator
Nationality: United States
Certifications:
  • Regional Judge
Nick ... I'm not being contrary just for the sake of it.  It's a genuine observation (of John's point). 

In the original 29.1, there is only 1 "or" and only 1 comma. 

That one comma makes everything before it one phrase.  The "or" is in the middle of that phrase. 

The first phrase sets 2 test conditions separated by the "or".   "or" works such that if either condition is true .. the statement is true (this is the same Boolean logic issue that screwed-up 3rd party protests in the current quad).

A boat must comply with 30.1 anytime in the last min they are OCS.  That makes the "or-statement" true .. and that triggers the action in the 2nd 1/2 of 29.1 ("..the race committee shall promptly display flag X with one sound") because its timing is "when".  

It's simply not the clearest the way it's written.  Another option to make it clearer is.  

29.1 Individual Recall
The race committee shall promptly display flag X with one sound
at [after] the starting signal when:
(a) any part of a boat's hull is on the course side of the starting line at her starting signal , or
(b) she must comply with rule 30.1, 
Created: Today 12:16
Walter Stemberger
Nationality: Croatia
Certifications:
  • National Race Officer
  • National Judge
Leaving sailing and entering linguistics.
Keep it simple: What is the goal of X?

In race signals it is called "Individual recall" . Where is the meaning of the recall of a boat that (still) did not broke any rules? 

Why to display it differently on P or I?

So, change the wording if it is wrong. Patch the rules text. 

Disclaimer: not using I for years, just P,  U or black.

In P or I starts, there are usualy some/several boats over in the last minute. On I, usually behind the RC boat, waiting the last 20-30 sec to return back over the extension and start properly. No one broke the rules. 
You probably must, if you follow the rules on this way, bring up the X as you put down I.
Is this the meaning of X? 
Created: Today 12:33
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Anthony Pelletier
Nationality: United States
Certifications:
  • Club Judge
  • Club Race Officer
When a sentence can at least in principle be read two different ways, I generally decide to follow the one that isn't stupid. It is clear, certainly, that the prepositional clause "when at a boat’s starting signal," would normally be read to apply to both conditions in the "either-or" construct that follows. You could choose to read the "when at a boat’s starting signal " to apply to only the first of the either-or construct, and then apply the "when" but not the "at a boat's starting signal" to the second condition. But, that's pretty twisted and not the straightforward meaning. 
Moreover, consider the situation where a boat is over the line at 50 seconds, sails around the pin and back by 20 seconds before the start. If you choose the second interpretation, you raise the flag with a horn at 50 seconds with a horn, drop it again at 20, and maybe raise it again with a second horn if someone is OCS at the start. Confusing to say the least.
Why choose the version that results in a lot of unnecessary confusion when the simpler and more grammatically correct one does not? Adding more words including two separate paragraphs just for those who get wish to read a sentence in a non-standard way seems like a waste of space. 

Created: Today 15:26
Nick Hutton
Nationality: Australia
Certifications:
  • International Race Officer
An elegant response. Agree entirely. And with Walter Stemberger’s comment about not using I. No-one I know uses it hence my request to those who do to raise their hands. But not because I would need to be ceaselessly displaying and removing flags. It’s because it makes a mess of an otherwise sweetly set starting line. 
Created: Today 15:45
Walter Stemberger
Nationality: Croatia
Certifications:
  • National Race Officer
  • National Judge
As a sailor of a small keelboat, I can tell: every single horn out of the sequence 5-4-1-Start can build a mess in the line: in the crowd, between sails and on starboard tack, you cannot see easily the flags, risking a collision.
 
Created: Today 17:13
Tom Shenstone
Certifications:
  • Regional Race Officer
  • Club Race Officer
My bigger problem - what does I accomplish, in practice?  The line ought to be long enough that it wouldn't be to reduce congestion.  I suppose it could be to clear some potential miscreants out of the starting line, at the cost of increased general recall ( from missed initial identification) or redress (from missed return identification) potential , by sending them around the ends.  It's not much of a discipline, though, and not useful for larger fleets, say of 25, where there may be a lot to identify, leaving miscreants the impression that they can hide in the crowd, so I think U works better.  In Canada the use of I (and the use of Z, however pronounced) is rare.  We tend to go from P to U, and then to Black if we have to.
Created: Today 15:57
P
Anthony Pelletier
Nationality: United States
Certifications:
  • Club Judge
  • Club Race Officer
A fair question. In High School sailing (which I coach) here on the West Coast of the US, we use the I flag frequently. It is usually written into the SIs as automatic after a general recall. 
You'll still see boats above the line at a minute (we'll generally hail them). They are not in a bad position, though, since they were intending to get out around one end or the other anyway. Putting up X-ray with a horn would be distracting and confusing. 
But in the final thirty seconds, the boats are generally set up a little farther from the line than without the I flag. It usually does make the fleet more well behaved. 
There are couple of important differences between the U and I flags, as I see it. First, under an I flag, being OCS at a minute is easily recoverable and may even be intentionally done as a way to get to the other end of the line in clear air and out of traffic. A U flag results in DSQ without hearing if you are OCS at a minute. In dinghy starts, a minute is a long time. 
But being OCS at 20 seconds is really going to screw you, while the other boats have no incentive to press the line. They know, especially if they hear your number called, that the fact you are bow out on them is not an issue. You will be out of their way and they are more content to hang back the proper distance from the line 

Created: Today 20:43
Mark Evans
Nationality: Canada
Certifications:
  • Club Judge
  • Club Race Officer
I believe that the original question is when is the flag displayed?
There are five different "Preparatory" flags that may be displayed at the 4 minute signal and removed at the one minute signal. (According to RRS 26 start)
Code Flag "P" or "I" or "Z" or  "Z with I" or "U" or "Black Flag".
Normally, races are started with the "P" however, the RC may decide to use any of these flags should the SI states "Starts will be in accordance with RRS 26".
Each flag has it's consequences where vessel are not in compliance. 
Created: Today 16:00
Tom Sollas
Nationality: United States
Certifications:
  • National Judge
By RRS 26, I flag goes up at 4, and comes down at 1. If a boat is on the course side of the line and her extensions, she must sail across an extension to the pre course side to clear herself.

This means  that line extends forever, technically you’re over that line if you’re above it and outside the extensions!

This means that if a boat has not cleared herself at the start (including being above the starting line at the extensions), she is OCS until she clears per 30.1, and X must be flown at the starting signal.

Edit to add: X stays up until all boats have cleared per 30.1, e.g. all boats have passed to the pre course side of the line and the extensions.
Created: Today 16:16
Nick Hutton
Nationality: Australia
Certifications:
  • International Race Officer
The question related to displaying the X flag - individual recall - not the Prep signal. 
Created: Today 16:17
Tom Sollas
Nationality: United States
Certifications:
  • National Judge
Right, as I explained above, to answer your question, X goes up at the start.
Created: Today 17:18
John Ball
Nationality: Canada
I think the wording of 29.1 is quite clear – the X flag is displayed after the starting signal in either of two conditions – any part of her hull is over the line OR she has to comply with 30.1. To me the intent of 29.1 is to raise the X flag after the starting signal and leave it raised until all identified boats have started properly. 

The suggestion to raise the X flag after the prep and before the starting signal if a boat breaks 30.1 could cause confusion if for example a second boat also breaks 30.1.

In Radio Sailing, we substitute a hail of “recall” and the offending boat’s sail number to replace the X flag, Here is an example. Watch this video and listen for the recall of #05. She did not appear to be over the line at the gun, so why was she recalled?  https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WsPSveCvQ-c

Look for the I flag flying (R30.1 in effect) right at the beginning of the clip? Then look at time stamp 37 seconds, where 05 drifts across the line and dips back. She crossed the line during the last minute but failed to come around one of the ends of the line before starting.

John

Created: Today 17:20
Philip Hubbell
Certifications:
  • Club Race Officer
  • Judge In Training
Read this way:
When, at a boat’s starting signal,
1. a boat is over the line, or
2. she must comply…
Created: Today 19:05
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