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Rule 18(3) - versus Rule 16(2) rounding a mark
Gijs Vlas
Nationality: Netherlands
0
- Yellow and Blue are approaching the upwind mark to be left on Port - Overlap is present while entering the zone - Yellow has over-sailed the mark and sails below close-hauled - Blue is tacking close on the stern of Yellow (18.3 into effect) but stays clear - Yellow bears off rounding the mark (establishing overlap with blue) and touches the forestay of blue with her boom - Hails protest !
Which boat is in the wrong? - Blue for tacking in the zone (18.3) - although she never pushed yellow above close hauled? - Yellow for changing course, creating overlap as windward boat to blue .....
I wonder if in a protest room a comite would take the mark out of consideration, i.e. removing the mark from the scene, and what that would lead to? Two boats, one tacks below on the stern, the other bears off.... (16.2)
Created: 23-Apr-24 16:14
Comments
William White
Nationality: Canada
Certifications:
Club Judge
0
i think this is clearly an 18.3 and as blue tacked inside the zone no entitlement to mark room applies
Created: 23-Apr-24 16:49
Loic Durand Raucher
Nationality: France
Certifications:
National Judge
National Umpire
6
Gils, Until postion 2.5, rule 18 doesn't apply (18.1.a) Your assertion " Overlap is present while entering the zone " is wrong (see definition Overlap) From postion 2.5, Blue has passed head to wind and 18.3 applies, as well as Sections A and B Y is not compelled to sail above close hauled, nor she ever gets overlapped inside of B. So Blue did not brake 18.3 In the facts, you establish " Blue is tacking close on the stern of Yellow (18.3 into effect) but stays clear" Yellow, as the windward boat, has to keep clear of B (rule 11), which she does not. Y had room to keap clear by heading up just a little, which she did not. Penalize Yellow
Created: 23-Apr-24 16:57
John Christman
Nationality: United States
Certifications:
Club Race Officer
National Judge
National Umpire
2
Here's my analysis:
(The easy part) Until B crosses head to wind, rule 18 doesn't apply and it is a simple port/stbd rule 10. B keeps clear.
Just before position 3 and just after B has crossed HTW rule 18.3 begins to apply. Rule 13 also applies to B and she has to keep clear of Y until her tack is completed. Since B is not entitled to mark-room (18.2 is "off") she is not exonerated if she breaks 13. Y is not entitled to mark-room as she is not inside of B.
In position 3, B is still tacking and rule 13 applies to her. Y is right of way and, per rule 16, cannot alter course, i.e. bear away, if it causes B to not be able to keep clear or to hit the mark and break 31. This is because the room Y is required to give B includes the room to keep clear of Y AND comply with the rules of part 2 (with respect to any other boats) and rule 31. Y would not get exonerated for breaking 16 as she is not entitled to mark-room and the exoneration that comes with it.
I have no idea how B got around the mark without hitting it!
Just after position 3, B completes her tack and becomes a leeward right of way boat. Y is a windward keep clear boat, rule 11. Rule 15 applies momentarily to B, and by continuing to bear away from Y, she gives that room.
Between positions 3 & 4, the mark becomes astern of Y and B has met all her obligations to Y from 18.3. The situation between Y and B becomes a simple rule 11 and Y is required to keep clear of B. While B continues to bear away, Y may continue to bear away into the space B is giving.
In position 4, Y 's boom hits B. (I am assuming where this happens in your OP.) Y, as windward boat, was required to keep clear of B and doesn't so breaks rule 11 and 14. B could not avoid the contact so she does not break 14.
So, I have Y being DSQ for breaking rules 11 & 14 at position 4 or rule 16 at position 3+ and B not breaking any rules.
Created: 23-Apr-24 17:05
Al Sargent
0
Actually, William, it's not clearly a violation of RRS 18.3. Here's why.
We dug into a similar case recently at a Dave Perry rules clinic. Dave's comment was that a key fact is that Yellow is sailing below close-hauled, due to *her own choice*. Rule 18.3 says that Blue shall not *CAUSE* Yellow to sail above her close-hauled course.
We can safely assume that Blue does is not exerting any hypnosis or other form of mind control over Yellow as they sail into the zone. Therefore, Blue did not CAUSE Yellow to sail above close hauled. Yellow chose, on her own free will, to sail below close hauled get very close to Blue. If Yellow later has to sail above close hauled to avoid Blue, that is a consequence of her own decisions.
So, no, not an 18.3 violation. (Unless Yellow can prove that Blue is exerting mind control over her.)
Additionally, at the point of contact, Yellow's transom is no longer overlapped with the mark. She has been given the mark-room to which she's entitled. So that would seem like Rule 18 has turned off per RRS 18.1. In that case, Rule 11 (windward-leeward) would apply, and Yellow should be penalized.
I'm not a judge or umpire, but that's my analysis... looking forward to hearing what others say.
Created: 23-Apr-24 17:05
Murray Cummings
Nationality: New Zealand
1
Boats are on opposite tacks when they enter the zone, so no 0verlap exists. Blue, on port must keep clear of Yellow, on starboard. When Blue passes head-to-wind, and while subject to rule 13, she must keep clear of Yellow. Additionally, she may not cause Yellow to sail above close-hauled. (rule 18.3) When Blue reaches a close-hauled course, and is clear astern of Yellow, she must still keep clear of Yellow. When Yellow bears off, Blue gains ROW as leeward boat. Yellow is neither sailing above close-hauled or overlapped to leeward of Blue, so Blue does not break rule 18.3. Yellow is windward boat and must keep clear of Blue. Yellow's change of course created the overlap, so Blue is not required to give Yellow room to keep clear (rule 15). DSQ Yellow
Created: 23-Apr-24 17:08
Mark Evans
Certifications:
Club Judge
Club Race Officer
1
I think it is a little hasty to fault yellow. It was not reasonably possible for Yellow, the right-of-way boat rounding the mark [the boat sailing within the room to which she was entitled] to avoid contact with blue when it was clear that blue was not giving mark-room]. Yellow did not break RRS 14.
Entering the zone. Yellow (Starboard) has right of way. Blue (port) to keep clear. Rule 10 As Yellow enters the zone, she is not required to give blue room. Rule 18.1(a) applies Blue is not entitled to "mark Room" Rule 18.1(b) As blue tacks, she must continue to keep clear of Yellow. Rule 16 and 18.1(b)
18.3 does not apply as there was no overlap after blue tacked even if blue attained close hauled (much depends on the size of the jib). She still did not have right to room and must avoid yellow. rule 18(1)
Blue clear astern at the time Yellow reached the zone failed to give Yellow mark-room, and broke Rule 18.2(b). DEF - Mark-Room Room for a boat to leave a mark on the required side. Also, (a) room to sail to the mark when her proper course is to sail close to it, and (b) room to round or pass the mark as necessary to sail the course without touching the mark.
Created: 23-Apr-25 03:04
P
Angelo Guarino
Certifications:
Regional Judge
Fleet Measurer
1
Mark re: “18.3 does not apply as there was no overlap …”
You might want to be more careful with your description here. The conditions for rule 18.3 are satisfied at position 2.8 as soon as Blue passes HtW.
IMO it would be better to describe this as “Rule 18.3 applies and therefore rule 18.2 does not. Blue did not break rule 18.3 in this incident as described”
Created: 23-Apr-25 05:11
Gijs Vlas
Nationality: Netherlands
0
Thank you all guys for reviewing this one - I was sailing Blue as a tactician and this approach (with a 20m classic barger) is not my preferred, but my skipper made the call. It came to a protest hearing and Yellow did not place the boats quite clever, or clear on the table, also their witness did not. That is why I have requested your inputs and opinions on multiple rules here that are applicable. I am convinced that I had a good chance of winning this protest if I had persisted with the argumentations you confirmed. Nevertheless, I decided to retire (RET) at the end of the hearing since this is far from a safe manoeuvre in 4-5 Bft with these bargers - not my preferred move and a statement of courtesy for lessons to be learned. .
Created: 23-Apr-25 08:36
Murray Cummings
Nationality: New Zealand
0
Mark Evans
Entering the zone. Yellow (Starboard) has right of way. Blue (port) to keep clear. Rule 10 As Yellow enters the zone, she is not required to give blue room. Rule 18.1(a) applies
Correct. Rule 18 does not apply due to exception 18.1(a). Also, the proper course for Blue, but not Yellow, is to tack, so 18.1(b) also applies to turn off rule 18.
As blue tacks, she must continue to keep clear of Yellow. Rule 16 and 18.1(b)
Incorrect. When Blue passes head-to-wind she has changed from port tack to starboard tack. Both boats are on the same tack. Neither boat will need to tack to sail their proper course. None of the exceptions in rule 18.1 apply and therefore rule 18 applies. Rule 13 requires Blue to keep clear of Yellow. After she reaches a close-hauled course, Blue is astern of Yellow. Yellow has right of way. Blue is not a ROW boat changing course. Yellow is not changing course, so rule 16 does not apply. Rule 12 requires Blue to keep clear of Yellow.
18.3 does not apply as there was no overlap after blue tacked even if blue attained close hauled (much depends on the size of the jib). She still did not have right to room and must avoid yellow. rule 18(1)
An overlap is not a condition of Rule 18.3. For 18.3 to apply between two boats: 1. A boat must change tack from port to starboard inside the zone and then be fetching the mark (Blue does this)
2. The other boat must have been on starboard tack at the time she entered the zone and not have changed tacks since then. (Yellow satisfies this) As rule 18.3 applies between Blue and Yellow, rule 18.2 does not apply.
Blue clear astern at the time Yellow reached the zone failed to give Yellow mark-room, and broke Rule 18.2(b).
Incorrect. At the time Yellow reached the zone, the boats were on opposite tacks. Rule 18 did not apply. Rule 18 only began to apply when Blue passed head to wind from port tack to starboard tack. Rule 18.3 applied, not 18.2. Yellow is not entitled to mark-room unless she becomes overlapped inside Blue. While Yellow was clear ahead, she had ROW. When she bore away she was subject to Rule 16.1.and required to give Blue room to keep clear. When the overlap was established, Yellow was outside Blue and was not entitled to mark-room. Additionally, ROW passed from Yellow to Blue under Rule 11. Rule 15 applied but, because Blue acquired ROW due to Yellow's action of bearing away, Blue was not required to give Yellow room to keep clear. Yellow broke Rule 11 while she was not entitled to room or mark-room and cannot be exonerated.
Created: 23-Apr-25 15:09
Mark Evans
Certifications:
Club Judge
Club Race Officer
0
It appears that I do not have the same interpretation of when 18 is in force. 18 speaks to "mark room" only. The condition states "at least one" is in the zone. To a vessel in the zone, several condition are evaluated to the applicability of 18. 18 determines which vessel is; "being given" or "gives" "mark room" to others in the zone.
In this case, Starboard has right of way, as she entered the zone, the other was on port. 18.1(a) "blue" is not entitled to room as 18 (all of rule 18) does not apply with respect to blue and yellow.
Now, Port tacked, now meeting one of the conditions of 18. Specifically, the condition of 18.3.
This being my point. Room is set by the conditions of 18 as when a vessel enters the zone and sets the sequence to which vessels round the mark unless the vessel passes head to wind or leaves the zone. Where the vessel passes head to wind from Port to Starboard. 18.3 applies.
Now to my point of how 18.3 does not apply to this scenario.
18.3 Passing Head to Wind in the Zone "If a boat in the zone of a mark to be left to port passes head to wind from port to starboard tack and is then fetching the mark, she shall not cause a boat that has been on starboard tack since entering the zone to sail above close-hauled to avoid contact and she shall give mark-room if that boat becomes overlapped inside her. When this rule applies between boats, rule 18.2 does not apply between them." Blue tacked in the zone however did not cause Yellow to sail above close hauled. all ok so far. It is the next part of that statement is what I need clarification...."and she shall give mark-room if that boat becomes overlapped inside her "The sentence references "she" as the vessel who tacked. As it is the same sentence continues to reference "she" as the same boat however, "she" did not become overlapped inside her. Case 93 and 95 supports that interpretation.
Created: 23-Apr-25 17:24
P
John Allan
Certifications:
National Judge
Regional Race Officer
1
Mark,
I think rule 18.3 should be parsed this way:
First clause, up to 'then fetching the mark ' is the condition for when the rule applies.
Next clause, from 'she shall not' to 'inside her' is the prohibition and obligation of the rule when it applies.
Last sentence is a consequential effect on the applicability oh rule 18.2, which is the other rule giving mark-room.
In the scenario the conditions of the first clause are met, so the rule applies, and
The obligations of the second clause are in effect,and
By the last sentence, rule 18.2 does not apply.
In the scenario B does not cause Y to sail above close-hauled and Y never becomes overlapped inside B, so no obligation to give mark-room arises.
Shortly put rule 18.3 applies but is not broken. And once rule 18.3 applies rule 18.2, the only other source of mark-room, does not apply.
Until postion 2.5, rule 18 doesn't apply (18.1.a)
Your assertion " Overlap is present while entering the zone " is wrong (see definition Overlap)
From postion 2.5, Blue has passed head to wind and 18.3 applies, as well as Sections A and B
Y is not compelled to sail above close hauled, nor she ever gets overlapped inside of B.
So Blue did not brake 18.3
In the facts, you establish " Blue is tacking close on the stern of Yellow (18.3 into effect) but stays clear"
Yellow, as the windward boat, has to keep clear of B (rule 11), which she does not.
Y had room to keap clear by heading up just a little, which she did not.
Penalize Yellow
We dug into a similar case recently at a Dave Perry rules clinic. Dave's comment was that a key fact is that Yellow is sailing below close-hauled, due to *her own choice*. Rule 18.3 says that Blue shall not *CAUSE* Yellow to sail above her close-hauled course.
We can safely assume that Blue does is not exerting any hypnosis or other form of mind control over Yellow as they sail into the zone. Therefore, Blue did not CAUSE Yellow to sail above close hauled. Yellow chose, on her own free will, to sail below close hauled get very close to Blue. If Yellow later has to sail above close hauled to avoid Blue, that is a consequence of her own decisions.
So, no, not an 18.3 violation. (Unless Yellow can prove that Blue is exerting mind control over her.)
Additionally, at the point of contact, Yellow's transom is no longer overlapped with the mark. She has been given the mark-room to which she's entitled. So that would seem like Rule 18 has turned off per RRS 18.1. In that case, Rule 11 (windward-leeward) would apply, and Yellow should be penalized.
I'm not a judge or umpire, but that's my analysis... looking forward to hearing what others say.
When Blue passes head-to-wind, and while subject to rule 13, she must keep clear of Yellow. Additionally, she may not cause Yellow to sail above close-hauled. (rule 18.3)
When Blue reaches a close-hauled course, and is clear astern of Yellow, she must still keep clear of Yellow.
When Yellow bears off, Blue gains ROW as leeward boat. Yellow is neither sailing above close-hauled or overlapped to leeward of Blue, so Blue does not break rule 18.3.
Yellow is windward boat and must keep clear of Blue. Yellow's change of course created the overlap, so Blue is not required to give Yellow room to keep clear (rule 15).
DSQ Yellow
It was not reasonably possible for Yellow, the right-of-way boat rounding the mark [the boat sailing within the room to which she was entitled] to avoid contact with blue when it was clear that blue was not giving mark-room]. Yellow did not break RRS 14.
Entering the zone.
Yellow (Starboard) has right of way. Blue (port) to keep clear. Rule 10
As Yellow enters the zone, she is not required to give blue room. Rule 18.1(a) applies
Blue is not entitled to "mark Room" Rule 18.1(b)
As blue tacks, she must continue to keep clear of Yellow. Rule 16 and 18.1(b)
18.3 does not apply as there was no overlap after blue tacked even if blue attained close hauled (much depends on the size of the jib). She still did not have right to room and must avoid yellow. rule 18(1)
Blue clear astern at the time Yellow reached the zone failed to give Yellow mark-room, and broke Rule 18.2(b).
DEF - Mark-Room Room for a boat to leave a mark on the required side. Also, (a) room to sail to the mark when her proper course is to sail close to it, and
(b) room to round or pass the mark as necessary to sail the course without touching the mark.
You might want to be more careful with your description here. The conditions for rule 18.3 are satisfied at position 2.8 as soon as Blue passes HtW.
IMO it would be better to describe this as “Rule 18.3 applies and therefore rule 18.2 does not. Blue did not break rule 18.3 in this incident as described”
Correct. Rule 18 does not apply due to exception 18.1(a). Also, the proper course for Blue, but not Yellow, is to tack, so 18.1(b) also applies to turn off rule 18.
Incorrect. When Blue passes head-to-wind she has changed from port tack to starboard tack. Both boats are on the same tack. Neither boat will need to tack to sail their proper course. None of the exceptions in rule 18.1 apply and therefore rule 18 applies.
Rule 13 requires Blue to keep clear of Yellow.
After she reaches a close-hauled course, Blue is astern of Yellow. Yellow has right of way. Blue is not a ROW boat changing course. Yellow is not changing course, so rule 16 does not apply. Rule 12 requires Blue to keep clear of Yellow.
1. A boat must change tack from port to starboard inside the zone and then be fetching the mark (Blue does this)
As rule 18.3 applies between Blue and Yellow, rule 18.2 does not apply.
Incorrect. At the time Yellow reached the zone, the boats were on opposite tacks. Rule 18 did not apply. Rule 18 only began to apply when Blue passed head to wind from port tack to starboard tack. Rule 18.3 applied, not 18.2. Yellow is not entitled to mark-room unless she becomes overlapped inside Blue. While Yellow was clear ahead, she had ROW. When she bore away she was subject to Rule 16.1.and required to give Blue room to keep clear. When the overlap was established, Yellow was outside Blue and was not entitled to mark-room. Additionally, ROW passed from Yellow to Blue under Rule 11. Rule 15 applied but, because Blue acquired ROW due to Yellow's action of bearing away, Blue was not required to give Yellow room to keep clear. Yellow broke Rule 11 while she was not entitled to room or mark-room and cannot be exonerated.
18 speaks to "mark room" only. The condition states "at least one" is in the zone.
To a vessel in the zone, several condition are evaluated to the applicability of 18.
18 determines which vessel is; "being given" or "gives" "mark room" to others in the zone.
In this case, Starboard has right of way, as she entered the zone, the other was on port. 18.1(a) "blue" is not entitled to room as 18 (all of rule 18) does not apply with respect to blue and yellow.
Now, Port tacked, now meeting one of the conditions of 18. Specifically, the condition of 18.3.
This being my point. Room is set by the conditions of 18 as when a vessel enters the zone and sets the sequence to which vessels round the mark unless the vessel passes head to wind or leaves the zone. Where the vessel passes head to wind from Port to Starboard. 18.3 applies.
Now to my point of how 18.3 does not apply to this scenario.
"If a boat in the zone of a mark to be left to port passes head to wind from port to starboard tack and is then fetching the mark, she shall not cause a boat that has been on starboard tack since entering the zone to sail above close-hauled to avoid contact and she shall give mark-room if that boat becomes overlapped inside her. When this rule applies between boats, rule 18.2 does not apply between them."
Blue tacked in the zone however did not cause Yellow to sail above close hauled. all ok so far.
It is the next part of that statement is what I need clarification...."and she shall give mark-room if that boat becomes overlapped inside her "The sentence references "she" as the vessel who tacked. As it is the same sentence continues to reference "she" as the same boat however, "she" did not become overlapped inside her.
Case 93 and 95 supports that interpretation.
I think rule 18.3 should be parsed this way:
In the scenario the conditions of the first clause are met, so the rule applies, and
In the scenario B does not cause Y to sail above close-hauled and Y never becomes overlapped inside B, so no obligation to give mark-room arises.
Shortly put rule 18.3 applies but is not broken. And once rule 18.3 applies rule 18.2, the only other source of mark-room, does not apply.