Forum: Rule 18 and Room at the Mark
Leeward mark scenario
Gianni Restano
Nationality: Italy
Certifications:
- National Umpire
- National Judge
1
I looked for a similar scenario in the old posts, but I haven’t been able to find it. It’s somehow similar to WS Cases 2 and 59, but with a significant difference.
The second sentence of 18.2b says "If a boat is clear ahead when she reaches the zone, the boat clear astern at that moment shall thereafter give her mark-room". The words "the first of them" of the first sentence are not repeated and it’s not specified that the other boat must be outside the zone.
Does it mean that when Green enters the zone, 18.2 (b) turns on in her favor and we should DSQ red?
Thoughts?
Comments
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EDIT; on re-examination, they weren't overlapped. And surprisingly still not at 2. But there's no doubt that Red was first in the zone while clear astern ! ! . Hmmmmm,.. an odd ball.
The application of 18.2(a) does not depend on how the boats entered the zone. How it applies depends on the instantaneous relationship between the boats. Remember that rule 18 is all about whether a boat is required to give another boat room and whether a boat entitled to room will be exonerated for breaking a rule while in that room.
So...
Position 1 - The boats are not overlapped and therefore neither boat is entitled to mark-room from the other and rules 12 & 16 would be the basic rules that apply.
Position 2 - The situation hasn't changed. The boats are not overlapped and neither is entitled to mark-room.
Position 3 - Red is now inside and overlapped with Green. Red is windward and must keep clear of Green per 11. Green is limited by 16. 18.2(a) tells us that Green must give Red mark-room and Red will be exonerated for breaking rules 10, 11, 12, 13, 15, 16, & 31 if she does so while sailing in the mark-room she is entitled to.
Position 4 - Red is still overlapped and inside of Green. Green still has an obligation to give Red mark-room. Red breaks rule 11 & 31 but is exonerated as she is sailing within the mark-room she is entitled to. Green fails to give Red mark-room and breaks 18.2(a).
As I read the diagram, Red reaches the zone at position 1 and is clear astern.
Gianni, I see the potential ambiguity to which you refer.
But It seems that WS case 2 and 59 address this. They both say that the condition for 18.2b is not met. So, 18.2a applies and outside needs to give inside room per 18.2a
Case 59 says: "When a boat comes abreast of a mark but is outside the zone, and when her change of course towards the mark results in a boat that is in the zone and that was previously clear astern becoming overlapped inside her, rule 18.2(a) requires her to give mark-room to that boat, whether or not her distance from the mark was caused by giving mark-room to other boats overlapped inside her."
I think both cases make clear that 18.2b does not apply in your scenario and Green owes mark room to Red
the outside boat at that moment shall thereafter give the inside boat mark-room. If a boat is clear ahead when she reaches the zone, the boat clear astern at that moment shall thereafter give her mark-room." Note that the rule does not address the situation when the first boat to reach the zone is clear astern, as in this case. When Red reaches the zone, the boats are not overlapped and she is not clear ahead of Green, so rule 18.2(b) does not apply. As John says, until the boats become overlapped, neither boat is entitled to mark-room even though rule 18 as a whole applies, which seems strange. But once they become overlapped, Red is entitled to mark-room, with all that John says as a result.
One way to parse this rule is to observe that because of the geometry, the boats eventually become overlapped because the boat that was outside the zone when the other boat entered has to turn toward the mark to round it. If, when the first boat enters the zone, she is clear astern of the other, then she will eventually get mark-room. This is the actual statement of current rule 18.2 for match racing, and will be the phrasing of the same rule for all racing, come 2025.
18.2b Is clear and it does not apply. John Christman (NJ) gave a very nice detailed explanation.
John: I think you were in my "zoom room" for my recent judges seminar. Nice to run into you here. Very clearly explained.
Thanks again.
Actually, I think Rob may have been in the group of judges in the seminar also.
At Position 2, the situation indeed changes... Green reaches the zone and, per the second sentence of 18.2(b), any boat clear astern of her must give her mark room.
This scenario happens all the time, just with the boat tracks scooted over a few feet so you can't really tell who gets to the zone first - which doesn't matter anyway.
Any way you slice it, Red was not overlapped when either boat reached the zone and she should not go in there.
I'm actually pleased to see that people disagree about how current rule 18.2(b) works, as that justifies the change we'll be making for 2025:
"(a) When the first of two boats reaches the zone,
(1) if the boats are overlapped, the outside boat at that moment shall give the inside boat mark-room;
(2) if the boats are not overlapped, the boat that has not reached the zone at that moment shall give the
other boat mark-room.
When a boat is required to give mark-room by this rule, she shall continue to do so for as long as this rule
applies, even if later an overlap is broken or a new overlap begins."
This change has been approved by the World Sailing Racing Rules Committee for the 2025-2028 RRS. One strong argument for it was that it doesn't change the game -- it just states clearly what is already true in almost all cases. (The case where the current and future rules differ is if Red sails past the mark and Green goes in between Red and the mark, in which case, if they become overlapped, Green currently gets mark-room whereas in 2025 Red will continue to be entitled to mark-room by the last sentence of the new rule.)
Thanks again for your input.
18.2b applies, as Green is clear ahead when she reaches the zone. Red must swing wide and keep clear.
Ahh .. that's the drawing I remember then .. it had Red overstanding and Green turning tight and coming inside Red.
We can only look at whether 18.2(b) applies between Green and Red at the moment that 18 begins to apply, which is the moment that the first of the pair of boats enters the zone. That is your snapshot in time to determine the relationship between the boats. In this case Red is clear astern and so 18.2(b) does not apply.
Clearly, the rule-makers decided that the wording wasn't as clear as it should be, hence the rule change.
This situation is adequately covered by 18.2(a)
18.2(a) applies because 18.2(b) doesn't.
As it is a bit unusual, here is another example of 18.2(a) applying simply because 18.2(b) doesn't.
"If a boat is clear ahead when she reaches the
zone (i.e. Green), the boat clear astern at that moment (i.e. Red) shall thereafter give
her mark-room."
At P2, it seems to me that Red is clear astern at the moment when Green reaches the zone. And Green is not clear astern when Red reaches the zone. I think I support Kett and Philip. But I admit that, having respect for the other commentators, I might be persuaded otherwise (But I don't see it at present).
This is the summary from Case 2:
If the first of two boats to reach the zone is clear astern when she reaches it and if later the boats are overlapped when the other boat reaches the zone, rule 18.2(a), and not rule 18.2(b), applies. Rule 18.2(a) applies only while boats are overlapped and at least one of them is in the zone.
At 2 red is still clear astern of green.
At 3 red is overlapped and inside of green at that point rule 18.2(a) turns on and green must give mark room to red.
Well that’s how I see it
Paddy
Paddy - You guys continue to skip over Position 2 as if nothing happens, but that's where Green hits the zone and activates sentence 2 of 18.2(b).
This is the craziest thread I've seen here. 18.2(b) says what it says, how the heck do you just ignore that?!
If these boats are shifted just a few feet to the right, the issue of who reaches the zone first becomes extremely subjective. The logical - and very common and easy to gauge - conclusion is that the boat clear ahead should have mark room!
Again, my disclaimer is that Rule 18 is the worst rule in sailing!!!
Kett
Further to my post above - As I read it, WS case 2 supports the position that:
I think you are missing the “when the first of them reaches the zone” part in the 1st sentence of 18.2(b). “When” here is a single moment in time for a conditional test: ‘Are the boats overlapped or not?’
The first of them to reach the zone is Red at #1. At that singular moment, they are not overlapped at position #1 so you cannot apply 18.2(b)’s first sentence at position #1 nor anytime after (later at position #2).
PS: scroll up and see Rob O’s post of the new rule 18. You will see that they reordered the thoughts and put the “first of them enter the zone” first in the logic process, which I think makes it MUCH clearer.
This is a tricky one
Both of those cases hinge on the fact that when the boat that was clear ahead enters the zone, she is overlapped with a boat already in the zone at that moment. It is clear from the OP dwg that Green is clear ahead (not overlapped) when Green enters the zone, therefore that key stipulation in both Cases 2 and 59 is not satisfied.
The proposed new rule 18 does indeed clarify how the rule is to be applied, but I think it makes the rule worse by being even less intuitive.
Under (my interpretation of) the current rule 18.2(b), the distinction of which boat reached the zone first doesn't really matter if one boat is clear ahead. Green was clear ahead as the two boats neared the mark and Red can reasonably expect to swing wide and give the boat ahead mark room. Again, I have been in this position many times and, as the trailing boat, it never occurred to me to make the argument that my boat reached the zone first! Truthfully, that seems like a difficult argument to win anyway.
Kett
It's much easier to gauge an overlap between boats than it is to gauge a 3-lengths circle for two boats simultaneously. As a jury member, I would always be predisposed to assume that the boat clear ahead reached the zone first.
Best,
Kett
It is clearly written that way (only applies to first sentence) as the "first of them reaches the zone" is in a phrase whose precondition for application is "If boats are overlapped".
Honestly, I can see how you are applying the language. And .. IMO, if the 2nd sentence of 18.2(b) said nothing about either boat entering the zone, I could buy carrying the phrase "first of them reaches the zone" through the 2nd sentence of 18.2(b).
Unfortunately, the 2nd sentence establishes its own zone-trigger with ".. when she reaches the zone". Each sentence of 18.2(b) has its own zone-entry trigger. I don't think you can have 2 triggers for zone-entry operating simultaneously.
Case 59 hinges on a change of course of the boat outside of the zone creating an overlap with a boat already inside. When the outside boats in both Case 2 and Case 59 eventually enter the zone, they are already outside-overlapped with the boat already inside. In the OP, Green enters the zone before this change of course and overlap is established.
Thanks to the Rule 18 working group for fixing this!
But if we're going to continue down this intellectual rabbit hole, note that this exposes a real (though theoretical) problem with rule 18.2(b): Suppose, in the diagram at the beginning of this thread, Green is on a reach at position 1, then bears off to the same position 2 as shown. Then Red is overlapped inside Green when she reaches the zone, and thus is entitled to mark-room. But when Green reaches the zone, she's clear ahead, and according to my new reading of the rule, she's entitled to mark-room from Red. So each boat owes the other mark-room, and that's a problem if, say, Green changes course and breaks rule 16.1 or Red breaks rule 11. It seems to me that, as long as both boats sail within the mark-room to which they're entitled, both are exonerated for whatever mayhem they cause, which is definitely not the intent of the rule!.
Glad the ambiguity will be removed in the next edition.
-Tony
Thanks again,
Gianni
Kett
if I understand what you're saying, in judging who entered the zone, sailors perceive the zone more like a rectangle than a circle, like in my crappy sketch below.
If that's what you are saying, you might have a point regarding what's more intuitive
Thank you for posting the scenario. I am happy you felt the forum was a welcoming-space to post … and also happy that we had discussion and discovery along the way.
That’s what this forum is all about!
Just an FYI for those who don’t know … each new topic is reviewed by Paul or myself and others. So I hope that everyone feels free to post their questions or ideas. If they need work before we let it on the forum, we work with the forum member to improve the post first and then let it fly.
Gianni … great post and great insights gained (at least for the next 11 months!! … Lions and Tigers and New Quads … Oh My!.)
Thanks for your reply. I reread Rob’s post and diagram. I do believe that each of the two sentences of 18.2(b) stand on their own. And although the rule doesn’t explicitly state it, I also believe those two sentences are binary. By that I mean that only one of them can apply between the same two boats at the same mark rounding. If the first sentence concerning “overlap” is satisfied, then I don’t believe the second sentence concerning “clear ahead” would ever turn on. Since it’s designed to facilitate safe and orderly mark roundings, I don’t think the spirit and intent of rule 18 would support both boats owing each other mark room.
In Rob's case, as he says, both boats are obligated to give the other mark-room. 18.2(c)(1) doesn't help much as it simply states that if the overlap relationship changes, the obligation still applies. This actually re-enforces that Green has to give Red mark-room even though the overlap was broken and then re-established. 18.2(c)(2) actually adds a new obligation on Red, that she allows Green room to sail her proper course.
Basically I was basing my conclusion on the fact that the rules writers (from what I can tell) have gone to great pains to write rules that mean exactly what they say and no more. That and the fact that in neither the cases that were being discussed was the second boat to reach the zone clear ahead, which is the specific situation that makes this case unique and difficult.
Dick Rose has said that the intention of 18 is to preserve the order of the boats and get them around the mark in an orderly fashion (paraphrasing, since I don't have his words in front of me). Green is ahead, but Red is "more inside". Who should round first?
Green really should sail closer to the rhumb line if he wants to preserve his place. But we don't know what traffic looks like ahead of him.
Does 18.2b apply yes or no. If no 18.2a applies. The test for whether a rule applies should always come first in my opinion.
That matters.
Kett: I think it’s very common for boats to ‘get in line’ outside the zone and off to the right, looking downwind toward the mark. They then make their turn toward the mark, and at that point they create an overlap with those behind coming down the course nearer the rhumb line, before any of them have entered the zone. Very common when you have more than a handful of ILCAs, for instance.
I took a look at your modified drawing/scenario and it seems like this could be an interesting rules Twilight Zone!
That’s a weird one to wrap your head around.
Only safe bet I see for either boat is to NOT sail next to the mark and not get in the other boat’s lane to that space next to the mark, because if you are in there you are a sitting duck.
PS: As you point out Rob, this is “fixed” in the new 18.
This scenario, as Rob pointed out, depends on the exact pixel placement of the drawing that Gianni made to annoy us all. If Green is just slightly wider of the mark such that the overlap is established by the turn before any part of her hull enters the zone, 59 applies and green gets room.
The scenario where both are entitled to room and are exonerated for mark contact or any boat contact that doesn't cause damage outlined by Angelo seems the most consistent reading of the rule. It also seems like something you want to fix because both boats being entitled to room clearly wasn't the intent.
You have said that you think the new version makes 18 worse. I disagree. I would say that the key reason for the zone is to set a line beyond which rights and obligations no longer change. It would indeed be chaos if my status changes when I'm barely more than a boat length from the mark (as it does for red in this scenario).
I like that the new rule preserves the idea that rights and obligations are fixed as soon as rule 18 turns on. That's the way I wanted to interpret the rule in this scenario, though I'll admit it required a bit of a stretch to decide that the antecedent of "she" in the second sentence was the first boat to enter the zone in the first sentence.
In terms of position on the course, Red is "ahead" of Green (closer to the mark). I think the outside shouldn't be entitled to pass them.
-tony
Green, Turquoise and Pink usually think they are in the zone before they luff to round the mark. The fact that Red gets to the mark before Turquoise and Pink usually resolves that argument. Red and Green will continue to argue about mark-room as they round the mark.
If the latter, I would have expected a 18.2(b)(i) and a 18.2(b)(ii).
Read Rob Overton’s response with drawing. Each sentence of 18.2(b) stands on its own.
However (as Rob also points out) the OP scenario and Rob’s alteration are 99.9% an intellectual academic-exercise only … since the likelihood that a PC would endorse a drawing with boats in such marginal zone-entry/overlap conditions is extreemly small.