You are correct.  Green (the boat being hailed) has to give Yellow (the hailing boat) enough room to avoid Green (her).  In your diagram Green clearly gives Yellow enough room so no rule is broken.

Catalan, you can see this in Case 35 - Ang

Thanks you so much John Christman

I keep thinking about the same case, let see......

N°3
rule 13 is on for Yellow

N°4
Rule 13 is over.
Rule 10 is on and for Yellow rule 15 is on

My question are at N°5

1°) Does Yellow breach rule 15 ?

Keep Clear:
A boat ( Green )  keeps clear of a right-of-way boat ( Yellow )
(a) if the right-of-way boat can sail her course with no need to take avoiding action 

Thanks Angelo.......but now i am much more confused........hihihihih

Ha ha, I just love your palo3 illustration.

When Green responds to Yellow’s hail by hailing “you tack” Green accepts total responsibility to give Yellow Room to avoid Green while Yellow tacks.

In the diagram supplied, at position 4, Green has clearly given room for Yellow’s tack.
However, under rule 15, after Yellow completes her tack at 4 and thereby acquires ROW (under rule 10) by her own action, Yellow must give Green room to keep clear. 

At position 4, I believe that Green has no option but attempt to cross Yellow on port tack. Green almost made it, but Yellow had to bear away to pass astern of Green to avoid contact at position 5.

Yellow’s protest is dismissed as she was required to give room under rule 15 - which she did.

Hello Everyone,
I’ve been racing and studying the RRS for a couple of years now and had sort of come to the same conclusion as Phil, but with a question. I realize this is a big grey area and it all depends, but for how long is it reasonable for yellow to have to initially give green room to keep clear under rule15 before it becomes green’s responsibility to keep clear under rule10?

What you are getting at is what is “room to tack”? That phrase is used 2x in the rules ... Rule 20.2 and def “mark room”. 

An interesting question is whether the meaning of the phrase is the same in both instances?

A boat tacks when she passes head-to-wind.  Is “room to tack” only the room to reach HTW and just pass it?  In rule 20.2, does “room to tack” end and “room .. to avoid her” start at the moment she passed HTW?

HTW = Head To Wind

Thomas, Case 24 speaks a little to the issue of "initially." Sounds like the newly burdened boat must have the ability to maneuver promptly and in a seamanlike way to avoid the newly ROW boat. If she can't do so then the new ROW boat must maneuver to avoid.

In this instance I'd say that when Yellow gains ROW at position 4, it's not possible for Green to either tack or duck in a seamanlike way so Yellow is subject to rule 15 and must duck to avoid Green. If Yellow were a little more advanced (if, for example, Green was at 3 or 3.5 when Yellow was at 4) and it was still possible for Green to tack or duck then I think rule 15 would turn off and if Yellow had to duck Green would break rule 10

Tim Hohmann ..............

" If Yellow were a little more advanced (if, for example, Green was at 3 or 3.5 when Yellow was at 4) and it was still possible for Green to tack or duck then I think rule 15 would turn off and if Yellow had to duck Green would break rule 10"

As the word tack is not defined in the rules we have to go to the commonly used definition.  In this case it means going from a close hauled course on one tack to a close hauled course on the other tack.  (There are cases/calls that describe this.)

What is important to understand in RRS 20 is that the boat requesting room must first be given the room to tack and then the room to avoid the other boat.  While RRS 20 applies RRS 15 doesn't come into play nor does the ROW.  Whether the boat gains, loses, or there is no change in the ROW, if they are required to give room they must give it or if they are entitled to room the other boat is required to give it.

In the first diagram, Green has given Yellow 1) the room to tack and then 2) the room to avoid her (Yellow has the room to duck and avoid) and therefore no rule was broken.  Both boats have done what was required of them.

In the second diagram, Yellow has been given the room to tack but then must be given the 'room to avoid' Green in whatever way Yellow can in a seamanlike way.  Yellow doesn't get the option to claim ROW under RRS 10 here but can make the claim that once she (Yellow) completed her tack she was not given the room to avoid Green.  However, if, at the moment that Yellow completes her tack, she has the room to immediately tack back to port in a seamanlike way then Green has given the room required.  Yellow is not entitled to continue on starboard tack.

While not defined anywhere I am aware of, I suspect that the obligation for the hailed boat to provide room ends at around the same time that the room required under RRS 15 would and then the Part A and B rules govern.

Catalan, in your second scenario Yellow must still avoid Green since Green is already crossing Yellow's bow when Green acquires ROW at 4 (Rule 15). There's no prompt or seamanlike action Green could take to avoid Yellow at that point. Green has complied with her rule 20 obligation to allow Yellow room to avoid Green, since all Yellow would need to do is bear away slightly.

In a scenario like the below, I believe the "initially" clause of rule 15 expires between 4 and 4.5 while it would still be possible for Green to duck Yellow (or tack), so I think Yellow has complied with rule 15 and Green breaks rule 10 if she continues on course and forces Yellow to duck.

John C re: “In this case it means going from a close hauled course on one tack to a close hauled course on the other tack.”

I think we commonly say a boat tacks when they pass head to wind from one tack to the other. 

What Cases are you referring to? - Ang

I agree with Ang, rule 13 appears to make it pretty clear that the act of tacking is from passing head to wind until on a close-hauled course on the new tack.

As leeward boat Yellow is already entitled to come up to HTW and Green must keep clear.

I think we are all saying pretty much the same thing with a some nuances, but the overall result is the same.

Which tack you are on is a defined term and in the RRS is italicized.  You change tack when you cross HTW but that is not the same as tacking. The action of tacking is not a defined term and therefore goes back to the standard/common definition.

The Oxford Companion to Ships and the Sea defines (to) 'tack' as "the operation of bringing a sailing vessel head to wind and across it so as to bring the wind on the opposite side of the vessel".  In this definition, tacking is going from close-hauled to close-hauled.

RRS 13 refers to tacking as being the time between crossing HTW and getting to a close-hauled course.  Prior to that time technically she is luffing not tacking.

Match Race Call N6 states that "for the purpose of taking a penalty, tacking is to change course from close-hauled on one tack, through head to wind, to close-hauled on the other".  While not binding for fleet racing, this Call does not rely on any part of Appendix C and gives a sense of how the rules may be interpreted.

Using these definitions/interpretations with respect to RRS 20, IMHO, the room to 'tack' is the room to luff, go through head to wind, and bear away to a close-hauled course on the new tack.

This entitles the hailing boat to the room to change her course from the current close-hauled course to the other close-hauled course.  It is at that point that she then gets the 'room to avoid' the other boat.  RRS 21 exonerates her for breaking any rule of Section A or RRS 15 or 16 while sailing within that room.  RRS 64.1(a) provides exoneration to the other boat for potentially breaking any rules (RRS 10 for example) provided she has given the room required by RRS 20.  Therefore, the application of RRS 15, 10, 16, etc. while the room required by RRS 20 still exists is moot as the boats are exonerated for breaches of those rules.

In this case the room provided may require the hailing boat (Yellow in our diagrams) to tack back onto port, even though Yellow is on starboard when she reaches close-hauled.  Yellow doesn't get to pick where her room is just that it is there.

John C.  I knew about the Call (I’d note that even for MR’ing it specifically limits that application to “for the purpose of taking a penalty”) ...  You mentioned there were “cases and calls” and I was unaware of a case which specifically talks about “to tack” means.

Just so you know, I am playing devil’s advocate for the purposes of discussion here. 

Even your Oxford def can be satisfied by the “past HTW” approach as the wind from that moment on is “on the opposite side of the vessel”.

Also, if tacking was clearly defined as such, one could argue that Rule 13 is redundant.  That it simply could be : After a boat passes head to wind, [while tacking] she shall keep clear of other boats until she is on a close-hauled course.

I think one could make a good argument to both.   That “to tack” is to change tacks by passing through HTW and “to tack” is as the Call you referenced defines it. 

Here’s a thought experiment. 

Imagine a boat on close-hauled port decides to tack to Starboard. She passes HTW but before she reaches close hauled Starboard she sees a boat she must keep clear of, she halts her progress before she reaches close-hauled-stb and doubles-back through HTW toward close-hauled port.

Is she tacking from Starboard to port?

Ang -
It doesn't matter what direction (stbd to port, port to stbd, stbd to stbd, port to port)  you want to call it.  Once a boat changes tack by passing through HTW she is a tacking boat and continues to be a tacking boat until she comes to a close hauled course on either tack.  What tack you are on is an instantaneous state.  Tacking is an action that has a start and end.  Which tack she is currently on at any point in time is irrelevant to whether or not she is tacking and RRS 13 applies.

When you are entitled to room to tack the interpretation must be the full room to tack from one close-hauled course to the other or the rule makes no sense.

Personally, I would solve the entire RRS 20 problem by deleting the rule completely as it is my contention that it actually results in boats sailing into more dangerous situations.  But that is a discussion for another time. :-)

John C,

I agree with Angelo's analysis of your semantic exposition of 'tacking' (which, by the way, is not a word used in rule 20).  I would additionally point out the rule 13 does not use the words 'tack' or 'tacking'.  'Tacking' appears in the title of rule 13, and in accordance with Definitions Rules (a) rules do not include titles.  It's a reasonable inference that 'tacking' means from passing head to wind until reaching a close hauled course, but the rule does not say that.

I see no warrant to interpret 'room to tack and avoid' in rule 20 as including room for the hailing boat to change course up to head to wind:  she is the ROW boat:  she has no need of room as she comes up to head to wind..

I agree with you that the hailing boat is entitled to room to tack and avoid the responding boat from the time she passes head to wind until she reaches her close hauled course on the new tack.

I invite everyone to consider the mirror-image of the diagrams posted above, where boats on starboard tack are approaching an obstruction on their port side.  In that case, when the hailing boat, initially required to keep clear of the responding boat by rule 13, reaches her close hauled course, now on port tack she continues to be required to keep clear of the responding boat, now by rule 10:  in this case, her room to tack and avoid given by rule 20 certainly continues until she has avoided contact and kept clear.

However, in the diagrammed cases, where the hailing boat reaches a close hauled course on starboard, and gains right of way over the responding boat under rule 10, rule 15 also applies (because nothing in rule 20 or elsewhere says that those rules do not apply), and the hailing boat is now required initially to give the responding boat room to keep clear of her.  In this case, in my opinion there is now a clear cut ROW/Room to keep clear situation, there is no longer any need for the special exception of rule 20 and the better interpretation is that, because the rule 20 'room' is no longer needed, rule 20 ceases to apply when the hailing boat reaches her close hauled course.  I think this agrees with Phil Mostyn's analysis above.

If at the instance Yellow became close hauled (completed her tack) there was no space available for Yellow to comply with 15 - initially give Green room to keep clear - what is the Call?

I think the answer is Yellow is exonerated under rule 21(a), and Green is DSQ under rule 20.2(c). Green gave Yellow room to tack, but did not give Yellow room to avoid Green.

I’m satisfied the last 3 words in 20.2(c) - “and avoid her” - means that there has to be room for Yellow to meet her responsibility to comply with rule 15.

In the course of these discussions it seems to me that when a hailed boat responds with “you tack,” she has absolved the hailing boat of the requirement under rule 13 to keep clear between the time she passes HTW and is close-hauled on her new tack. This would only apply between the hailing and hailed boats. If there were other boats in the mix, rule 13 would still apply between them and the hailing boat. Is this a correct Interpretation?

Thomas, I'm not sure I'd put it that way. While the hailing boat is tacking she's still required by rule 13 to keep clear of other boats (as John Allan pointed out, rule 20 does nothing to change ROW). But the hailed boat (who has ROW while the hailing boat is tacking) has a limitation on her ROW - she's obligated to give the hailing/tacking boat room to avoid (note that rule 20 does not say "give [the hailing boat] room to keep clear"). 

And if the hailing boat needs room to tack from multiple boats, they all have the same obligation to allow the hailing boat to tack and give room to avoid.

John A - Suppose the hailing boat breaks RRS 16 as she is going from close-hauled to head to wind.  If that portion of the tack is not included then she is not exonerated under RRS 21 as that is now no longer part of the 'room to tack' by your definition.   RRS 13 does not need to refer to the verb tacking as it clearly describes the points in time when the rule starts to apply and when it no longer applies.

Here is the mirror image.  In this case the hailed newly ROW boat (Green) is still required to give room for the hailing boat (Yellow) to avoid her even though Green is now ROW and no RRS 15 applies.  The key is how long does the room last.  in this diagram Green barely meets that obligation and if Yellow were slightly more advanced would not.

I think people are also forgetting that RRS 21 provides exoneration to the hailing boat while she is sailing within the room to which she is entitled.  Any breaches of the rules in Section A or 15 & 16 come with exoneration.  So you can talk all you want about the boat breaking the rule or not, it doesn't matter as the boat will be exonerated for that breach.  Yellow would be exonerated for her breach of RRS 10 as she is sailing within the room to which she is entitled.

John Christman

said Created: Today 17:16

Yes, that had occurred to me.

I'm inclined to prefer the application I laid out, and then, further apply the provision of rule 20.2a 'After a boat hail, she shall give a hailed boat tome to respond', interpreting 'respond' to include taking action to comply with the obligation to give room.

I wonder how Phil Mostyn sees it?

Tim Hohmann

said Created: Today 15:41

I don't think that's strictly accurate.

See Case 113.  A boat not adjacent to the hailed boat that has not heard the hail and has not had it passed on to her is not a hailed boat and is under no obligation under rule 20.

And i have a quiestion in this other case:
 

Catalan - as long as Yellow has the room to tack and avoid Green, both in a seamanlike way, then Green has met her obligation.  In the first case it appears that Green has and in the second case Green has clearly not given the room required and therefore breaks RRS 20.  Yellow would be exonerated under RRS 21 for breaking RRS 10.

If 'room to tack' does not include the room to go from close-hauled on one tack to close-hauled on the other tack, consider the following scenario.  From Position 3 to Position 4 Yellow crosses HTW and comes to a close-hauled course and avoids Green, does Green meet her obligations under RRS 20?

John Christman said:
"does Green meet her obligations under RRS 20?

Not for me !!

"...Green has clearly not given to Yellow the room required to avoid in a semanlike way and therefore breaks RRS 20 "

Seems to me that what is missing in this discussion is the basic principle of Rule 20. Rule 20 is a safety rule. 20.1.(a)  …..….and to avoid it safely.  It is very simple in its language. 

Leaving all the other examples when the rule does not apply and focusing on the original question from Cata, Rule 20.2.(c). The rule creates maneuver criteria (room) for boats in order to facilitate needed maneuvers to avoid obstruction.

Either response from the hailed boat requires the hailing boat to tack ASAP. If the hailed boat just tacks, we do not need a conversation about it. Not Cata’s question.

When the response from the hailed boat is “you tack” the Rule asks the hailing boat to tack ASAP after the response and to avoid the hailed boat. The hailed boat’s obligation is to give the hailing boat room to tack and avoid the hailed boat.  

I cannot find any reference to rules 10, 11, 13, 15 during this maneuver that would apply to the hailing or hailed boat at the time Rule 20 comes to light. 

As long as the hailed boat gave the other room to perform her tack and the avoiding maneuver, she satisfies Rule 20. 

The hailing boat is not required to perform ‘heroic’ (not seaman) like maneuver to avoid the hailed boat, but she also does not get to ‘pause’ her avoiding maneuver if as a result of it the boats would be on a collision course. 

John C has it pretty much covered in his diagrams.

I believe that most competitors when in the position of the L boat at obstruction and tack, think that they can continue on close-hauled course on the other tack or close to it and act outrageous if they are not able to do so. Nothing could be further from the language of the Rule 20. We see that in Match and Team races. Here, the ‘protest’ is resolved by the Umpires. It is much harder in fleet racing. 

BTW, if the L boat wanted to bring rules 10, 11, 13 and 15 into the game, she could  start her maneuvers some distance before the obstruction comes to play and Rule 20 is in force. 

Kim

Kim's last sentence is why I think RRS 20 should be deleted - It is possible to avoid obstructions using only RRS 10, 11, and 12.  But that is a whole different post!