Yes.

Yes

Yes. What in the RRS makes you think you don’t need to?

If it’s “without your knowledge” how would you decide you needed to take a penalty?

Of course you do. There is nothing in the rules to even suggest that your position on the race course gives you a pass on taking penalties. 

Yes - who is to say whether or not you gained an advantage.  You sailed a little shorter course probably than those that gave it more room.  If it is a mark on the course doesn't matter if you gain an advantage.  

If it truly was without your knowledge how did you ever find out you did it?

If another competitor in the race, witnesses the incident and hails Protest - you have a choice - take a penalty or go to a hearing.
If you were so far ahead that they could not notify you, and you learn of the incident after you finish, then go to the RC and retire (RAF).

John

I'd agree with the above comments, but for one thing: "without my knowledge". Therefore, this implies that the boat is informed after the fact by either another competitor, or (potentially) the race committee.

Here, to my mind, the two options can only be:
a) not agree that you hit the mark, and therefore risk disqualification assuming a valid protest finds that you did hit the mark, or;
b) agree that you hit the mark, and retire.

I'd submit that a one-turn penalty would not suffice: since it would not be compliant with R44.2, in that it would not be done "after getting well clear of other boats as soon after the incident as possible".

A boat must take a penalty if she is aware that she broke a rule. 

Let’s assume a moment that you did in fact hit the mark.

It matters not if you benefit or not from breaking a rule.   The only place “advantage” comes into play is in determining whether or not turns or after race penalties are available to you at all.  If you gain an advantage even after doing turns/taking a penalty, then you must retire yourself or risk a DSQ in a hearing. 

Yes; of course.  I've been racing in the past year after being away for about 10 years (yikes!).  Great job the rules-makers have done of simplifying things over the past 20 years or so.  Just don't hit marks.  It doesn't matter what kind of mark or if you're in the lead or behind, or it's advertent or inadvertent, or if you're wearing a red had or a blue one.  Super simple!

And to Tim and Greg, I would say, "If someone hails you".  (you know this).  Well ahead; just do it.  Alternately you were aware, but didn't *know*.  Hmmm.

If you're unaware of the infraction, how did you become aware of it? 

RSS 2 effectively says do the sportsmenlike thing. If you were truly not aware of the RSS 31 violation, and not protested for it, why would you take a penalty turn for something you didn't know you did? 

If you were made aware of the infraction, do your turns. 

I would also say that if you're (genuinely) unaware of the touch at the time of the incident but later in the race someone protests you (or even just informs you that they saw you touch the mark) and you do your turns penalty promptly after being informed, that constitutes "as soon as possible".

Agree or disagree?

Let me quote from the very first part of the Racing Rules of Sailing, even before the Fundamental Rules:

SPORTSMANSHIP AND THE RULES
Competitors in the sport of sailing are governed by a body of rules that they are expected to follow and enforce. A fundamental principle of sportsmanship is that when a boat breaks a rule and is not exonerated she will promptly take an appropriate penalty or action, which may be to retire."

Therefore, if you touch a mark and are "unaware" of your infringement and only find out later (let's say either through another competitor, an observer's comment, or a video), your obligation is to retire, even after the race, if you did not take your 1-turn penalty.

To answer Tim-it should be done by protest, not just notification. Unscrupulous individuals could 'notify' you for their gain. Sad, but true. A protest would be the proper notification method. 

Brad, I agree with that - whether it's a protest or a notification, the sailor has to evaluate whether they believe they touched or not and act accordingly with the risk of DSQ in mind. 

But the root of my question is, if you don't become aware of the breach until a few minutes after (while still racing), can you still take a turns penalty if you take the penalty as soon as possible after being notified/protested?

I'd say yes, Tim. Talking your turn(s) as soon as your aware of your infraction would pass muster with any Protest Committee. The protestor should lower their red flag when they see you complete the turn. 

Integrity:  How you behave when no one is watching.  "Well ahead" implies you could've done the turn(s) and still been in the lead.  "Without my knowledge" implies you saw, but chose to ignore the infraction unless someone dragged you into the protest room.  You are obviously fast in the fleet, so be a good sport and do your turns.  Win the race and share your sailing expertise with the slower boats.  You'll be rewarded with better competition in future races and seen as a stand up guy.  A win/win!

Hi Daryl-I question your comment and the meaning you made about ‘without my knowledge’. How do you make that statement ignoring the infraction? I’m sure in my 25+ years of racing, that some point of my boat my have touched a mark that nobody, including me, saw. Am in penalty for not taking a turn for an infraction that occurred without my knowledge? You are implying knowledge contrary to the statement.

If I touch a mark and know it, I’m obligated to take my turn without regards to others noticing or protesting. That’s what sportsmanship is. I don’t take penalty turns for violations I’m unaware of. Nobody does.

If you believe you may indeed have hit the mark, then you should take penalty. If you are unsure, but you believe the observer or other competitior, then you should take the penalty. But if you are unaware of hitting a mark and you genuinely thought you did not, but a competitor claims that you did hit the mark, then a protest is called. Your word against the other competitor (assuming only one competitor saw the "impact") and you were closest to the incident (or most closely watching in RC sailing) - should the PC then dismiss the case? If only an observor (and no competitors) claims to have seen the contact (and you claim you believe that you did not) - should the PC dismiss the case? 

Brad:  If a tree falls in the forest, does it make a sound?  The answer is yes.  If an infraction is "without knowledge" and no one protests, does the infraction actually exist?  Again, the answer is yes.  I'm sure you would weigh the possibility of an infraction occurring before contemplating taking the penalty turn.  In my opinion, the initial statement implies that an infraction occurred and SOMEONE saw it.  Because if there was no infraction, why would someone even think of doing turns?  

Daryl, I think you are jumping the gun a bit and in doing so jumping on a forum member a bit harshly.   The personal implications directed toward Jeff in your reply are unnecessary to make any point you want to make. 

There is nothing in his post that said he did not do his turns or take some other penalty. You should not assume he did not and then cast aspersions based on that assumption.

Ang 

As an illustrative example, let me quote from the description of US Sailing's Peter Barrett Sportsmanship Award:
"Fair play and honesty were more important to Peter than medals.  Peter’s only handicap was his eyesight.  When his thick glasses were doused with saltwater, in the heavy weather he reveled in, sailing was a special challenge.  
In the 1964 Tokyo Olympics, just after the start of Finn race five, Peter tacked onto port, ducking sterns.  He felt his shoulder lightly touch the rudder of a starboard tacker but neither the helmsman nor the other competitors noticed. Even though only Peter was aware of the contact, he retired from the race.  Staying clear of the fleet, he sailed to the weather mark, arriving 50 yards ahead of the first official competitor.  Peter was awarded the silver medal, but final results confirmed that had he placed in the top five in the fifth race, he would have easily won the gold. Throughout his competitive career, Peter won national championships in 470s, Finns, C and A Scows.
Peter loved competition, sailing, his family, friends, and life.  His big grin and nodding head were there for all whether he beat you or you beat him. 
With his high standards of fair play and honesty, and his exceptional toughness and sailing skill, it is easy to understand the ultimate compliment of North Sails founder, Lowell North, 'Peter Barrett is the best person I have ever known.'”

Alex, are you saying that a boat ALREADY well clear cannot GET well clear, and thus must retire?
That is an interesting interpretation, And I am not saying it is wrong...

Phil, I took Alex to mean the "as soon after the incident as possible" part, not the "getting well clear" part. If a boat is already well clear when the incident occurs I'd say that requirement is met and she can proceed with turns.

Angelo, I apologize to you, and especially Jeff if I came across harsh and accusatory.  I meant to speak in general terms, not directed at anyone personally.  I should’ve answered more directly; in my opinion you should do the 360. 

Daryl, I appreciate that post and thanks for understanding.

We try to make RRoS a place for everyone, from the experienced IJ to someone new to sailing. A key component of that is to keep it congenial, kind, respectful and helpful.

There are so many more people out there that follow silently and never post. Our goal is to try to make the forum as welcoming as we can, so more of our “lurkers” will share their thoughts, questions and observations. 

Thanks. 

Ang