Forum: The Racing Rules of Sailing
An unusual maneuver
Catalan Benaros
0
In position N°2 does rule 24 apply to Yellow ?
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In position N°2, Yellow has finishted ?
And here i have these two points:
1°) DEFINITION: Finish
A boat finishes when any part of her hull, or crew or equipment in normal position, crosses the finishing line from the course side.
However, she has not finished if after crossing the finishing line she (c) continues to sail the course.
2°) Rule 28...........After finishing she need not cross the finishing line completely.
For me, 16.2 aplies to Yellow
It could be argued that as Yellow has finished:
- she no longer has a proper course
- she is no longer sailing on a leg of the course. In which case she has an obligation not to interfere with the boat beating to the finish.
Yellow is on starboard, Green boats are on port, and are keep clear boats.
Yellow, RoW, changes course and must give the Green boats room to keep clear under rule 16.1. It looks very much as though Yellow has not given room to keep clear.
Gordon
If Y's choice of course is determined by wind, current, etc. then as long as she gives room to keep clear she's fine. In the diagram, it does look like Y would need to continue to bear away and pass astern of the green boats to give room.
Please, let me add only a minor comment. The yellow boat has finished but she is still racing according to the following two definitions:
Finish - A boat finishes when any part of her hull, or crew or equipment in normal position, crosses the finishing line from the course side. However, she has not finishedif after crossing the finishing line she(a)takes a penalty under rule 44.2, (b)corrects an error under rule 28.2made at the line, or (c)continues to sail the course.
Racing - A boat is racing from her preparatory signal until she finishesand clears the finishing line and marksor retires, or until the race committee signals a general recall, postponementor abandonment.
I hope this can help to clarify.
Anna
PS
The yellow duck is too nice! :)
On further consideration I think I take this comment back. If Y steadies on course at 2, both green boats could keep clear by tacking. They may or may not be able to make the pin and finish on starboard but it's not Y's obligation to allow them to do so.
But again I think Y would have to justify her course with some reason other than just mucking with the green boats and delaying their finishes.
Yellow breaks RRS24 if this is a finish line. If, as in the 2nd diagram , the P flag is up so they are racing and there is more than a minute till the start, Yellow is Stbd ROW boat and as long as she abides by RRS16 then the 2 green boats must keep clear.
So we're left with is it reasonably possible for Y to avoid interfering with the other boats. I think the answer would depend on wind and current. If it's a drifter with adverse current and Y just barely managed to poke her nose over the finish line, maybe not.
a)
Yellow has finished:
- she no longer has a proper course
- she is no longer sailing on a leg of the course.
b)
Yellow has not cleared the line,
- she is still racing
c)
16.1
When a right-of-way boat changes course, she shall give the other boat room to keep clear.
Yellow is on starboard, Green boats are on port, and are keep clear boats.
Yellow, RoW, changes course and must give the Green boats room to keep clear under rule 16.1.
It looks very much as though Yellow has not given room to keep clear.
d)
24.2
If reasonably possible, a boat shall not interfere with a boat that is sailing on another leg
Whether Y broke 24.2 to me still depends on whether it was reasonably possible (given wind, current, etc.) for Y to avoid interfering.
I think I'm onboard with the idea that if the green boats are sailing the final leg of the course and Y is sailing no leg after finishing, they can be regarded as being on "different legs"
Her course appears to be to get the green boats to tack and sail outside the finishing mark, so the mark is clearly influencing her choice of course. While the windward green boat could possibly tack and clear the mark, it appears to me fairly clear that once the leeward green boat has room to tack she would be sailing directly at the mark with little or no chance of avoiding it. Hitting a mark is unseamanlike, so Y definitely gets considered for Rule 2, on top of breaking 16.1 and 24.2. The only argument against Rule 2 would be if that course influences her position relative to one or other of the green boats in the race or series - though the unsportsmanlike manoeuvre forcing unseamanlike behaviour on the leeward green boat still stands.),
Then to break rule 24.2 we must conclude that "Yellow who was not sailing her proper course, interfered with Green who was sailing on another leg of the course."
I have two problems with concluding that Yellow broke rule 24.2.
Yellow has finished her leg of the course. Green has not. Therefore Yellow is not sailing on the same leg as Green. I'd argue the absence of a thing is a different thing when comparing it to the presence of a thing. They are different legs because they are not the same legs. It is a semantic hole to fall into for sure, but I could certainly see a PC using my logic above and an Appeals committee going along with it.
You've flipped the logic of the language in Rule 24.2. It states .. "However, after the starting signal this rule does not apply when the boat is sailing her proper course.". As you state, Yellow doesn't have a Proper Course, therefore she can't be sailing her proper course, therefore the rule applies to her. This sentence is an exclusion based on a test .. not an inclusion based on a requirement.
Ang
I think there's potential ambiguity in the pre-start situation (explicitly resolved by the definition), but no ambiguity in the after finishing situation so it doesn't need to be explicitly discussed in the definition.
Ant, I still disagree that it's entirely clear from the information given that it's Y's intent to interfere with the green boats, I'd need to know more. Suppose, for example, it's a light air day with current running from upper right to lower left in the diagram. Y just barely pokes her nose over the line to finish. To try to continue to windward she would risk being swept into the pin by the current, and a penalty turn and re-finish in those conditions would be disastrous. So it may not be reasonably possible for Y to avoid interfering with the green boats. I'd need to hear more about that to conclude that Y broke 24.2
Yellow was sailing a course to clear the finish line marks so is still on the last windward leg of the course.
Case 126 says For the purpose of determining whether rule 24.2 applies to an incident, a boat is sailing on the leg which is consistent with her course immediately before the incident and her reasons for sailing that course..
Case 127 says A boat clears the finishing line and marks when no part of her hull, crew or equipment is on the line, and no mark is influencing her choice of course. Until that occurs she is still on the last leg of the course.
If Yellow is still on the windward leg then she breaks rule 16.2.
The intent was not in the facts found.
Any move in that direction suggests bias and unsportsmanlike conduct of the jurors.
I think the investigation I'd want is more toward "was it reasonably possible for Y to avoid interfering?" The info given so far doesn't definitively establish that.
But I'd also say that if Y was foolish enough to say that she took that course in order to embarrass one or both green boats for her advantage, that expression of intent would settle 24.2 and potentially rule 2 for me.
Let's take stock on that which I think we agree ...
So, we are just down to the "leg issue" I think. I see clearing the finish-line as a separate and distinct element from sailing the leg. I see Proper Course and "sailing a leg" intertwined in that you are sailing from Point A to Point B. When clearing the line, a boat isn't sailing from A to B, but rather sailing away from something in any direction it wants. She could do a 180.. luff into the wind and let wind and current push her back .. or drive straight through.
All that said, I think you've got good arguments on your side.
Given the opinions stated in this thread that: (which I don't agree with)
You must conclude that "Yellow who was not sailing her proper course, interfered with Green who was sailing on another leg of the course. Yellow broke RRS 24.2." I disagree with this conclusion.
The definition says "A boat has no proper course before her starting signal" it is silent as to what happens after finishing.
But I'm OK with the idea that a boat remains on the last leg of the course after finishing, until she is no longer racing. Especially in light of your (very common) scenario above.
I agree, we don't have any knowledge about the intention of Y in sailing that course. But we don't have any facts found. All we can do is surmise on the balance of probability, that Y is 1) deliberately interfering with one or both green boats, or 2) going to continue to bear away, or 3) is behaving in an unseamanlike manner by choosing a course that makes the leeward green boat tack to hit the mark (my interpretation of the diagram).
So, all we are really doing is examining which rules might be relevant, based on the facts eventually found.
If we go with Mark's argument that she is sailing to clear the finish line and is still on the same leg then 16.1 applies.
Would anybody who is on a racing rules committee like to submit this to WS for an answer to whether Y is still on the same leg?
To analyze this, I would take the positions of the boats back 1/4 BL to the position [an instant before]
thatYellow’s bow touches the line. At that point she is sailing her PC and ROW.I could argue that at that moment, it is not reasonably possible to her to avoid interfering with the other boats. Her reasonable option is to continue on her current course as the closest boat is on a T-bone course 3/4 BL away.
How do you see this ?
Yellow has finished, is still RACING, has ROW for rule 10 and rule 19 aplies