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Downwind Port Starboard
David Hoogenboom
Nationality: New Zealand
0
Can anyone advise what the rule situation is here. YELLOW boat is on Port Gybe sailing her proper course directly to the bottom mark.
BLUE boat is to leeward of YELLOW boat and is on Starboard Gybe. At position 1 BLUE boat is clear astern. At position 2 BLUE boat establishes an overlap.
At position 3 BLUE boat is sailing by the lee and claims Starboard rights on YELLOW. Yellow has maintained it's proper course throughout.
Can BLUE claim starboard rights in this situation. and force YELLOW to keep clear?.
Created: 20-Jun-07 22:01
Comments
P
Angelo Guarino
Certifications:
Regional Judge
Fleet Measurer
1
David, as an exercise, read closely and think about the last 2 sentences of the def Leeward and Windward and then reconsider how you describe the relationship of the boats.
Also, you use the term Proper Course. What rule are you applying in this instance that uses that term? What are the conditions where that rule applies?
Created: 20-Jun-07 22:12
Warren Collier
Certifications:
Umpire In Training
National Judge
Regional Race Officer
0
Similar to Angelo's comment - which of these rules apply in the situation when boats are on opposite tack? Rule 10, 11, 12, or 17? That should lead you quickly to a conclusion.
Created: 20-Jun-07 22:31
Tim Hohmann
Nationality: United States
Certifications:
Umpire In Training
Regional Judge
1
As an added exercise, does anything change when they get to the zone?
Created: 20-Jun-07 22:42
David Hoogenboom
Nationality: New Zealand
0
At position 3 both boats are to Leeward of each other. Prior to that I described the Blue boat as being to Leeward of Yellow to establish it's position in relation to Yellow although the use of the diagram makes it self explanatory. What I'm trying to establish is whether Blue has rights to claim Starboard on Blue given their relative positions. All downwind rules situations have the positions reversed (Blue on Port and Yellow on Starboard) to establish the port- starboard rules situation.
The use of Proper Course is as per the definition. Yellow is on Port sailing it's Proper Course directly to the Bottom Mark.
If both boats were on Port Gybe and Blue established an overlap from to Leeward and Astern then Blue has no rights to sail above it's Proper Course and Yellow cannot sail below it's Proper Course.
In this situation Blue has established an Overlap while on Starboard and is claiming it can sail any course it chooses.
What I want to know is can Blue claim Starboard in this situation and can it sail any course it chooses.
Created: 20-Jun-07 22:59
Warren Collier
Certifications:
Umpire In Training
National Judge
Regional Race Officer
0
David, in short - yes per Rule 10 Opposite Tacks with the limitations of Rule 16.1. None of the other rules (11, 12, 17) apply since they are on Opposite Tacks. The definitions only apply if the rule applies.
Created: 20-Jun-07 23:06
Tim Hohmann
Nationality: United States
Certifications:
Umpire In Training
Regional Judge
0
David:
1. Is a boat's proper course downwind always a straight line to the mark? (Hint - ask a skiff or sportboat sailor)
2. You're correct that if they were both on port Rule 17 would apply and Blue could not sail above her proper course (but recall question 1). What rule do you think requires Yellow not to sail below her proper course?
3. Read the title of Rule 17. Does it apply in the situation you depicted? Is either boat's proper course relevant to the situation?
Created: 20-Jun-07 23:37
Mark Townsend
Nationality: United States
Certifications:
International Race Officer
International Umpire
International Judge
0
Only one Part 2 Section A Right-of-Way rule can apply between two boats. As they are on opposite tacks rule 10 applies. Rule 17 On The Same Tack; Proper Course is a General Limitation rule in Part 2 Section B, as the boats are on opposite tacks, rule 17 does not apply. World Sailing Case 30 would be worth reading.
Created: 20-Jun-07 23:44
P
Angelo Guarino
Certifications:
Regional Judge
Fleet Measurer
3
David .. There are a couple things in your original post which are very, very common .. which is taking terms defined in the rules and applying them outside of where they can and should be applied. This is a subtle but important point .. and if I'm successful in getting you to see it then I've earned my cookie for the day (and I'm itching for a cookie .. been a long day) :-)
At position 3 both boats are to Leeward of each other.
The important point I was trying to make is that you are misusing the term Leeward.
Let's look at the definition .. (emphasis added)
Leeward and Windward
A boat's leeward side is the side that is or, when she is head to wind, was away from the wind. However, when sailing by the lee or directly downwind, her leeward side is the side on which her mainsail lies. The other side is her windward side. When two boats on the same tack overlap, the one on the leeward side of the other is the leeward boat. The other is the windward boat.
The terms Leeward and Windward when describing boats ONLY applies to boats on the same tack and overlapped. These 2 boats are on opposite tacks. There is no leeward or windward boat in this scenario. Yes, we have leeward and windward sides of boats .. but in your scenario there are no windward and leeward boats.
The use of Proper Course is as per the definition. Yellow is on Port sailing it's Proper Course directly to the Bottom Mark.
OK .. yes .. Proper Course is a term defined in the rules. But importantly .. it is only used in .. Mark-Room, 17, 18.1(b), 18.2(c)2, 18.4, 24.2
This is an important point. If none of those rules apply in your situation .. then there is no application of the term of Proper Course (in other words, PC doesn’t matter).
In your scenario we aren't around a mark .. so Mark Room and the 18.1, 18.2, 18.4 are gone. We aren't talking about "interfer[ing] with a boat that is taking a penalty, sailing on another leg or subject to rule 22.1." .. so rule 24.2 is out. The only rule left which might apply that uses Proper Course is rule 17, as we have a boat overtaking another from clear astern.
Let's look at rule 17 .. "17. ON THE SAME TACK; PROPER COURSE" .. Rule 17 doesn't apply because again they are on opposite tacks.
Therefore, there is no rule which applies the term "Proper Course" in your scenario .. so it's moot.
There is no leeward/windward boat .. there is no proper course, STB isn't altering course so 16 is out.
We are left with Rule 10 and 14.
Lemme know if I get that cookie!
Created: 20-Jun-08 01:04
Brent Draney
Nationality: United States
Certifications:
Judge In Training
0
Something to add as a racer perspective. At point 2 Yellow has the opportunity to jibe and become the inside and leeward boat. It is advantageous to wait until the boats are overlapped before executing the jibe to eliminate the possibility of blue changing sides for an inside overlap. Blue as a faster boat as evidenced from the picture would have to break overlap before 3 boatlengths from the mark and is unlikely to do so. By staying on port Yellow has no rights. A quick jibe to port gives her every right, most likely to the mark. Proper course has no impact on this situation at all and is an irrelevant mind trap.
Created: 20-Jun-08 06:49
Stewart Campbell
Nationality: Australia
0
Yes Angelo, you can have your biscuit. I usually recommend looking first at the labels which apply - ROW and KC. But, yes, ensuring that you haven't applied an inappropriate definition is right up there too.
Created: 20-Jun-08 11:02
Tim Hohmann
Nationality: United States
Certifications:
Umpire In Training
Regional Judge
0
Brent, assuming a port rounding Yellow is inside whether she gybes or not. Blue retains ROW (rule 10 if no gybe by Y, rule 11 if they're both on starboard). So Y must keep clear but when they get to the zone B must give Y mark room, which includes room to sail to the proper side of the mark.
Created: 20-Jun-08 20:57
Brent Draney
Nationality: United States
Certifications:
Judge In Training
0
Hi Tim. As drawn it is likely that Y is not keeping clear of B before the 3 boat length zone and B has control. B could jibe to port and luff Y as the leeward boat and take Y past the mark. Y is leaving themselves open to all manner of shenanigans by leaving B in control. I'm suggesting that the smart racing strategy for Y is to jibe into a Starboard Leeward position and take control until rule 18 turns on.
Created: 20-Jun-08 21:21
Tim Hohmann
Nationality: United States
Certifications:
Umpire In Training
Regional Judge
0
Brent, I agree that as drawn, it appears that Y would have to come up a bit to keep clear of B's boom in its normal position.
I can see your point that B could gybe, luff Y and potentially improve her position for the mark rounding. But B on port could only luff Y until one of them reached the zone and rule 18 turned on. At that point Y as inside boat is entitled to mark room so B must bear away and allow Y to sail to the mark (see definition of mark room and note that Y is still "inside" even if B winds up closer to the mark).
Y gybing onto starboard wouldn't really improve her situation. She'd go from port keep clear to windward keep clear, retain her entitlement to mark room and have to gybe again at the mark with B right on top of her. [ETA - oops, I missed on this. If Y gybes to starboard she becomes leeward ROW and inside boat - but she does line herself up for a close-quarters gybe at the mark]
I suppose B could luff so high that Y couldn't get to the zone and take her past the mark that way, but that seems like an unproductive strategy in anything but a match race.
Created: 20-Jun-08 21:55
David Hoogenboom
Nationality: New Zealand
0
Thanks to all for clarifying the rule in this situation. I've learnt a lot thru this exercise. I don't profess to be a judge, just a sailor although I thought I had a reasonable grasp of the rules. Clearly not. I assumed my use of Definitions to describe position and direction was correct however as you point out a Definition can only be used where it applies to a specific Rule. Something to remember if I every find myself in the Protest room again. In the absence of a specific example it was difficult to establish the applicable rule. All Port Starboard rule examples have the Starboard boat on the right and Port boat on the left both upwind and downwind. This situation is like describing 69 as a variant of the missionary position. Hard to visualise given all the equipment is in the wrong position and hard to achieve the desired result without one or the other or both parties having to heavily contort. For Blue to contort by sailing heavily by the Lee to create this rules situation came as a surprise. As has been pointed out it should have been countered by gybing however other factors in play including strong current and other boats made options limited. Thanks again and I'll spend more time on this site reviewing other posts to see how Judges apply the rules in different situations to improve my own rules understanding.
Created: 20-Jun-10 04:01
Dusan Vanicky
Nationality: Slovakia
Certifications:
International Judge
National Umpire
National Race Officer
1
David,
I read the discussion to follow how people deal with the problem.
Your last note, that you learned how judges apply the rule, kicked me to react.
Most of the advices have a teaching approach – showing what does and does not apply and why. They did not show directly the straight process of thinking of a judge.
Here is my description of the thinking/decision process, which takes almost no time in a real situation. ( One eliminates the non-applicable rules almost subconsciously and the mind follows the bold sequence. I hope it does the teaching part too.
1. Two racing boats on a free leg - ( go to Section A of Part 2 ) > RRS 10, 11, 12, 13)
That means also: eliminate from consideration rules, that apply only in special circumstances (section C and D of Part 2)
2. Collision (> RRS 14) between 2 boats on opposite tacks (> RRS 10) - (The PT boat broke the rule)
3. Checking the GENERAL LIMITATIONS (Section B of Part 2) > RRS 14, 15, 16, 17)
Has the ROW boat any additional obligations or limitations which she might brake and because of that eventually force the give way boat to brake RRS 10 ?
Does any of these rules apply here?
RRS 17 – NO > ( boats are not on the same tack)
RRS 16 – NO > ( RoW boat does not change course )
RRS 15 – NO> (RoW did not acquire her right of way „suddenly“ - they hold their tacks for a long time> SBtacker is RoW all the time),
RRS 14 – it applies always, but the decision process here is simple:
no damage > no problem for Right of way boat > exoneration for RoW boat, even if she did not avoid, or started to avoid later than it was clear.... (see the RRS 14 (b))
would damage from the collision occurred, then check if the RoW boat fulfilled her obligation according to 14 a) . If the RoW boat broke this rule and caused damage, she has to be penalized too.
Also, you use the term Proper Course. What rule are you applying in this instance that uses that term? What are the conditions where that rule applies?
The use of Proper Course is as per the definition. Yellow is on Port sailing it's Proper Course directly to the Bottom Mark.
If both boats were on Port Gybe and Blue established an overlap from to Leeward and Astern then Blue has no rights to sail above it's Proper Course and Yellow cannot sail below it's Proper Course.
In this situation Blue has established an Overlap while on Starboard and is claiming it can sail any course it chooses.
What I want to know is can Blue claim Starboard in this situation and can it sail any course it chooses.
None of the other rules (11, 12, 17) apply since they are on Opposite Tacks.
The definitions only apply if the rule applies.
1. Is a boat's proper course downwind always a straight line to the mark? (Hint - ask a skiff or sportboat sailor)
2. You're correct that if they were both on port Rule 17 would apply and Blue could not sail above her proper course (but recall question 1). What rule do you think requires Yellow not to sail below her proper course?
3. Read the title of Rule 17. Does it apply in the situation you depicted? Is either boat's proper course relevant to the situation?
The important point I was trying to make is that you are misusing the term Leeward.
Let's look at the definition .. (emphasis added)
The terms Leeward and Windward when describing boats ONLY applies to boats on the same tack and overlapped. These 2 boats are on opposite tacks. There is no leeward or windward boat in this scenario. Yes, we have leeward and windward sides of boats .. but in your scenario there are no windward and leeward boats.
OK .. yes .. Proper Course is a term defined in the rules. But importantly .. it is only used in .. Mark-Room, 17, 18.1(b), 18.2(c)2, 18.4, 24.2
This is an important point. If none of those rules apply in your situation .. then there is no application of the term of Proper Course (in other words, PC doesn’t matter).
In your scenario we aren't around a mark .. so Mark Room and the 18.1, 18.2, 18.4 are gone. We aren't talking about "interfer[ing] with a boat that is taking a penalty, sailing on another leg or subject to rule 22.1." .. so rule 24.2 is out. The only rule left which might apply that uses Proper Course is rule 17, as we have a boat overtaking another from clear astern.
Let's look at rule 17 .. "17. ON THE SAME TACK; PROPER COURSE" .. Rule 17 doesn't apply because again they are on opposite tacks.
Therefore, there is no rule which applies the term "Proper Course" in your scenario .. so it's moot.
There is no leeward/windward boat .. there is no proper course, STB isn't altering course so 16 is out.
We are left with Rule 10 and 14.
Lemme know if I get that cookie!
I agree that as drawn, it appears that Y would have to come up a bit to keep clear of B's boom in its normal position.
I can see your point that B could gybe, luff Y and potentially improve her position for the mark rounding. But B on port could only luff Y until one of them reached the zone and rule 18 turned on. At that point Y as inside boat is entitled to mark room so B must bear away and allow Y to sail to the mark (see definition of mark room and note that Y is still "inside" even if B winds up closer to the mark).
Y gybing onto starboard wouldn't really improve her situation. She'd go from port keep clear to
windward keep clear, retain her entitlement to mark room and have to gybe again at the mark with B right on top of her. [ETA - oops, I missed on this. If Y gybes to starboard she becomes leeward ROW and inside boat - but she does line herself up for a close-quarters gybe at the mark]I suppose B could luff so high that Y couldn't get to the zone and take her past the mark that way, but that seems like an unproductive strategy in anything but a match race.
In the absence of a specific example it was difficult to establish the applicable rule. All Port Starboard rule examples have the Starboard boat on the right and Port boat on the left both upwind and downwind. This situation is like describing 69 as a variant of the missionary position. Hard to visualise given all the equipment is in the wrong position and hard to achieve the desired result without one or the other or both parties having to heavily contort.
For Blue to contort by sailing heavily by the Lee to create this rules situation came as a surprise. As has been pointed out it should have been countered by gybing however other factors in play including strong current and other boats made options limited.
Thanks again and I'll spend more time on this site reviewing other posts to see how Judges apply the rules in different situations to improve my own rules understanding.
2. Collision (> RRS 14) between 2 boats on opposite tacks (> RRS 10) - (The PT boat broke the rule)
3. Checking the GENERAL LIMITATIONS (Section B of Part 2) > RRS 14, 15, 16, 17)
Dusan