Forum: Rules 2 and 69

What makes on-the-water shouting become "bad manners" or "unsporting"?

Douglas McKnight
Nationality: United States
Certifications:
  • Club Race Officer
  • Club Judge
Greetings,
Is there anywhere to find guidance on what level of on-the-water shouting becomes unacceptably bad manners, or unsporting? 
The scenario has a competitor on Starboard, who wants to tack on to Port (due to hitting the layline, in his opinion), but is pinned by a boat about a boat length to windward and a little behind who doesn't want to tack. The wind was strong.
Instead of maneuvering in one of the obvious (but annoying) ways to create room to tack, the leeward boat starts yelling "tack!" "we have to tack!" "tack!" in a way that could perhaps(?) be considered rude/intimidating/bullying/obnoxious. He did not shout "room to tack", which may be a different matter. 
If Windward was an experienced sailor they would just ignore him, or tell him to shut up. A less experienced sailor might think they have to tack due to an experienced racer yelling at them like this. It reminds me a little of case 47 (hailing Starboard, while on port) though obviously not as serious. 

Any pointers to relevant cases, examples, etc, would be much appreciated. Could this rise to being a rule 69 violation?
Cheers,
Doug
Created: 22-Oct-27 10:36

Comments

Henry Pedro
Nationality: Canada
Certifications:
  • Fleet Measurer
  • Club Race Officer
0
I can't think of a rules-based reason why the leeward boat would demand a tack in that situation.  The layline is not an obstruction so "room to tack" does not apply.
It can amount to intimidation if taken the wrong way by the leeward boat.
Sadly, on-the-water intimidation occurs all the time, especially by older experienced sailors who are found in un-favourable situations by rookie or less experienced sailors and may feel hard-done-by.   (usually mark rounding or proper course situations, but on more than one occasion I've heard an experienced sailor yell "starboard" while he was on port tack and the inexperienced starboard tack sailor panics and tacks away) 
In may of those cases the less experienced sailors acquiesce, most of the time to their detriment. 
Created: 22-Oct-27 11:04
Gordon Davies
Nationality: Ireland
Certifications:
  • International Judge
1
WS Case 138 gives a list of actions thatshould be considered as misconduct.
This includes:
- bullying, discriminatory behaviour and intimidation
- Foul or abusive language that causes or may cause offence.

APPENDIX F: PRINCIPLES OFSPORTSMANSHIP & FAIR PLAY in the WS Misconduct Guidance includes the following as examples of breaches of recognised principles of sportsmanship and fair play :

- bullying, intimidating or harassing others
- verbal abuse, unnecessary shouting or foul language
- deliberately making misleading hails

Appendix A of the WS MIsconduct Guidance states:

Bad language (including that not directed towards an official) has to be judged in this context. If you are uncomfortable with the language being used, then action should be taken. It is quite
proper for clubs and organisers to make clear before an event that the use of inappropriate language will lead to rule 69 action. If the organisers have made this statement, then the protest
committee should be prepared to enforce the standards expected. However, if an event or club has tolerated such language in the past, then a single incident of bad language should not trigger
rule 69 action. This is not to condone such a language, but World Sailing supports the principle that clubs and event must set and improve their own standards.


In this case if the crew of the windward boat felt uncomfortable with the hails and the the language being used they should protest under rule 2 (as this is an on the water incident that directly involves the competition). A race committee, or protest committee member who witnessed the incident could also protest.

The WS Guidance makes an imprtatnt point - organisers (and I would add: race officials) should make clear that innappropriate language, bullying, intimidation etc will not be tolerated. This is especially important in youth and junior events.
Created: 22-Oct-27 12:24
P
Angelo Guarino
Certifications:
  • Regional Judge
  • Fleet Measurer
0
Doug, as a US Sailing Judge, we have recently received guidance on how USS would like us to proceed, document and report potential Rule 69 violations.

The first step is to reach out to your Regional Admin Judge (RAJ) and have a discussion. They can both help guide you on suggested next steps and importantly, if need be, line-up a judge experienced in Rule 69 proceedings to help guide you and your team.  Here is a map showing the US Sailing Regions ..



You can find your RAJ here: https://www.ussailing.org/about/our-people/committee-directory/judges-committee/

You could also ask around to your local judge-mentors and ask if there is a local judge who has chaired a Rule 69 hearing and reach out to them for guidance. 
Created: 22-Oct-27 13:33
Eric Meyn
Nationality: United States
0
This seems like something to handle sailor to sailor ashore.  Unless the shouting is over the top just profane and abusive.  But emphatic or even angry shouting by a sailor that's just wrong is just noise.  In my mind, I'm using their unfounded anger against them as a tactic. And if they are truly trying to use their volume as a way to take advantage of you, then their frustration also becomes my advantage.  And as long as you taking them well past the lay line isn't a rules violation and doesn't hurt your placing, then go for it.  As far as actually protesting the behavior, you'd have to either have video or witnesses that were able to repeat specifically what was said.  All my opinion and very subjective.
Created: 22-Oct-27 13:48
P
Angelo Guarino
Certifications:
  • Regional Judge
  • Fleet Measurer
1
Doug, without knowing all the details, I’d like to segue off of your OP and Gordon’s spot-on post and walk down “practicality road” a bit.

From your OP, it appears that the windward boat did not file a Rule 2 protest. If they had, there should have been a hearing and a decision arrived at. 

So, now it comes down to how did you learn about this incident?  

If a person came to the RC or a member of the PC and made a formal report alleging misconduct, then the PC should meet and discuss how to proceed, as Gordon points out, taking into consideration the standards set by the club, the class or event.  A competitor who seeks out a race official and makes a report has demonstrated that they thought it reached a serious level in the reporting person’s mind.

On the other hand, if I was just chatting at the bar and a person who describes your situation above and that it made them feel a little uncomfortable, then I might ask them what they’d like me to do with that info … 
  • consider this a report of misconduct and start a process (in which case I’d ask them to put it writing and deliver to the PC), 
  • something less formal (maybe I’d offer to broker a discussion between the boats), or 
  • take no action at all.

For instance, I’m a member of the Annapolis J/105 fleet. Our fleet has a bit of a reputation of being ….uhhhh … a bit “spirited” at times shall we say.  It is not uncommon to have complaints hurled between boats …

“Come’on .. we’re way past the layline!!! You are screwing us both!!”
“Where the he## are you taking us?!?!?”
“What the h#*$ were you thinking!?!? You had no room!!!!” 

In our local Fleet, that is par for the course.

That said, i was once called an a%%hole by a competitor when I was the leeward boat limited under 17 and he was windward and wanted to sail deeper than I wanted to.  After the race, I approached him and we discussed our wind-angles at that time and I reminded him of what he said and he immediately apologized. It’s never happened again.

So, call your RAJ, but also ask the complainant what they would like to see happen. It might be that all they want is someone to talk to the other boat on their behalf and they didn’t want or intend to start a 69 process. 
Created: 22-Oct-27 14:36
Douglas McKnight
Nationality: United States
Certifications:
  • Club Race Officer
  • Club Judge
0
Thanks for the responses, all.

Henry: Completely agree on the rules stuff. But, I think, if a sailor deliberately yells Starboard, while they were on Port (other than an obvious joke) to make an inexperienced sailor tack away, then that's a foul. See case 47.

Gordon: Yup, these are the words I'm staring at... it was "unnecessary shouting" but there wasn't "bad language". If he'd said "F****** Tack you f****g a*****, then I would have no problem reaching a defensible position.  Since people have engaged with the topic, I may flesh out some more details, but the crux of the problem is where's that line? And, I think it's expected that the line is drawn in different places in different circumstances, e.g. adult yelling at junior. 

Angelo: Thanks. I'm trying to gather as much context as I can before reaching out for guidance. I see you just added more. I'll comment there.

Eric: I wasn't involved in the incident, and the shouting wouldn't have bothered me. However, it did bother the person who was shouted at... It wasn't profane, as such, but the recipient of the shouting did think it was "over the top".  As one of the club "grey-beards" I am trying to help with establishing the lines between "excited competitive chat" versus "being a bit of a dick, in a way that may discourage participation in club races".

Created: 22-Oct-27 14:49
Fields Gunsett
Nationality: United States
Certifications:
  • National Judge
  • Regional Race Officer
0
Please review the guidance provided by World Sailing on this topic - https://www.sailing.org/tools/documents/WorldSailingMisconductGuidanceJuly2021-[22804].pdf
Created: 22-Oct-27 15:03
Gordon Davies
Nationality: Ireland
Certifications:
  • International Judge
2
I believe that all race officials have an obligation to educate all participants in events. In some cases this educational role does not need to pass through formal procedures.
In this case if, as a judge I learnt informally about this incident, but no protest or report had been received,  then one way to deal with it could be to discuss the incident with the over-vociferous sailor. That person understanding that there are standards of acceptable behaviour, and the consequences of going beyond those standards may be a satisfactory outcome.

A key point is that acceptable standards should be made clear (and those standards may vary - for instance I would be very strict at youth and junior events ,both in regard to the sailors and their support persons). For instannc at student team racing events on the subject of dissent I usually say that a short, forceful expression of disappointment at an umpire's decsion will be tolerated, on condition that the expression does not question either the competence or the parentage of the umpire. Further comment will be met with an instruction to sail on, and if dissent continues a peanlty will be given. This generally raises a laugh and sets the boundaries.

Created: 22-Oct-27 15:07
Tim Hohmann
Nationality: United States
Certifications:
  • Umpire In Training
  • Regional Judge
0
A less experienced sailor might think they have to tack due to an experienced racer yelling at them like this. It reminds me a little of case 47 (hailing Starboard, while on port) though obviously not as serious.

To some degree I think inexperienced competitors pay a bit of a "tax" for their inexperience in racing generally and particularly with rules knowledge. But I'd say that if it's repeated and egregious behavior any boat in the fleet could protest alleging a rule 2 violation. Case 47 establishes the principle that picking on a noob is not fair sailing.

I once had the loser of a protest complain on Facebook about how he'd been "f***ed in the a**" by the PC at [yacht club name]. It got handled with a talking to, but certainly could have been a 69 I think.
Created: 22-Oct-27 15:24
Gijs Vlas
Nationality: Netherlands
0
Ben Ainslie - Finn
I still wonder why Ben Ainslie commented like below after attacking media journalists at the World's in Perth:
"I think it is a massive overreaction to what was obviously an incident," Ainslie said. "I'm very sorry that the jury decided to react the way they did over something which really wasn't as big as it was blown up to be."

I am also strong supporter for having a 1-on-1 talk with someone who rudely swears in a racing situation, but when its is an obvious habit I would file a formal protest the next time he/she does it.
False hailing - the same, have a discussion first, next time 69
Etc 

The linkt to the document released by World Sailing is great guidance as mentioned earlier.
https://www.sailing.org/tools/documents/WorldSailingMisconductGuidanceJuly2021-[22804].pdf
Created: 22-Oct-28 14:11
P
Angelo Guarino
Certifications:
  • Regional Judge
  • Fleet Measurer
0
The following is being posted with permission of US Sailing.  It is basically the content of an email sent to all certified US Sailing Judges in Oct 2022. 

From US Sailing to its judges:

“The Judges Committee requests that judges report findings of misconduct by boat owners, competitors or support persons that do not rise to the level of mandatory reporting under RRS 69.2(j). The purpose of this reporting is to ensure that protest committees are aware of prior PC decisions in the rare instances of repeated misconduct.

At the link below, you will find a guidance document from the Judges Committee that explains the rationale and process and contains a link to a brief “Misconduct Information or Report” form.

A few points:
  • Reports will be held in confidence by US Sailing and disclosed only upon request to a PC that has determined that a person has committed misconduct.
  • The Misconduct Information Guidance is not mandatory and does not change rule 69.
  • World Sailing is considering a submission from the Dutch MNA to amend rule 69.2(j) to require that all penalties and warnings be reported to the MNA.
  • Misconduct hearings should be undertaken only by highly experienced, trained judges. If you receive a report of misconduct, please do not proceed without first contacting your RAJ for guidance and support.

You can find the misconduct information & reporting document on the Judges page.
Also, here is a link to the WS Misconduct Guidance.”
Created: 22-Oct-28 18:06
Jim Dinger
Nationality: Australia
0
As a recreational inland racer, and a non-licensed PRO at times, I understand the issue with abusive language. We have/had one such individual and have put a statement in our daily SI's that abusive language will immediately disqualify a boat from the event.  That said, I'm a bit confused by some of the above posts inferring that the starboard-tack, leeward boat had no right to demand room to tack to port.  If the leeward boat is doing so in "sailing a proper course" to the mark, why wouldn't it have the right to require the windward boat to give it room to do so?  Yep, I know I'm way out of my league wrt knowledge of the above commenters;  just trying to get a handle on the numerous nuisances in RRS.  Oh, I'm not an Aussie; Kentuckian to be exact.

Created: 22-Oct-30 18:50
Tim Hohmann
Nationality: United States
Certifications:
  • Umpire In Training
  • Regional Judge
0
Jim, leeward had no right to tack just because she perceived herself to be on layline. If they're not in the zone there's no question of mark-room and even if there was (assuming port rounding) seems like windward would be inside boat until she tacked. Leeward could take windward up to head to wind and sit there, but that's about it. As soon as leeward passes HTW she's tacking and loses ROW. 

Probably the move in that situation would be for leeward to come down a little to create enough space to swing, then tack & duck. Or just yell at the other boat and hope you can convince them not to screw both boats...
Created: 22-Oct-30 19:15
Jim Dinger
Nationality: Australia
0
Tim, thanks for responding.  I understand that the layline is not an issue.  What I was referring to is if the leeward boat is making the tack and is so doing wrt to "sailing a proper course" to the mark, why is not the windward boat the give-way vessel?
Created: 22-Oct-30 20:53
Tim Hohmann
Nationality: United States
Certifications:
  • Umpire In Training
  • Regional Judge
0
Windward is give way, but only up to HTW. If leeward tacks she becomes give way under 13 & then 10, and if both tack then windward & leeward switch. 

Leeward can force windward up to HTW but can't compel her to tack. 
Created: 22-Oct-30 23:06
P
Angelo Guarino
Certifications:
  • Regional Judge
  • Fleet Measurer
0
Tim re: “Leeward can force windward up to HTW but can't compel her to tack.”

I was reading this last statement above and thought that someone might interpret it the wrong way (though I understand what you are saying).  Maybe it’s just the word “compel”.

A leeward boat can turn up to head to wind.  As long as leeward doesn’t pass HTW and gives windward room to keep clear under 16.1 as she changed course into the wind, if windward is coming to a stop and loosing way, she may have no choice but to (feel compelled to) pass HtW to maintain maneuverability and to keep clear, that’s fair game and no foul on leeward. 

It’s just that leeward can’t pass HtW before windward does and force windward to pass HtW to keep clear. 
Created: 22-Nov-01 13:47
Tim Hohmann
Nationality: United States
Certifications:
  • Umpire In Training
  • Regional Judge
1
Yes, Angelo, I think we're agreed. Leeward can put windward in a situation where she has few (or no) viable options other than tacking. But leeward can't make windward tack by wishing or yelling it so.
Created: 22-Nov-03 02:50
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