Note: This forum is not affiliated with World Sailing and comments on this forum do not represent an official interpretation of the rules, definitions, cases or regulations. The only official interpretations are those of World Sailing.
Yellow-Orange-Green are approaching a spreader mark on halfwind course, having to round the mark on port and head downwind. The type of boat are 20 meter classic bargers with 160m2 sail, movin at 7+kts in a 4 Bft wind.
- At position 3 Yellow enters the zone and has (creates) overlap with both Orange and Green - Orange and Green are not overlapped and Green reaches the zone (3.5) before Orange
- At 3 Yellow however suddenly steers windward strongly despite having enough Mark room, above course required to round the Mark. - Orange reacts, heads up and so gets an undesired accelleration as she has to pull in the mainsheet (boom = 16 meters!) to avoid contact with Yellow. - However, Orange now gets stuck between Green and Yellow due to the accelleration, whereas she was steering to remain clear on the stern of Green and alos Yellow. - At 4 Orange has to steer leeward to avoid the boom and contact of Green, but cannot steer deeper since Yellow is below her bow. Crossin upward and aft behind Green was not possible without contact.
At 5 - Orange manages to stay clear of both Yellow and Green by close to an inch on both steering the only possible room left. Green is not providing much room to avoid collision, but simply keeps steering leeward towards the mark, hailing to Orange that she has right on Room at the mark. Green sets a protest on Orange, hails protest and sets the B-flag.
Im am interested in your opinions on how this whole situation can be regarded within the Rules of Racing. To what extend are rules 18, 16, 15, 14, 11 here in play? What protest(s) can or should be set, besides the protest of Green versus Orange. And what would be the overall outcome.
Take into consideration that these are slow-manouevrable bargers with large turn-radius (see below pricture)
One of those cases where key facts would be more difficult to determine on the water. How was Yellow's overlap with green established. At 1, they are less than 2 boat lengths apart so it appears rule 17 is on between yellow and green. Does orange have mark room from green? In the diagram, no, but would it be clear on the water that the overlap at 1 and 2 was broken in time.
Does yellow sail above her proper course at 3. I think she does but I do not know the boats.
Yellow breaks rule 17 with regard to green, sailing above proper course. Orange not entitled to mark room from green, breaks 18.2a. Not caused by yellow breaking rule 17, Orange should have luffed outside green earlier. Being on a course to leeward of green she was always going to deny mark room as green bears away to round.
Yellow has mark room on Orange and green. Yellow is entitled to luff (not sure on green) as she is the ROW boat but is subject to RRS 16.1 Yellow can only luff orange if she has the right to luff Green and we do not know how this overlap came about. If orange who does not have mark room on Green causes green to alter course she has not given mark room.
Basically, i believe yellow was ok as a row boat but I am concerned with the "suddenly steers". Green gives mark room to yellow and avoids contact.
Orange had no right to go in there and fail's to give mark room to Green.
Yellow-Orange-Green are approaching a spreader mark on halfwind course, having to round the mark on port and head downwind. The type of boat are 20 meter classic bargers with 160m2 sail, movin at 7+kts in a 4 Bft wind.
- At position 3 Yellow enters the zone and has (creates) overlap with both Orange and Green
Assuming that RRS 17 does NOT apply
- Orange and Green are not overlapped and Green reaches the zone (3.5) before Orange
G is required to keep clear of Y (RRS 11), O is required to keep clear of Y and G (RRS 12)
G, overlapped outside, and O, clear astern, are required to give Y mark-room (G, by RRS 18.2(a)(1), O by RRS 18.2(a)(2).
- At 3 Yellow however suddenly steers windward strongly despite having enough Mark room, above course required to round the Mark.
Y, a right of way boat changing course is required to give Y and O room to keep clear (RRS 16.1)
Y is sailing outside the mark-room to which she is entitled and will not be exonerated if she breaks RRS 16.1.
- Orange reacts, heads up and so gets an undesired accelleration as she has to pull in the mainsheet (boom = 16 meters!) to avoid contact with Yellow. - However, Orange now gets stuck between Green and Yellow due to the acceleration,
G is required to keep clear of Y (RRS 11) and give her mark room (RRS 18.2(a)(1)) O is required to keep clear of Y (RRS 11) and give her mark-room (RRS 18.2(a)(2), G is required to keep clear of O (RRS 11), O is required to initially to give G room to keep clear (RRS 15)
When G reaches the zone, O is required to give her mark-room (RRS 18.2(a)(2) if Orange is clear astern, RRS 18.2(a)(1) if O has become overlaped.
whereas she was steering to remain clear on the stern of Green and alos Yellow.
- At 4 Orange has to steer leeward to avoid the boom and contact of Green, but cannot steer deeper since Yellow is below her bow. Crossin upward and aft behind Green was not possible without contact.
At 5 - Orange manages to stay clear of both Yellow and Green by close to an inch on both steering the only possible room left.
No right of way boat takes any action to avoid a give way boat: no boat breaks a right of way rule.
There is no contact between boats. Every boat has had room to keep clear.
No boat has broken RRS 16.1 or 15.
Green is not providing much room to avoid collision,
Green has no obligation to give any boat room to do anything.
Green is required to avoid contact if reasonably possible (RRS 14). There is no contact. No boat breaks RRS 14.
but simply keeps steering leeward towards the mark, hailing to Orange that she has right on Room at the mark. Green sets a protest on Orange, hails protest and sets the B-flag.
O is required to give G mark-room (RRS 18.2(a)(1) or (2): that is, initially, room to sail to the mark, without breaking RRS 11 with respect to Y
So, I think G's mark-room is to follow Y down to the mark as closely as she wants to.
Between @4 and @5, I think O is preventing G from doing that.
So O does not give G mark-room. O breaks RRS 18.2(a)(1) or (2).
Im am interested in your opinions on how this whole situation can be regarded within the Rules of Racing. To what extend are rules 18, 16, 15, 14, 11 here in play?
See above.
No right of way boat takes avoiding action. RRS 11 (and RRS 12) are not broken.
Y, a right of way boat changing course was required to give O and G room to keep clear (RRS 16.1). O and G kept clear and Y did not break RRS 16.1.
O acquiring right of way was initially required to give G room to keep clar (RRS 15). G kept clear and O did not break RRS 15.
There was no contact. No boat broke RRS 14.
O and G gave Y mark-room.
O did not give G mark-room. O broke RRS 18.2(a)(1) or (2).
What protest(s) can or should be set, besides the protest of Green versus Orange. And what would be the overall outcome.
O could have protested Y for breaking RRS 16.1. I think that absence of contact is evidence that room was given.
I'd be interested to hear from Jos Spykerman and other bargees how they feel about that.
Take into consideration that these are slow-manouevrable bargers with large turn-radius (see below pricture)
Suppose that between @4 and @5 there had been contact. That would then tell us that room had not been given.
All boats are changing course, so it would depend on which boats made contact how it played out.
The key question here is did Yellow give Orange space to comply with her obligations including space to give Green mark-room as Yellow is required to do under RRS 16.1
From the diagram, I would have said yes, but from the testimony, I am less certain
In the diagram, the turn that yellow makes begins at 2.6, while Orange does not begin turning until 3.6
in the testimony, the turn is described as "sudden" however, there is no description of how Orange steers.
in the testimony, I note that yellow turns at 3, but that Orange is still clear astern at 3.5 when Green reaches the zone clear ahead.
It is also stated that there was time to pull in the sail (manual sheeting), but there does not seem to have been as much effort to put the helm to leeward
-Since I don't know the boats, I would need to determine whether it is harder to steer than to sheet in. -I would also ask if Yellow might need to swing wide (to windward) in order to sail her proper course to the mark, given the lumbering nature of the boats?
Regardless of the outcome of this case, I would recommend to the Orange boat, that the new rules allow clear-ahead boats to really take lots of room and time while rounding offset marks. I personally believe it is a serious rules problem. However, given the rules, as a clear-astern boat, I would want to be going behind, outside, and possibly slow any time I'm following a clear-ahead boat into that mark-zone... and this might need to start at 4 or 5 boat-length in order to have enough room to maneuver a big boat.
Summary of facts and conclusions:
Y is leeward and inside and/or clear ahead at the zone: has mark-room and ROW. May exercise both rights. Must comply with 16.1 if sailing outside her mark-room
G is clear ahead at the zone... has mark-room. Initially has ROW, but that changes once O is overlapped inside.
Y changes course sharply to windward at 3
O changes course slightly to windward at 3.6, while maintaining a fully trimmed sail and becomes overlapped with G shortly thereafter
O does not give mark-room to G
should we exonerate O based on sailing within her room given by 16.1?
The more I think about this, the more I just don't understand how O was ever going to be able to give G mark-room if she wasn't already sailing behind G at point 3.5. She is keep-clear on both boats at that point, and also owes both mark-room... she should be allowing them more room to maneuver, including to slow down, and to take the long, slow turns that these boats require to round the marks in a seamanlike manner.
Does yellow sail above her proper course at 3. I think she does but I do not know the boats.
Yellow breaks rule 17 with regard to green, sailing above proper course. Orange not entitled to mark room from green, breaks 18.2a. Not caused by yellow breaking rule 17, Orange should have luffed outside green earlier. Being on a course to leeward of green she was always going to deny mark room as green bears away to round.
Yellow has mark room on Orange and green.
Yellow is entitled to luff (not sure on green) as she is the ROW boat but is subject to RRS 16.1
Yellow can only luff orange if she has the right to luff Green and we do not know how this overlap came about.
If orange who does not have mark room on Green causes green to alter course she has not given mark room.
Basically, i believe yellow was ok as a row boat but I am concerned with the "suddenly steers".
Green gives mark room to yellow and avoids contact.
Orange had no right to go in there and fail's to give mark room to Green.
Assuming that RRS 17 does NOT apply
G is required to keep clear of Y (RRS 11), O is required to keep clear of Y and G (RRS 12)
G, overlapped outside, and O, clear astern, are required to give Y mark-room (G, by RRS 18.2(a)(1), O by RRS 18.2(a)(2).
Y, a right of way boat changing course is required to give Y and O room to keep clear (RRS 16.1)
Y is sailing outside the mark-room to which she is entitled and will not be exonerated if she breaks RRS 16.1.
G is required to keep clear of Y (RRS 11) and give her mark room (RRS 18.2(a)(1))
O is required to keep clear of Y (RRS 11) and give her mark-room (RRS 18.2(a)(2),
G is required to keep clear of O (RRS 11), O is required to initially to give G room to keep clear (RRS 15)
When G reaches the zone, O is required to give her mark-room (RRS 18.2(a)(2) if Orange is clear astern, RRS 18.2(a)(1) if O has become overlaped.
No right of way boat takes any action to avoid a give way boat: no boat breaks a right of way rule.
There is no contact between boats. Every boat has had room to keep clear.
No boat has broken RRS 16.1 or 15.
Green has no obligation to give any boat room to do anything.
Green is required to avoid contact if reasonably possible (RRS 14). There is no contact. No boat breaks RRS 14.
O is required to give G mark-room (RRS 18.2(a)(1) or (2): that is, initially, room to sail to the mark, without breaking RRS 11 with respect to Y
So, I think G's mark-room is to follow Y down to the mark as closely as she wants to.
Between @4 and @5, I think O is preventing G from doing that.
So O does not give G mark-room. O breaks RRS 18.2(a)(1) or (2).
See above.
No right of way boat takes avoiding action. RRS 11 (and RRS 12) are not broken.
Y, a right of way boat changing course was required to give O and G room to keep clear (RRS 16.1). O and G kept clear and Y did not break RRS 16.1.
O acquiring right of way was initially required to give G room to keep clar (RRS 15). G kept clear and O did not break RRS 15.
There was no contact. No boat broke RRS 14.
O and G gave Y mark-room.
O did not give G mark-room. O broke RRS 18.2(a)(1) or (2).
O could have protested Y for breaking RRS 16.1. I think that absence of contact is evidence that room was given.
I'd be interested to hear from Jos Spykerman and other bargees how they feel about that.
Suppose that between @4 and @5 there had been contact. That would then tell us that room had not been given.
All boats are changing course, so it would depend on which boats made contact how it played out.
From the diagram, I would have said yes, but from the testimony, I am less certain
-Since I don't know the boats, I would need to determine whether it is harder to steer than to sheet in.
-I would also ask if Yellow might need to swing wide (to windward) in order to sail her proper course to the mark, given the lumbering nature of the boats?
Regardless of the outcome of this case, I would recommend to the Orange boat, that the new rules allow clear-ahead boats to really take lots of room and time while rounding offset marks. I personally believe it is a serious rules problem. However, given the rules, as a clear-astern boat, I would want to be going behind, outside, and possibly slow any time I'm following a clear-ahead boat into that mark-zone... and this might need to start at 4 or 5 boat-length in order to have enough room to maneuver a big boat.
Summary of facts and conclusions:
The more I think about this, the more I just don't understand how O was ever going to be able to give G mark-room if she wasn't already sailing behind G at point 3.5. She is keep-clear on both boats at that point, and also owes both mark-room... she should be allowing them more room to maneuver, including to slow down, and to take the long, slow turns that these boats require to round the marks in a seamanlike manner.