Forum: Rule 18 and Room at the Mark

Sailing clear for Penalty Turn.

John Beavis
Nationality: New Zealand

This question relates to IOM radio controlled yachts.

This weekend we had an incident in one of our club races, it happened at the windward and separation marks, the distance between the marks was about 6 boat lengths.
Boat A rounded the windward mark (port rounding) and beared away to the separation mark, the course was approx 90 degrees to the wind with Boat B just behind, her boom touched the mark and a call was made, the skipper of B don’t hear the call initially, it was repeated several times.

Boat B catch some extra breeze and got and an overlap to leeward of B, about ¾’s of the leg between the marks A heard the call of “Mark Contact”.

At the separation mark A called that he was going to sail clear to do the penalty turn and continued straight pass the mark and B started to bear off and hit A.

This caused and pond side discussion which there carried on in the clubhouse on the whiteboard, the general consensus was, A should have bore away after past the mark and did the turn inside the course.

Question 1 can A continue straight on in clear water to do the turn, fine if there are no boats to weather of him or should he beared away around the separation mark and gybed into the center of the course where there not boats.

Question 2 A had enough time to bear off before the separation mark done his turn and joined back in before the separation mark.

Question 3 Sailing clear to do the turn does Boat A have rights, such as keeping B to sail above her course to the next mark (both boats had past the separation mark)?

Created: 18-Jun-17 10:55

Comments

John Ball
Nationality: Canada
0
R44.2 is not changed by Appendix E. It requires that the penalty be 'as soon as possible'. so you don't get to cherry pick when to begin the penalty to minimize any loss. If there is a boat on one side of you, preventing you from turning that way, then turn the other way. If there are boats on both sides, then slow down to get clear. So if it is possible to drop down below the rhumb line between the weather and offset marks and be clear, then you fail to comply with R44.2 by sailing on just to get beyond the offset because you have not taken the first possible opportunity.
So my answer to Q1 is No,
I cannot see a question is Q2.
For Q3, the boat still has full rights until it starts to take the penalty. But it cannot sail on, keeping the other boat outside when it could begin the penalty by turning the other way. Similar to the discussion about sailing a boat off the course, this could lead to an R 2 protest.
And a late taken penalty is no penalty - you should retire or be DSQ for the original infraction.

John
Created: 18-Jun-17 16:45
P
John Mooney
Certifications:
  • International Judge
  • National Judge
  • Regional Race Officer
0
John, in order to answer your question, I have several questions for you. Some are due to being unfamiliar with IOM models boats and the background conditions of the incident:

a) What was the wind and sea state?
b) How maneuverable are these boats (How quickly can they turn, and how tight a turn is possible for a "reasonably well-prepared boat and a reasonably competent sailor"?
c) How fast do they go in these conditions?
d) How long are they?
e) You don't say if this race is being run with observers, but your discussion of hearing a "...call of 'Mark Contact'" seems to imply them. Were there observers?

More importantly, though, it's because there appear to be a couple of typos, and I'm confused by the incident description, to wit:

1) It is not clear to me whether boat A or boat B's boom hit the mark. I assume from later discussion you meant A, but could you confirm?
2) If A hit the mark, why do we care if or when B's skipper heard "the call"? Did A hear it, and did she hear it immediately?
3) Who made the call of "Mark Contact", and was it made properly (according to E2.1)?
4) You say "Boat B catch some extra breeze and got and an overlap to leeward of B" -- She can't get an overlap on herself - what does this mean???
5) Did A hear the call 3/4 of the distance from windward mark to offset, or did B gain her overlap at that point? Please clarify: when was the hail heard, and when was the overlap established (and by whom)?
6) At the separation mark, was A or B inside and to leeward?
7) If B got an overlap to leeward of A, how did B hit A by bearing off after the mark?

I've tried a couple of times to diagram this situation, and without some clarification, I can't do it. Please help!
Created: 18-Jun-17 21:08
John Ball
Nationality: Canada
0
For those of you not familiar with RC sailing, here is a video of International One Meters (IOMs) racing to the weather mark and to the offset. This detail lasts for about 10 seconds.
IOMs are one meter long and travel at about 1 boat length per second. On the reach to the offset, frequently they will go on a full plane at double the speed. An IOM can make a penalty turn in about three seconds.

https://youtu.be/owoQlCrxxuQ?t=237

and another view of a weather mark to offset mark

https://youtu.be/UIBMw4oL73I?t=162

John
Created: 18-Jun-17 21:38
P
John Mooney
Certifications:
  • International Judge
  • National Judge
  • Regional Race Officer
0
Thanks, John, that goes a long way to answering my general questions (and certainly illustrates my lack of familiarity with IOMs, since I had to ask how long they are! :) )

I assume that if an IOM does a penalty turn in about 3 seconds and travels at about 1 BL/sec., that a penalty turn describes a rough circle about 1.5-2 BL in diameter? Does that represent the skills of a world class helmsman, or an average skill level? (I don't actually think this makes a difference in the present case, but I'm curious.)
Created: 18-Jun-18 09:14
John Ball
Nationality: Canada
0
Average skill level.

John
Created: 18-Jun-18 13:31
Philip Hubbell
Nationality: United States
Certifications:
  • Club Race Officer
  • Judge In Training
0
1. Bear in mind that in a tightly packed race a RC boat sandwiched between a windward and leeward boat might require half a leg to slow down enough to clear for a penalty turn without further violation.
2. We have seen elsewhere that an OCS boat wanting to return to restart does have luffing rights to make room to turn back.
How is this situation different? "Sailing on with a boat outside" should be okay only insofar as getting clear of the bulk of the fleet and creating room to bear away into a penalty turn.
After viewing John's diagram, I should add that, in the absence of other boats, A is obligated to bear away as soon as possible to begin her turns. If she delays, she has rights but she is then no longer entitled to alternative penalty turns. She must take a scoring penalty or defend herself before the PC.
And Yes, regarding Q2, if she acknowledged her error and had room to bear away between the marks, she must do so. Or lose the alternative penalty opportunity.
Created: 18-Jun-19 18:52
P
John Mooney
Certifications:
  • International Judge
  • National Judge
  • Regional Race Officer
0
If I understand the situation correctly, after hitting the windward mark with her boom, A passes the separation mark inside and to leeward of B, and continues straight on ahead to get away from other boats and make her turns. After passing the separation mark, B turns down and makes contact with A's windward side. Given the short distance and the pace of these boats, and the fact that it took some time for A to be aware of her contact, I don't see that A took any more time than was necessary to get clear and do her turns. If B's overlap was established when A was 3/4 of 6 boat lengths from the windward mark, A was 1.5 BL from the separation mark, and was clear ahead when she entered the zone. If the overlap was established outside the zone, A was still the inside boat, and either way, she had both rights (Rule 10) and mark room (Rule 18.2(b)). She loses none of those rights until she begins to take her penalty, so she was entitled to go where she pleased until that time.

When she bore away and made contact with A, B broke both Rule 10 and Rule 18.2(b), as well as Rule 14. A broke no rule that I can see. B is DSQ.

Disclaimer: I may have misunderstood the incident...
Created: 18-Jun-20 22:43
John Ball
Nationality: Canada
0
I think this diagram represents the incident in the original post.

John
Created: 18-Jun-21 00:37
P
John Mooney
Certifications:
  • International Judge
  • National Judge
  • Regional Race Officer
0
I think so too, but...???. Boat Scenario diagram, yes? The only issue I would take with your diagram is that it looks to me like for some reason, your zones are more than four lengths, and the separation between the marks is greater than six lengths. If the incident occurred as we understand it, the zone size is immaterial, but the separation could matter.
Created: 18-Jun-21 06:21
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