Catalan, I would suggest looking to the definition of "racing", "finish" and the preamble to Part 2 and RRS18.1(a). - Ang

PS .. I know my reply/comment sounds a bit coy, but this is a fantastic opportunity to practice walking through a series of definitions and rules and come to a conclusion.

I think you should also think about a boats racing and not racing. A boat not racing, green, should keep clear of a boat racing, yellow. I think this applies after the finish.

Green is still racing according to the definition. However, she has finished unless she takes a penalty.

Thanks.

Agree with Jerry. Green is still racing and the ROW rules still apply to her until she clears the finishing line and marks. (Also Rule 18.2(b) may not apply to these boats on opp. tacks if they are (as it appears they are) on a beat to windward. So yellow's hail for room is a bit odd.)

Exactly. Only 10 applies in this case. Although there seems to be a bit of confusion on this issue on the race course. We had to go in the protest room on the last day of a regatta to make that point with a competitor.

I don't know whether it is meant to be, but this is a trick question.

As Angelo has said, it requires walking through a series of definitions and rules (and Cases) to get the answer.

When the first of the boats G and Y reached the zone, they were on opposite tacks on a beat to windward and rule 18 did not apply (rule 18.1( a ).

Rule 10 applied, but at that time there was plenty of space between the boats and G was keeping clear.

As diagrammed, when G has finished (but not having cleared the finishing line and marks, is still racing)

• G is no longer 'on a beat to windward': Case 132 says A boat is on a beat to windward when the course she would sail to finish as soon as possible in the absence of all other boats is a close-hauled course or above. G no longer has any course to finish as soon as possible.
• G, having finished has no proper course. Definition: Proper Course says A course a boat would sail to finish as soon as possible ... . G no longer has any course to finish as soon as possible.
• The proper course of Y, at the mark is NOT to tack

So the exceptions to rule 18 in rules 18.1( a ) and ( b ) do not apply and the exceptions in rules 18.1( c ) and ( d ) are irrelevant.

None of the exceptions in rule 18.1 apply therefore rule 18 applies between G and Y.

When the first of them reached the zone, rule 18 did not apply, so rule 18.2( b ) does not apply therefore the relevant part of rule 18.2 is rule 18.2( a ).

The definition of overlap applies between boats on opposite tacks when Rule 18 applies (Definition: Clear Astern and Clear Ahead, Overlap) therefore G and Y are overlapped and Y is overlapped inside G with respect to the mark.

G is required to give Y mark-room (rule 18.2( a )).

Y is on starboard, G is on port, rule 10 applies and G is required to keep clear of Y.

Y is aiming G's mast with half a boat length between boats: G is not keeping clear of Y. G breaks rule 10.

The mark-room G is required to give Y is room to leave the mark on the required side (Definition: mark-room), and room is the space a boat needs ... manoeuvering promptly in a seamanlike way (Definition: room).

The space between G and the mark is insufficient for Y to leave the mark on the required side while keeping a seamanlike space between her and G and between her and the mark. G is not giving Y the mark-room to which she is entitled. G is breaking rule 18.2( a ).

On valid protest penalise G.

G breaks both rule 10 and rule 18.2( a ), but she can only be penalised once for the same incident.

John, the application of Case 132 in this way sure seems to me to be an unintended consequence.

That said, I can't find a hook to hang my hat on to argue to prevent Case 132's application given its current language.

Ang

here port is at risk, she is racing till she clears the finishing line ND MARKS.
as she is close to the committee boat that and marks could be very appropriate.
even then she is racing and subject to the rules but can only be penalised for damage or injury.
do not forget starboard can be a distance away with port on the line and be disqualified.
a boat fails to keep clear, when another boat has to alter course, this could be a distance away.
mike

Angelo Guarino
said

John, the application of Case 132 in this way sure seems to me to be an unintended consequence.

That said, I can't find a hook to hang my hat on to argue to prevent Case 132's application given its current language.

I agree. I don't think this was forseen by the drafters of Case 132.

At the race committee vessel end, it makes no difference to the outcome.

Now try this one at the pin end of the finishing line




Just to keep on track, lets assume that at Position 1 minus delta, immediately before Y crosses the finishing line, we are all satisfied that Y is far enough from B so that B has no need to take avoiding action, that is, that Y is keeping clear of B.

B bears away and validly protests.

How does it run?

if we are satisfied, then no penalty.
if not satisfied case 50 applies.
as starboard has not tacked where he would initially have to give room then the presence of the mark is not relevant.

Mike, I think you're travelling a bit too fast for us mere mortals.

If you're saying that, contrary to the assumption I provided, a protest committee is persuaded that B needed to take action to avoid Y at some time before Y first crossed the finishing line, then Y has broken rule 10 and we need go no further, then I can follow that.

I don't get why B tacking or not tacking affects the relevance of where the mark is.

Can not B give room by bearing away, however tactically disadvantageous this may be?

why does blue need to give room, surely on a beat 18 does not apply.

the tCK IS RELEVANT in that if blue hS TO GIVE ROOM THE CASES SAY ITVIS NOT SEmNLIKE TO TACK INTO A MARKBSO Y IS PROTECTED AND SHE CAN CONTINUE TO FINISH.

See the somewhat extended discussion I provided for the case at the race committee vessel end above.

Are you saying that you disagree that once any part of Y in its normal position has crossed the finishing line and Y has finished, she no longer has a course she would sail to finish as soon as possible, and thus applying Case 132, she is no longer on a beat to windward, and no longer has a proper course, and thus the exceptions to rule 18 in rule 18.1 do not apply and rule 18, specifically rule 18.2( a ) applies?

For B to be required to give Y room not to tack into the floating buoy, doesn't B need to be required to give Y room under some rule: 15, 16, or 18?

Second part first Yes 15 or 16 would have to apply.
Crossing the line is not the sole determinant of finishing, you have to clear the marks.
Case 132 is not applicable do not read extra into what is not there.

MIke,

You appear to be saying that 'finishing' somehow includes both the definition of finish and the definition of racing.

As far as I can see in this case, the only fact relevant to a boat finishing according to the definition of finish is that some part of her hull, or crew or equipment in normal position, crosses the finishing line from the course side.

The only relevance 'clear the marks' has is in respect to whether a boat is racing,which is a different issue from whether she has finished or not.

What 'extra' do you say I am reading into Case 132?

I agree, but it no use finishing if whilst still racing you are disqualified.
I have no difficulty, this is a beat to windward and there is no 18.
There is no question of overstanding or the other matters raised.

John,

Have to disagree with you on case 132. Where does the case say that a boat with no proper course is NOT on a beat to windward?

OK John .. I slept on it and am ready to take a whack at it.

I will argue that .. yes .. Case 132 applies to both of these boats to determine if one or both of them are on a beat to windward. But I will argue that what Case 132 is providing is a way to determine what course represents a beat to windward given the current wind direction and conditions.

Therefore, we can look at Green and Yellow as they approach each other and enter the zone, and we can use Case 132 to determine if each boat is on a "beat to windward".

Once determined, unless a substantial change in wind direction or speed occurs, or either boat falls off her course in a substantial way, both boats remain on a beat to windward. My argument applied to our scenario, Green remains on a "beat", even if she needs to luff-up to avoid the RC as she continues ..... and therefore RRS 18 does not apply.

Now, I'd admit, my defense above is nearly indistinguishable from describing a close-hauled-course. The only difference between the two it appears is that a beat includes all those courses from close-hauled to above ... so therefore there is a difference still.

Ang

Mike, Dave,

I'm convinced.

Case 132 is an example not a Definition.

Angelo,

Not too sure.

I think once Y clears the finishing line and marks, THEN she is no longer on a beat to windward, but by then it hardly matters.

Maybe just add the word “racing” after “finish” in Case 132 and it makes it clear?

”A boat is “on a beat to windward” when the course she would sail to finish and finish racing as soon as possible ...”

Ang

Cata,

I'm now persuaded that Y is still on a beat to windward when she crosses the finishing line and still needs to sail close hsuled or above at least to clear the finishing line and marks, so rule 18 does not apply.

How does right of way change when Y crosses the finishing line so as to make rule 15 apply?

Angelo

Mere mortals like you and I don't get to change Cases.

Case 132 ic an example, doubtles the most common example, but the situation with Y above is another less common example.. There may be still others we haven't dreamt of yet.