Note: This forum is not affiliated with World Sailing and comments on this forum do not represent an official interpretation of the rules, definitions, cases or regulations. The only official interpretations are those of World Sailing.
Preventing a boat from getting well clear to take a penalty
P
John Allan
Certifications:
National Judge
Regional Race Officer
0
This is a 'rabbit hole' issue arising from Jaakko's post in Intentional contact and RRS 2 in the TR/MR Forum. It doesn't rely on any Appendix D TR rules.
After an incident (typically in TR) in which a boat indicates that she will take a penalty, or is penalised by umpires, is it permissible for another boat to follow her and prevent her from ‘getting well clear of other boats’ and thus from beginning to take her penalty and gain protection under rule 23.2?
Consider the diagram below.
Has Y got well clear?
Is Y taking a penalty?
Is B required to avoid interfering with Y if reasonably possible?
Created: 21-Sep-18 04:34
Comments
Philip Hubbell
Nationality: United States
Certifications:
Club Race Officer
Judge In Training
0
23.2.
If reasonably possible, a boat shall not interfere with a boat that is taking a penalty.... However, after the starting signal this rule does not apply when the boat is sailing her proper course.
Created: 21-Sep-18 06:48
Paul Hanly
Nationality: Australia
0
23.2 is new for 2021-24 rules. Change the years at the top of the page if you can't see 23.2
Created: 21-Sep-18 07:27
Andrea Scoglio
Nationality: Italy
Certifications:
Regional Race Officer
0
pos. 1 RRS 11 > red flag pos. 2 RRS 11 > red flag pos. 3 RRS 23.2 + RRS 2 + RRS 691b1 (red flag ?)
Created: 21-Sep-18 07:30
P
Michael Butterfield
Nationality: United Kingdom
Certifications:
International Judge
International Umpire
International Race Officer
0
I believe a boat has to get well clear before taking a penalty. If you interfere in this time it is OK. As the boat has never got clear it is not taking a penalty. I remember a case where one boat was luffing away that sail this.
Created: 21-Sep-18 08:21
P
John Allan
Certifications:
National Judge
Regional Race Officer
0
Hi Andrea, Maybe I should have put a little more detail in my OP.
Suppose just before @1 Y luffed too quickly and didn't give B room to keep clear, and indicated she was going to take a penalty.
So you don't have to worry about rule 11 @1 and @2.
At what point do you say Y has got well clear of B?
Created: 21-Sep-18 13:24
Philip Hubbell
Nationality: United States
Certifications:
Club Race Officer
Judge In Training
0
Unless otherwise stated, Y has been luffing B above her desired course, which would be her proper course. If Y has earned a penalty and bears away, B has every right to resume her desired course, which may be to bear away and gybe back to a mark or the starting line. Y must keep clear while engaged in her penalty. If B maintains starboard gybe defensively (pos. 5) that is legitimate.
Created: 21-Sep-18 16:03
Andrea Scoglio
Nationality: Italy
Certifications:
Regional Race Officer
0
Hi John I have to rely on the information I have if as you write Y luffed quickly, it is also true that there was no "contact" with B, so B could not protest in pos. 1 both are head to wind and in pos 2 both bear away, so Y is "downwind" of B and B must keep clear, while B stays very close and does not allow it to luff (if Y luffs immediate contact occurs) : why do you think Y can't make a protest? It is true that if Y when taking a penalty he must keep clear, but from the drawings it is not clear what maneuver he is doing, while I think that B's behavior is clear.
Created: 21-Sep-18 19:05
P
John Allan
Certifications:
National Judge
Regional Race Officer
0
Andrea, Phil,
You're overcomplicating this.
It was not a general question about which boat broke what rule when.
I apologise if I didn't put enough detail in the OP to close off all the rabbit holes.
I'll try to patch it up here.
Umpired TR rules (Appendix D) apply.
The incident occurs while boats are racing but before the starting signal.
No boat protests.
At, or just before @1 Y clearly indicates that she will take a penalty.
It would help me if people answered the specific questions that I asked, which were, considering the diagram in the OP, at any point:
Question 1 Has Y got well clear? Question 2 Is Y taking a penalty? Question 3 Is B required to avoid interfering with Y if reasonably possible?
Created: 21-Sep-18 21:42
Philip Hubbell
Nationality: United States
Certifications:
Club Race Officer
Judge In Training
0
1. No. 2. No. 3. No.
Created: 21-Sep-18 23:18
P
John Allan
Certifications:
National Judge
Regional Race Officer
0
Thanks Phil
Created: 21-Sep-18 23:56
Andrea Scoglio
Nationality: Italy
Certifications:
Regional Race Officer
0
OK thank you
Created: 21-Sep-19 05:48
P
John Allan
Certifications:
National Judge
Regional Race Officer
0
Hi Andrea,
How about you try to answer the three questions:
Question 1 Has Y got well clear? Question 2 Is Y taking a penalty? Question 3 Is B required to avoid interfering with Y if reasonably possible?
Created: 21-Sep-22 22:37
Paul Hanly
Nationality: Australia
0
My thoughts: If it is before starting signal, B has no proper course so 23.2 can't protect Y.
Created: 21-Sep-23 02:08
P
John Allan
Certifications:
National Judge
Regional Race Officer
0
Paul,
Could you explain how you work that out?
Rule 23.3, relevant parts accurately quoted by Phil above,
In first sentence generally prohibits a boat from interfering with a boat taking a penalty, if reasonably possible.
Last sentence provides a condition when the prohibition does not apply, namely after the starting signal and sailing a proper course.
So Last sentence doesn't apply to me exawe are discussing.
However, after the starting signal this rule does not apply when the boat is sailing her proper course.
Change the years at the top of the page if you can't see 23.2
pos. 2 RRS 11 > red flag
pos. 3 RRS 23.2 + RRS 2 + RRS 691b1 (red flag ?)
As the boat has never got clear it is not taking a penalty.
I remember a case where one boat was luffing away that sail this.
Maybe I should have put a little more detail in my OP.
Suppose just before @1 Y luffed too quickly and didn't give B room to keep clear, and indicated she was going to take a penalty.
So you don't have to worry about rule 11 @1 and @2.
At what point do you say Y has got well clear of B?
If Y has earned a penalty and bears away, B has every right to resume her desired course, which may be to bear away and gybe back to a mark or the starting line.
Y must keep clear while engaged in her penalty.
If B maintains starboard gybe defensively (pos. 5) that is legitimate.
I have to rely on the information I have
if as you write Y luffed quickly, it is also true that there was no "contact" with B, so B could not protest
in pos. 1 both are head to wind and in pos 2 both bear away, so Y is "downwind" of B and B must keep clear, while B stays very close and does not allow it to luff (if Y luffs immediate contact occurs) : why do you think Y can't make a protest?
It is true that if Y when taking a penalty he must keep clear, but from the drawings it is not clear what maneuver he is doing, while I think that B's behavior is clear.
You're overcomplicating this.
It was not a general question about which boat broke what rule when.
I apologise if I didn't put enough detail in the OP to close off all the rabbit holes.
I'll try to patch it up here.
It would help me if people answered the specific questions that I asked, which were, considering the diagram in the OP, at any point:
Question 1
Has Y got well clear?
Question 2
Is Y taking a penalty?
Question 3
Is B required to avoid interfering with Y if reasonably possible?
2. No.
3. No.
How about you try to answer the three questions:
Question 1
Has Y got well clear?
Question 2
Is Y taking a penalty?
Question 3
Is B required to avoid interfering with Y if reasonably possible?
Could you explain how you work that out?
Rule 23.3, relevant parts accurately quoted by Phil above,
How is proper course relevant?