The ‘Case’ you are looking for is Match Race Call G2.

Thanks Jacob. Here's a link to a discussion on Match Race Call G2:

https://www.racingrulesofsailing.org/posts/374-match-race-call-g2-giving-room-to-drop-a-spinnaker

And the call itself:

https://www.racingrulesofsailing.org/cases/835

However, this appears to be a fleet race, so presumably the match racing rules (Appendix C) are not listed as applying in the SIs. Given that, how can Match Racing Call G2 apply?

MR Calls does not only involve rules for MR. Since appendix C does not change rule 16.1 or definition ‘room’ this call is valid also when racing without Appendix C.

I don't see how 16.1 would enter into it - L with ROW doesn't appear to change course until position 5, at which point W is well clear. Even if rule 17 was on it doesn't look like L ever sailed above her proper course. And given that W was indisposed, I think L was OK in sailing close to the mark since W wouldn't have been able to take advantage of any mark room given. 

W becomes entitled to mark room just before position 4. I'm wondering if "room to sail to the mark..." includes room for W to sail a lower course to facilitate a spinnaker takedown. I kind of think not - I believe it's possible (if not optimal) to take down a symmetric kite in a seamanlike manner on a higher course so that's all the room W was entitled to. If W couldn't match L's course to the mark with the kite up it was on W to get it down earlier so she could keep clear.

As I see it, prior to the first boat entering the zone, Yellow as windward boat has to keep clear. Blue does not have to give Yellow room to bear away in order to drop her spinnaker. Rule 16.1 only applies to Blue if she changes course, and even if she does so, she is only required to give Yellow room to keep clear, not room to drop her spinnaker unless that is necessary as a result of Blue's course change (as per MR Call G2) - which doesn't appear to be the case here. Once the first boat enters the zone, Blue as outside boat is required to give Yellow mark-room, that is to say room to sail to the mark and room to round the mark as necessary to sail the course. In my view that still doesn't require Blue to give Yellow room to bear away below the straight-line course to the mark in order to drop her spinnaker, and Yellow would not be exonerated for breaking rule 11 if she were to force Blue to do so, since Yellow would not be sailing within the mark-room to which she was entitled. So if Yellow needs to bear away in order to drop her spinnaker, she needs to slow down in order to pass astern of Blue.

How does 16.1 apply here?  Blue did not change course toward yellow.  If anything blue bore away a bit based on the diagram.  There is nothing in the fleet racing RRS that permits a burdened boat to alter course toward a privileged one for ease of sail handling.    

If 16.1 applied because Leeward altered course then she would have to give the Windward boat room to keep clear.  Leeward did not alter course so no such restriction applies.  Hailing Up, Up is not the same as altering course.  From the diagram Windward should have started her douse at position 1 in order to complete her maneuver in a seaman like manner (not broaching) and her delay is on her.  

No one stated that 16.1 applies in situation 1-3, it does not since ROW boat does not change course. Andrew asked for a reference to a ‘case’ he could not find and that case is MR Call G2.

Not disagreeing with that at all but even G2 is in response to 16.1.  If this were a match race G2 would not apply.

Thank you for everyone's help finding MR Call G2.  

The subject came up in a post-race debrief where there was mention about a call where L needs to curtail a luff to give W opportunity to douse.   Reading the case and the commentary in the related thread has been extremely useful and I conclude that it doesn't apply to the scenario I have described.

My take away from everyone's helpful comments is that a that as long as L makes no course change (and hence 16.1 doesn't apply) there's no other limitation to Rule 11 that comes into play.  

A W symmetric boat will need to take the proper courses of L asymmetric boats into consideration and act accordingly.

That ‘case’ is MR Call G2

Hi Andrew
Have a look at WS Case 21. Probably more relevant than MRG2.

I agree with the comments answering Andrew's question. There are a couple of further points I would like to make - I'm the person responsible for judges training in New Zealand.

One mistake I see a lot of sailing officials make, when considering how the rules apply to factual situations, is to go to the casebooks before they properly read the rules themselves. Remember that the cases and calls are applications of the rules to particular facts. If you don't clearly understand what the rules say in the first place, you will not understand how they will apply to the particular facts you are considering. You will also not understand how the cases and calls are relevant.

To clearly understand what the rules say, you cannot read them like you would read a newspaper or internet article. You need to break them down into ingredients or components, understand what each component means, and then see how each applies to the factual situation. To understand each component, you need to consider the qualitative terms such as "room", "keeping clear" and "proper course". If you do all that, then in 95% situations, the rules will themselves answer your questions, and cases can be used to check whether your interpretation is correct. With respect, if Andrew had done that, then that would have answered the problem in his scenario, and he wouldn't need to look at MR Call G2.  

Jacob, when you say MR call G2 is "valid" in Andrew's scenario, because it refers to a rule not changed by App C, are you saying that such Match Racing Calls are authoritative and binding in fleet races? If that is what you are saying, then I disagree. The reasoning behind Call G2, and similar calls, may well be relevant to fleet racing scenarios, but they do not need to be followed as an authority.

The Introduction to the RRS expressly states that the Match Racing Call Book is only authoritative for match racing. This is also the case in the 2021-2024 Rules.

The introduction to the MR Call Book itself acknowledges that there are differences between the disciplines - "In drafting the calls, care has been exercised to minimise the difference between Fleet Racing and Match Racing in terms of the Right of Way Rules of Part 2, however it is recognized that Match Racing is a separate discipline and that there are some differences from Fleet Racing. It is important to note that this Call Book, like previous editions, is therefore only authoritative for umpired Match Racing".

Again, the call books and case books concern the application of the Rules. The way in which rules apply to a match race may differ from a lot of fleet racing scenarios. Also, a lot of the match racing calls are concerned with making the rules usable for umpiring.

Thank you, John,

"With respect, if Andrew had done that, then that would have answered the problem in his scenario, and he wouldn't need to look at MR Call G2."

Also with respect, having read the rule and the case book and not found a situation that matched the facts as I stated them, and with a desire to learn from others who have more experience, I asked here.  

At the time I asked I had no idea whether the case even existed and if it did, whether it was a WS case or from an MNA, never mind whether it was a Match Racing call.

If I could express a newcomer's perspective, reading the cases and calls absolutely helps solidify an understanding of the rules.  The cases and calls are there because the rules alone do not lend themselves to clear understanding in all circumstances.

The discussion from others here is also extremely useful and educational.  Sure, it sometimes goes off on tangents and it can be recursive.  But I'm delighted this forum exists and I thoroughly appreciate everyone's inputs.

Can someone sum up the collective conclusion thus far?

I'm intrigued by Graham Louth's earlier post. (2nd half.)

I'll give it a shot.

Yellow / Windward and Blue / Leeward are on converging courses on the approach to a leeward mark, but not yet inside the zone.

Under Rule 11, Y / W must keep clear of B / L 
As long as B / L makes no course change and is sailing a proper course, B / L is not compelled to give Y / W any additional room to keep clear.

That Y lost control during the effort to keep clear is immaterial.  There was no contact and neither boat broke a rule.

Fair enough!

Only thing I'd say is that maybe the word 'proper course' doesn't need to be anywhere near this write up.

The 'facts' appear to imply that rule 17 did not apply.


---------------------------------------------
Was there any conclusion for:

a) If Blue luffs
b) The rules having entered the zone?

I agree with all the conclusions above.
It is interesting though the difference in Match Racing. Once in the two lengths zone the inside boat can go wide to take her spinnaker down if she is sailing her proper course. This is because of the changed definition of Mark Room.

@Benjamin - Not sure what it is about the second part of my previous post that "intrigues" you - could you elaborate? (Has subsequently occurred to me that the best course of action for Yellow is probably to sail high whilst she is outside the zone so that she can then turn downwind and drop her spinnaker as she enters the zone; that way she can give herself the space she needs to drop her spinnaker whilst potentially maintaining her inside overlapped position so as to be able to claim mark-room from Blue at the mark).

@Mike - Thanks for pointing out the difference in the Match Racing rules. To be clear, the difference is that in Match Racing mark-room is "room for a boat to sail her proper course to round or pass the mark on the required side", whereas in Fleet Racing (and Team Racing) mark-room does not of itself entitle a boat to sail her proper course.

@John Grace:
Please read my comments again, I never said that 'MR call G2 is "valid" in Andrew's scenario' I said that the case Andrew was referring/looking for in his post is not a case but Match Race Call G2.

The Match Racing Call book states that 'In drafting the calls, care has been exercised to minimise the difference between Fleet Racing and Match Racing in terms of the Right of Way Rules of Part 2, however it is recognized that Match Racing is a separate discipline and that there are some differences from Fleet Racing. It is important to note that this Call Book, like previous editions, is therefore only authoritative for umpired Match Racing.', so the Call book for Match Race is only authoritative for umpired Match Racing.

If I have a fleet race hearing where my facts are identical to a MR Call that does not involve a rule or definition changed by Appendix C I would think twice before making a different decision then that of the call, that is the reason for the statement to Al Sargent comment 'However, this appears to be a fleet race, so presumably the match racing rules (Appendix C) are not listed as applying in the SIs. Given that, how can Match Racing Call G2 apply':

/Jacob

Andrew, I tend to look for the rules that apply or might apply. I then look for facts that allow me to draw a conclusion that the rule applies or does not apply.

 

Both boats are racing so one of the Section A, Right-of-Way rules applies.

Blue is the right-of way boat and some rules in Section B, C and D may limit her actions. There are three that need consideration.

 

The initial reaction is Yellow kept clear protest dismissed. The fact that she broached is her problem.

However, Yellow gets to the zone before she broaches, so she could make an an argument that once they reached the zone there wasn’t sufficient room for her to pass between Blue and the mark in the existing conditions while dousing her spinnaker. The failure of Yellow to provide mark room caused Yellow to sail a course above the mark, resulting in her broaching.

 

Howard Elliot already suggested reading World Sailing Case 21, and World Sailing Case 46 is worth reading as well.

From the diagram, when Y enters the zone there's plenty of room for her to sail to the mark. She sails above the mark because of her broach, not because of any action by B. And once they get to position 5 it's possible for Blue to sail close to the mark without intruding on Yellow's mark room.

Note from case 21, the inside boat "is not entitled to complain of insufficient space if she fails to execute with reasonable efficiency the handling of her helm, sheets and sails while maneuvering." So unless you can make the case that every (or at least most) skipper and crew would have broached under those conditions, I don't think Yellow has a claim to extra maneuvering room. She's entitled to room to douse her spinnaker in a normal manner while on a course to the mark, but not room to turn below the mark. 

If Yellow doesn't think she can match Blue's course with the spinnaker up without broaching she should either pass astern or douse early.

I did say that my initial reaction is Yellow kept clear, protest dismissed. The fact that she broached is her problem.

However, lets explore the possibility that the outside boat (Blue) failed to give the inside boat (Yellow) mark-room. The one fact we have is

Proper course is defined as "A course a boat would sail to finish as soon as possible in the absence of the other boats referred to in the rule using the term. ..."

As the boats were overlapped when the first of them reached the zone, the outside boat (Blue) at that moment shall thereafter give the inside boat (Yellow) mark-room. The one fact we have says, that Blue was sailing her proper course at all times. If Blue was sailing her proper course, which is the course she would sail in the absence of the other boats referred to in the rule, then she is sailing too the mark, which does not give Yellow mark-room. Blue needs to be sailing below her proper course after she reaches the zone to give Yellow mark-room.

Andrew did indicate "breezy conditions". Now is that the "British breezy", 30 knots, 20 ft seas and driving rain, or the Southern Californian breezy, 10-12 knots 1 ft swell and sunny. If the former, then Yellow will need more space in the existing conditions to carry out her spinnaker drop and rounding in a seamanlike way. See World Sailing Case 21.

Still not sure I'm disqualifying Blue, but I think it worthy of a discussion, if only a short one!! Yellow's big problem is her change of course at position 2!

"Andrew did indicate "breezy conditions". Now is that the "British breezy"?

I must write with a British accent!      It was Summer afternoon, San Francisco Bay breezy!

Just so we're all clear, there was no bump, no foul, no protest.  The purpose of my original post is purely to deepen my understanding of the RRS and associated calls and cases.

Mark, I think once Yellow broached and was unable to round the mark overlapped inside Blue, case 63 says that Blue was could take advantage of the space (at her own risk, which in this situation was minimal) and sail close to the mark. I don't think Blue was required to allow room that she knew Yellow wouldn't be able to sail in.

World Sailing Case 21 talks about existing conditions as it relates to room for a boat to leave a mark on the required side. Until Yellow gets to the zone, Yellow is the windward boat and must keep clear. Altering course towards the leeward boat at position 2 isn't exactly my idea of keeping clear, but she probably doesn't break RRS 11 as Blue never alters course. Once Yellow gets to the zone she broaches, and unless she can demonstrate that her broach was as a result of Blue not giving her mark-room she isn't going to get much love from the Jury.

The more extreme the "existing conditions", the more room Yellow needs and Blue has to give her.  

From WS Case 21.

Let's move on from OPs post.  We agree that exactly per OPs post, no rule was broken, since it was outside the zone, and blue did not change course.  Tough luck Yellow.

------------------------------------

Graham / Tim,

We don't have any 'facts' regarding wind speeds or conditions ( other than 'Breezy'), but we're talking about broaches (roundups) here.  I'd say it could be quite fresh.

Prior to the zone, Blue can't luff Yellow into a broach, since broaching is un-seamanlike.

When in the zone, I think Case 21 and Case 103 apply. ..."the space a boat (crewed with a competent, but not expert crew appropriate for the size of boat) NEEDS without having to manoeuvre in an extraordinary or abnormal manner, in the existing conditions to round the mark with efficient handling of helm and sheets ..yadda yadda yadda.

I think even the best pro sailors in the world would bear away to douse in some conditions.  In the windiest conditions, that maybe as deep as almost DDW.

As I see it, once in the zone, if Yellow bears away to douse, the she is taking mark-room to which she is entitled.  If Blue holds Yellow up inside the zone, so Yellow can't douse 'normally' (or her spinnaker floats to leeward during a reasonably normal drop and touches Blue), then Yellow breaks rule 11 and is exonerated, and Blue breaks rule 18.2(b).

Am I missing something?

yes I think you are missing something.
It may be a proper course in the zone to bear off to drop the spinnaker but the windward boat is not allowed room to sail a proper course.
She is just entitled to sail in the corridor (a relatively straight line) to the mark before rounding it.

Racing regularly on a symmetric boat in a mixed fleet, an early learning point is not to get yourself in that position.  At the previous mark, you make sure you are to leeward of an asymmetric boat before hoisting so you can sail as deep as you want, otherwise you will have no option but to sail its course away from the leeward mark.  

Benjamin / Mike

Benjamin, It did occur to me when I was replying to your previous comment that this might be what you had in mind, but I thought it best to let you say so rather than me hypothesise. I think you may have something there, and in response to Mike's comment, I think it may relate to the "room to round the mark as necessary to sail the course" part of the definition of mark-room, rather than the "room to sail to the mark" part.

It seems to me that Yellow does not need to douse/drop her spinnaker in order to be able to sail to the mark, and therefore she is not entitled to room to do so in respect of that part of the definition of mark-room (as Mike says).

But in the OP's scenario it seems clear that Yellow is going to have to douse/drop her spinnaker in order to round the mark as necessary to sail the course. In which case I think Blue may have to give Yellow room to do that. And if, as Benjamin says, the only seamanlike way for Yellow to do that is to bear away, potentially even down to a DDW course, then I am minded to agree with Benjamin that Blue may have to give Yellow the room to do that (but only to the extent necessary for a competent crew to douse/drop Yellow's spinnaker in the existing conditions).

In some respects this is not dissimilar to the situation where a boat has to gybe in order to round the mark. In that case, whilst the rules don't explicitly say so, and neither can I find any case that requires it, I think it is widely agreed that the outside boat has to give the inside boat room to gybe if they need to do so to round the mark as necessary to sail the course.

This does however leave me with a remaining question (or two), namely at what point does Blue have to give Yellow that mark-room (if she is indeed required to give it), and does Yellow have to do anything to minimise the amount of room that Blue has to give her?

For example, can Yellow leave it until she is at the mark to bear away to drop her spinnaker? Clearly Blue is not going to like that, but that could be one interpretation of Mike's view for example. (Another possible outcome of Mike's view is that Yellow keeps her spinnaker up until she is past the mark. Blue then luffs, but according to MR Call G2, at that point she has to give Yellow room to drop her spinnaker. What that Call doesn't address is that happens if Yellow needs to bear away in order to drop her spinnaker - it implicitly assumes that Yellow can drop her spinnaker without having to bear away.)

At the other extreme (sort of), is Yellow required to do as much as possible to minimise the room she requires Blue to give her? In which case she should probably luff outside the zone in order to increase the distance between herself and Blue, before bearing away in order to drop her spinnaker so that she is ready to luff promptly as she rounds the mark, thereby minimising the room that Blue has to give her. Is this the only room she needs in the existing conditions to round the mark as necessary to sail the course, and hence the only room that she can claim?

Or does Blue have to give Yellow room to drop her spinnaker as soon as one of them is in the zone (if that is what Yellow needs to do in order to round the mark as necessary to sail the course), irrespective of the fact that Yellow may have sailed lower than she could have done prior to zone entry?

A Q&A for World Sailing perhaps?

Well, Kirsteen is quite right.

At the end of the day, both boats were playing a risky game here.  Yellow for being above a boat who can sail much higher angles.  Blue for holding a boat up, who may need to bear away to drop,  and also risking that Yellow has a problem, or that she heels over so much in a broach that they cross swords, or she gets her masthead gear taken out by Yellow's spinnaker!!

For Blue, its a classic case where asserting her rights probably isn't best for both of them!

Best for both tacticians to have worked out that it was not going to go well, way before they met.


-------------

In response to Michael's comment first, I was more talking about 'needs' rather than 'wants'.

I fully agree that Yellow is not entitled to sail a 'proper course' as she chooses.  Sometimes a 'proper course' is wide-in/tight-out (tactical) style rounding.  No, she does not get to do that.  Agree, but that's not what my point was meant to be.

I was hypothesising more along the lines of what Graham has mentioned above.

Again, to me its a case of 'needs'.  The space Yellow needs...as per the definition of 'room'.

I think Graham's third and last paragraph sum up my position.

... then I am minded to agree with Benjamin that Blue may have to give Yellow the room to do that (but only to the extent necessary for a competent crew to douse/drop Yellow's spinnaker in the existing conditions)

Or does Blue have to give Yellow room to drop her spinnaker as soon as one of them is in the zone (if that is what Yellow needs to do in order to round the mark as necessary to sail the course),...?

Outside the zone, there is not much Yellow can do.  She has to keep clear.

Once the first boat enters the zone, Blue's obligation starts then.

Technically, Blue is not obliged to 'anticipate' her impending requirement to give mark-room.  However, in reality, in order to give that room the moment the first enters the zone, she does need to, since Yellow may take that room the moment she is 1mm inside the zone!

The ultimate question is whether a boat 'needs' to bear away to drop.  Well, as Graham mentions, Yellow certainly does NEED to drop;  she can't sail upwind with her kite.  But does a boat ever 'NEED' to bear away to drop?  How much? Does this come into her mark-room entitlement?

Well, sometimes they do, sometimes they don't.  It depends on the type of spinnaker, the type of boat and the conditions, and of course, the angle of the approach to the mark to start with.  If it they do, I'd say this is part of the mark-room entitlement.

Graham asks how much does Yellow have to do to avoid needing to bear away.  In my opinion, nothing.  It all starts at the snapshot of what is happening when the first enters the zone.  (Don't get me wrong, in most cases waiting that late is not wise, regardless of the rules.  Yet, for some boats dropping this late is normal procedure.  TP52 String Drop )

I'd say this.  If Yellow is able to drop effectively without bearing away and do a leeward drop, she has to do that.  Even if her intention (normal drop) was to bear away DDW and bring the spinnaker in to windward (favoured on big asym boats).

If on the other hand, the winds are just too crazy, she's on her ear, heeled over, coming in hot on a broad reach, and dropping would likely end up with spinnaker trawling in the water or out of control all over Blue's rig in a terribly unseamanlike manner, then she clearly needs to bear away.  In which case, she would be taking room to which she is entitled.  Blue had better give her that room.

So to me, it is not as clear cut as 'yes she may bear away to drop' or 'no she can't'.

It's a matter of considering all those factors which come into the definition and interpretations of room, mark-room and seamanlike (Case 21 and Case 103).


Jolly good chat!

I vote Graham to send it up to the Q&A panel!! :-)

Somehow there are two discussions here one where Yellow's broach happened before either boat reached the zone and one where Yellow's broach started after the zone.
 Andrew in his OP states "the diagram is imperfect the broach began outside the zone" in which case we can consider the incident of the broach without the zone being in play. And suppose the scenario was played out half way down the leg there is no way that yellow could bear away and not be obliged by RRS 11 to keep clear. Blue would not be obliged to give any room to Yellow especially since it was Yellow’s action that created the situation. The same applies before the zone is reached in this scenario.

Once the first boat entered the zone then Yellow was entitled to mark room. She could not avail herself of the mark room because she entered the zone while broaching and proceeded to sail to the wrong side of the mark. Blue at no time denied Yellow mark room!
Neither boat broke any rules.
I have redrawn the diagram to show the scenario as I see it. Like Andrew I'm trying to learn. All comments appreciated.

Paddy, you raise an interesting point. Take the mark out of the scenario. Y under symmetric spinnaker is windward of B under asymmetric or jib. B is not sailing above her proper course (if rule 17 is on). Y cannot sail as high as B with her spinnaker up. May Y bear away and force B to bear away so that Y can take her spinnaker down and claim she needed that space as room to keep clear?

I think not, and if not I think Y is likewise not entitled to bear away under the guise of mark room. I don't think it matters whether the broach begins before or after reaching the zone, as long as prior to the broach B is allowing a corridor for Y to sail to the mark. 

Y failing to plan for her spinnaker takedown and putting herself in a position where she will either broach or break a rule is not B's problem.

Hi Tim thanks for your comments. I always think it is helpful to try and get back to the simplest scenario and build from there. 
Stay safe!
Wash your hands 
Paddy