Forum: Rule 18 and Room at the Mark

Wrong way to leeward

Catalan Benaros
Hi friends !!

Last sunday i saw this situation

At position N°4
Are they Red and Green  overlap ?
Which rule applies ?

Thanks  !!



Created: 24-Mar-14 11:03

Comments

Yves Leglise
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At pos. 4, Green is on starboard tack, and Red is on port tack. Therefore there cannot be an overlap (see definition Clear ahead, Clear astern, Overlap). RRS 10 applies.
Created: 24-Mar-14 11:32
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John Allan
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Assuming both boats are required to round th  mark to port, and the wind is coming from the top of the page.

At least one (actually both) of the boats is in the zone and none of the exceptions in RRS 18.1 apply, so RRS 18 applies.

Definition Clear Astern and Clear Ahead; Overlap says

These terms always apply to boats on the same tack. They apply to boats on opposite tacks only when rule 18 applies between them or when both boats are sailing more than ninety degrees from the true wind.

Boats are on opposite tacks.

G is not sailin  more than ninety degrees from the true wind.

But RRS 18 applies.

G is not clear astern of R.

R is not clear astern of G.

So

Boats are overlapped.

G has passed head to wind in the zone, so, in accordanc  with  RRS 18.2( d), RRS 18.2 (b) and (c) do not apply, so  RRS 18.2 (a) applies.

G is between R and the mark.

So G is overlapped inside R and R is required by  RRS 18. 2 (a) to give G mark-room.
Created: 24-Mar-14 11:46
Hans Cimutta
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We don’t know the status of 18.2 b. If green was entitled to mark-room then 18.2 b is off (18.2 d) and 18.2a applies giving green, the inside boat, mark-room. But if the 2 boats overlapped when green entered the zone and red was inside, then red has mark-room.

They are sailing on opposite tacks, red needs to keep clear RRS 10.

They are overlapped because RRS18 applies to them. Also if green bears away and is less than 90 degree towards the wind they are overlapped.

RRS 11 does not apply yet because they are on different tacks.

RRS 43 will exonerate the boat with mark-room for breaches of RRS 10 or 11 if she sails within her mark-room. 
Created: 24-Mar-14 11:57
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Angelo Guarino
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 I think we need to look at RRS 16.1 after #3.5 after Green passes a close-hauled course and continues to turn.   What is Red doing to keep clear and as Green continues to turn  is Green giving Red room to keep clear?

PS: Not saying one way or another .. just that we should consider it. 
Created: 24-Mar-14 13:02
Mark Townsend
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John Allen's analysis looks correct.
Created: 24-Mar-14 13:53
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Angelo Guarino
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Here’s a question… how do we think about the last sentence of rule 18.1?  Could one argue that Red gave Green the MR she was entitled to but Green did not take it?

The last sentence of 18.1 doesn’t say when mark-room was taken … it says when MR is given. 
Created: 24-Mar-14 14:04
Andrew Lesslie
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Is green taking a penalty?
Created: 24-Mar-14 14:24
Murray Cummings
Nationality: New Zealand
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Angelo,
 Here’s a question… how do we think about the last sentence of rule 18.1?  Could one argue that Red gave Green the MR she was entitled to but Green did not take it?

The last sentence of 18.1 doesn’t say when mark-room was taken … it says when MR is given.  

Under rule 18.2(b)  she had room to leave the mark on the required side. Also, she had
 room to sail to the mark when her proper course was to sail close to it.

But was she given room to round or pass the mark as necessary to sail the course without touching the mark? 
I think this room continues until she has passed the mark as necessary to sail the course.  It is clear that she has not yet done this, so   mark room has not yet been given. 

Murray
Created: 24-Mar-14 14:59
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Angelo Guarino
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PS: … RRS 18.1 last-sentence questions  to ask… 

Did Red give Green …

  1. Room to sail to the mark? 
  2. Room to leave the mark on its proper side?
  3. Room to round the mark as necessary to sail the course?

Seems to me the argument could be make that Red gave those room elements, but Green did not avail herself of that room given. .  If so, rule 18.1 states that 18 no longer applies between them unless Green exits and re-enters the zone. 
Created: 24-Mar-14 15:01
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Angelo Guarino
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Andrew … a penalty doesn’t impact mark-room as Section B and C rules still apply when rule 21 applies. 
Created: 24-Mar-14 15:17
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Angelo Guarino
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Murray, how do we state that?

Are you saying ?,…

“Yes, Green is entitled to all those elements of MR, but she is not obligated to take them or sail within the MR limits. Room to round the mark as necessary to sail the course cannot be given until the entitled boat first sails to the mark on its proper side.”

If we say that 18 stays on, then Green is entitled to MR from the time she enters the zone (assuming that Red was not inside overlapped when Green entered the zone).

Green’s mark room was space to sail promptly the mark on the correct side (Case 118).  Though the MR rule might change 18.2(b) vs 18.2(a), the “sail to the mark” aspect of MR is part of def: mark-room and not rule 18. 

Wouldn’t we need to know where Green entered the zone to determine if she’s sailing inside/outside the MR she is entitled to?  

Or does MR “refresh” after Green passes HTW as we move from 18.2(b) to 18.2(a)?
Created: 24-Mar-14 15:49
Yves Leglise
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We are so far from Catalan's question, which was so simple... and so was the answer. Why introduce a mark and rules refering to marks?
But OK, feel free to crate your own scenario, which is not Catalan's.
Created: 24-Mar-14 15:55
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Angelo Guarino
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Yves … his question was “what rules apply?”   His image shows a mark and zone around it.  What we are discussing is exactly what Catalan asked. 

  • Does rule 18 apply?  Which rules of 18, when, why?
  • Does rule 18 continue to apply at 4?
  • Does rule 21 apply? (Is the boat taking a penalty). 
  • If Green is still entitled to MR at 4, is she sailing within the MR she is entitled to (rule 44.1(b) applies)?
Created: 24-Mar-14 16:27
Ant Davey
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The important fact that isn't in the diagram is the true wind direction. If, at 4, both boats are sailing at more than 90 degrees from the true wind, then they are overlapped. Red has to give mark room to green, who must immediately start to sail within her corridor (18.2(a)). If Green is on a windward course, 18.1 (b) applies and Yves is correct (even thought there is obviously a mark involved), Rule 10 should apply. I assume that these are quite small boats, and the time between position 4 and 4.5, where one boat will have to give mark room or keep clear of the other, is no more than a couple of seconds. If they were overlapped, as green continues to alter course toward the mark, has time been given to comply with 15?
Created: 24-Mar-14 17:16
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Niko Kotsatos
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Yves and Ant, I think that it does not matter if G is above 90 to the wind IF rule 18 applies. That is the last sentence of overlap: "[These terms] apply to boats on opposite tacks only when rule 18 applies between them..."
That's why we have to discuss 18 even to answer the overlap question.

Prior to Angelo's question I would have said exactly what John Allan said: 
  • Boats are overlapped.
  • G has passed head to wind in the zone, so, in accordanc  with  RRS 18.2( d), RRS 18.2 (b) and (c) do not apply, so  RRS 18.2 (a) applies.
  • G is between R and the mark.
  • So G is overlapped inside R and R is required by  RRS 18. 2 (a) to give G mark-room. 

I'm still thinking about Angelo's question. Wondering whether team racing can be instructive in some way, as slow roundings are normal (though not slow roundings with tacking).

Created: 24-Mar-14 17:42
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John Allan
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 Angelo Guarino said Created: Today 15:17 
Andrew … a penalty doesn’t impact mark-room as Section B and C rules still apply when rule 21 applies. 

Yes, but  RRS 43.1(b) doesn't give exoneration for breaking RRS 21.2(b).
Created: 24-Mar-14 20:32
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Angelo Guarino
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John … good call. 

Also … if Green was doing a penalty turn and rule 18 applies …
  • Mark-room includes room
  • Room include space to comply with her obligations under other rules of Part 2
  • Rule 21 is a rule of Part 2
  • Greens obligation under rule 21.2 is to keep clear of a boat not taking a penalty (Red)

So, would the room in Green’s MR from Red include space from Red for Green to keep clear of Red while she is doing the turn?
Created: 24-Mar-14 22:30
Catalan Benaros
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Always in my diagrams the wind blows from TOP
Created: 24-Mar-14 22:44
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Angelo Guarino
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Catalan, is/is-not Green taking a penalty?
Created: 24-Mar-15 14:38
John Ball
Nationality: Canada
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This scenario may happen in radio sailing due to depth perception problem as the mark may be some distance away from the skipper.
I discus this problem on my web site 'Johns RC sailing rules and tactics' in the Appendix  Item B Mark Room and Depth perception  - When things go wrong!

John
Created: 24-Mar-15 16:27
Thomas Hampton
Nationality: United States
0
Another very interesting discussion. It seems to me there are four possible scenarios: green is or is not doing penalty turns while rule 18 is or is not in effect. I was all in with John Allen’s initial analysis until Angelo brought up the last sentence in 18.1. It seems to me that green received all the elements of mark-room she was due before she began her turn at position 1 and thus rule 18 no longer applies from that point on. If that’s the case and green is doing a one or two-turns penalty, it sure doesn’t seem like she got well clear of other boats first. I’ve looked at the cases to see if there’s been a ruling in that regard but haven’t found anything. If anyone can point me toward a ruling I’d appreciate it. If green is doing a penalty turn, she hasn’t completed it at position 4 and needs to keep clear of red under rule 21.2 as red sails to the mark. If green’s not doing a penalty turn, she gains row by rule 10 after passing head to wind at position 3. Rules 13, 15, and 16 are also in play as green continues her turn to port but red should have time and room to see what’s happening and keep clear.
But, if rule 18 in fact still applies, that changes things. If green is not doing a penalty turn, the only change to the discussion above is that in addition to needing to keep clear under rule 10, red also owes green mark room under 18.2(a). If green is doing a penalty turn, Angelo’s analysis, that green’s mark-room includes room to comply with her part 2 obligations, makes sense to me by the wording of the rule. However, it strikes me that the overall intent of rule 21.2 would supercede that requirement in the definition of room and green would need to keep clear of red while doing her turn. Again, if rule 18 does apply, what consequence, if any, is there due to green not getting well clear before starting her penalty turn?
Created: 24-Mar-16 13:18
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Angelo Guarino
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Thomas, I wrote to Murray ..

“Room to round the mark as necessary to sail the course cannot be given until the entitled boat first sails to [and is along side] the mark on its proper side.”

I’m looking for appeals that might support that statement, as I do not think it is in any Case. It would be a newer Appeal since the last sentence of 18.1 is new. 

It boils down to how “given” is interpreted. IMO it’s more consistent to interpret “given”as meaning “both provided and taken”. Therefore, 18.1’s last sentence can’t be satisfied by Red at 4. 

Back to the 3 elements of MR .. (assume no penalty turn)

Did Red give Green …

  1. Room to sail to the mark? 
  2. Room to leave the mark on its proper side?
  3. Room to round the mark as necessary to sail the course?

Room to sail to the mark
Case 118 states that this portion of Green’s mark-room was to sail promptly to the mark to a position next to the mark on the proper side. One could argue that Red provides that room. Depending on where Green enters the zone (maybe assume it’s 11 o’clock on the dial), this element of her MR could be a corridor from that zone-entry position to a position along side the mark. If so, one might argue that Green is sailing outside her MR at positions 2 and 3. We will look at position 4 in a moment below. 


Question 1: Is Green sailing outside of her MR at positions 2 and 3, assuming she entered the zone at 11 o’clock?  Cases 75 and 118 could be applied in a way to say “yes”. 

As far as MR elements 2 and 3,  I think they can’t be given until Green is next to the mark.

Transition from 18.2(b) to 18.2(a) at #3+ [maybe a nice addition to our friend John’s “Transitions” white paper]

At position 3+, Green passes HTW. As detailed by John, none of 18.1(a)-(d) are true, therefore 18 still applies and because neither is clear-astern the other, they are overlapped with Green inside Red.  So 18.2(a) applies the moment 18.2(d) turns off 18.2(b).

Question 2: From #1 to #4, Green is in a continuous state of MR entitlement (does not turn off/on).  Therefore, since “room to sail to the mark” is an element of MR (not rule 18) and her MR entitlement persisted uninterrupted from #1 to #4, does:

  1. Green’s original corridor to the mark remain from when she entered the zone? or
  2. Green gets a new calculation of space to sail promptly to the mark from position #3 when her MR transitions from 18.2(b) to 18.2(a)? or
  3. Green’s space to sail promptly to the mark is being continuously recalculated between positions #1-#4 until such time that Red and Green are close enough to each other that they are influencing one or both boat’s course?

Assuming Green’s entitlement to MR is uninterrupted, the above could be summarized as Green’s space to sail to the mark is:
  1. Calculated once when she entered the zone?
  2. Recalculated once when the part of rule 18 providing MR changes?
  3. Recalculated continuously until the Red is close enough that they are influencing each other’s course?
Created: 24-Mar-16 14:51
Murray Cummings
Nationality: New Zealand
0
I respectfully disagree with Ant Davey's statement 
 Red has to give mark room to green, who must immediately start to sail within her corridor (18.2(a)) 

Until a position between 3 and 4, Green has ROW and is not required to remain within the corridor.

In RRS Case 75, it is stated: 
The mark-room that P was required to give S was the space S needed in the existing conditions to sail promptly to the mark in a seamanlike way. That space was a direct corridor from S1 to a position close to and alongside the
mark on the required side. P gave S that room. However, because S had right of way she was not required to remain within that corridor; she was permitted to sail any course provided that she complied with rules 16.1 and 18.4.

The requirement for S to comply with rule 18.4,  after P was deemed to have given S room to sail to the mark, has the implication that rule 18 still applies.  Could one not concur from this that, although room has been given to sail to the mark (along the "corridor"), mark room has not yet been given?   

Murray
Created: 24-Mar-16 15:03
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Angelo Guarino
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Murray re: “The requirement for S to comply with rule 18.4,  after P was deemed to have given S room to sail to the mark, has the implication that rule 18 still applies.  Could one not concur from this that, although room has been given to sail to the mark (along the "corridor"), mark room has not yet been given?  “

In Case 75, the rule breach occurs while P is giving S  MR(a) room to sail to the mark.  P gave S that room and in Case 75 there was no contention that P denied S the other elements of MR.  P gave S MR, but broke rule 10 because S was not obligated to sail within her MR.  The point of 75 is to confirm that rules of Part 2 Section A and B apply when rule 18 applies (unless stated otherwise in the rule). 

Case 75 is good to apply here, since after position 3.5, Green is ROW entitled to MR. 

So my questions get down to whether or not Green can be exonerated under 43.1(b) from position 3 to 4+ (back to Catalan’s Q of which rules apply), which depends upon whether or not Green is sailing within the MR she is entitled to. 

Is Green sailing …
  1. Outside the MR she is entitled to, to sail [promptly]  to the mark on its proper side, because that corridor was set when Green entered the zone at 11 on the dial, or
  2. Inside the MR she is entitled to, to sail [promptly] to the mark on its proper side, because …
    1. Green’s corridor reset when her MR changed from 18.2(b) to 18.2(a), or
    2. Green’s corridor didn’t set at all until position 4, when Red is close enough to influence Green and Red’s course?
Created: 24-Mar-16 18:02
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Beau Vrolyk
Nationality: United States
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Angelo, my inclination is that your 2.2 question above (the last one) is the correct on. While G is sailing around keeping out of R’s way, there is no need for a discussion of MR. G is free to go where she pleases. It is only once R gets close that G has any obligation to turn towards the mark per the definition of MR and Case 75. 

Put another way, G only becomes obligated to sail within MR by the arrival of R. Prior to that time, she’s free to sail wherever she pleases. I can’t find any rule that obligates G to anticipate R’s actions and get herself out of R’s way before R arrives on the scene.

What am I missing here?
Created: 24-Mar-16 18:47
Catalan Benaros
1
@angelo
Catalan, is/is-not Green taking a penalty?

IS NOT
Created: 24-Mar-17 13:16
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Angelo Guarino
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Beau, a boat is never “obligated” to sail within her MR, that’s why you can’t find any Cases or Appeals on that (PS: actually Case 75 states S is not obligated).  Sailing within your MR gets you access to 43.1(b) exoneration (rules of Part 2, section A, 15, 16 & 31).

My question is not “when does she become obligated?”

My question is whether or not Green is sailing within the mark-room she is entitled to (and thus entitled to 43.1(b) exoneration).  To determine that question, one has to decide what the bounds of that MR is, and that question in turn begs the question when, why and how is Green’s MR determined (and possibly recalculated).

I’ve been searching the Cases and Appeals (US, CAN, RYA) and it seems the only ones that talk about the “room to sail to the mark” component of MR are Case 118 (directly) and Case 75 (indirectly by application) and US20

Unfortunately, in both of these Cases and Appeal, the boats are close enough to each other to be influenced by each other (when the first of them enters the zone) … and the rule 18 rule that grants MR does not change …. so there is no way using those cases alone to differentiate the question. 
Created: 24-Mar-17 13:18
John Ball
Nationality: Canada
0
This is how I see the situation - and although not stated in the OP, I suspect that this is a radio sailing incident and involves depth perception.

When Green entered the zone, she was entitled to mark room 18.2(b). She made a depth perception error and turned short of the mark. No rule was broken and no penalty turn is involved - she is sailing to comply with the string rule.

At P3 she passes HTW and the original mark room ends 18.2(d). As soon as Green passes HTW she becomes overlapped and inside Red and become entitled to mark room 18.2(a). As her new mark room starts then, any conversation of 'corridor; also starts then and Green sails her proper course to the mark and Red is required to give mark room. 

As Green gained the new mark room she would be exonerated from any breach of R 15 when ROW changed, or 16.1(a) as she altered course as she was sailing within the room to which she was entitled.

John
Created: 24-Mar-17 16:46
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Beau Vrolyk
Nationality: United States
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Angelo — Thank you for your reply. I understand and agree.

For those who are adding information to the OP, I’d point out that many of us who do Match Racing do precisely what Green is doing to clear a penalty. To state the obvious, it is a particularly good time to take the penalty turn as Red can be held outside or behind depending on how close they get to Green. There isn’t any risk that Red can get Room at the mark and this puts Green in a stronger position than doing her turn at some place away from the mark. Continuing to add information that’s not in the OP, my guess is that Green would continue to turn downwind towards the mark hoping to push Red as far out as possible before they start complaining and Green is forced to head directly towards the mark. 
Created: 24-Mar-17 17:01
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Angelo Guarino
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John B. and Beau

John, looks like you are in the Ang-option 2.1 camp then …?

Green is sailing … (2) inside the MR she is entitled to, to sail [promptly] to the mark on its proper side, because … (1) Green’s corridor reset [at pos 3+] when her MR changed from 18.2(b) to 18.2(a),

Beau, OP author states late in the thread that Green is not taking a penalty.  My question isn’t if Green can get room “at the mark”, rather “Is Green sailing within the MR she is entitled to at position 4, and why or why-not?” (is it my 1, 2.1, 2.2 above or other explanation?). 
Created: 24-Mar-18 12:14
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John Allan
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Just to tidy up the issue of whether mark-room has been given.  It hasn't and RRS 18 still applies.
 
Angelo Guarino said Created: 24-Mar-14 14:04 
 
Here’s a question… how do we think about the last sentence of rule 18.1?  Could one argue that Red gave Green the MR she was entitled to but Green did not take it?
 
 The last sentence of 18.1 doesn’t say when mark-room was taken … it says when MR is given. 
 
Murray Cummings said Created: 24-Mar-14 14:59 

I think this room continues until she has passed the mark as necessary to sail the course.  It is clear that she has not yet done this, so   mark room has not yet been given. 

This issue was dealt with in some threads back in 2019
 
https://www.racingrulesofsailing.org/posts/274-contradiction-in-rule-18#_=_

While some of the wording may have 'slipped through the cracks in the rule amending proces, it is clear that:

mark-room has been given only when the boat entitled to mark-room is past the mark and she can continue to sail the course without hitting that mark. 

If that were not the case, then the whole concept of team racing 'mark traps' would fall over, and TR Calls E5, E10, H1, H5, and J3 would be wrong and would need to be withdrawn.  They haven't.
 
Here's Rob Overton's whole post.

Rob Overton said  Created: 19-Jan-02 17:19 

I think the simple answer to Phillip's question, above, is that, assuming Yellow entered the zone clear ahead, she is entitled to mark-room at position 2 and, assuming yellow has passed the mark at position 3, Blue has mark-room at that time.
 
 This transfer of obligations was unintended by the rule-writers. I know this because I was one of them.
 
 The brief history of the words "or has been given that mark-room" in rule 18..2.(d) is this:
 
 There used to be a criterion for when rule 18 turns off -- rule 18 applied "until the boats have passed the mark". But that turns out not to work; picture two Sunfish, with their long booms, passing close by a windward mark, overlapped and with the windward boat bows-out on the leeward boat. The leeward boat cannot release her sheet and bear off until she is past the mark, and at that point the windward boat is also past the mark; yet we surely don't want to turn off rule 18 yet, as the boats have barely begun to round the mark! The simple requirement "the boats have passed the mark" also doesn't work in other common scenarios, especially where there is a current and boats must sail beyond the point where the mark is clear astern of them, in order to sail the course without risk of hitting the mark. So that statement was removed in 2009. It was not replaced because, as John Allen points out above, such a clause seems unnecessary -- rule 18's provisions about mark-room "turn off" (or, more precisely, become moot) when there is no more room to be given.
 
 Alas, a rule that turns on at a clear point (when one of the boats enters the zone) and then doesn't turn itself off again bothers the heck out of people, especially because rule 18.2(b) says that a boat clear ahead or overlapped at the zone is entitled to mark-room "thereafter", which is a pretty strong word; it's used in religion to indicate eternity. Anybody who presented a class or seminar on the rules between 2009 and 2013 knows that sooner or later somebody would ask, "But when does the rule turn off?" The explanation, that it really doesn't turn off until both boats leave the zone, but that doesn't matter because at some point there is no more room to be given, takes a long time and satisfies nobody.
 
 So we decided to answer the question if we could find an easy fix. Rule 18.2(d) already had two conditions where a boat can lose her right to mark-room, so that seemed an obvious place to add an additional condition. Further, it's rule 18.2(b) that uses the word "thereafter", and as everybody knows, it's rule 18.2(b) that almost always grants mark-room, so a rule that talks about entitlement for mark-room under rule 18.2(b) seemed like a good place to put a criterion for that rule turning off.
 
 Rules-makers soon recognized that this was a mistake. We never intended to switch the right to mark-room, from the boat clear ahead or overlapped inside at the zone, to the other boat. However, as a practical matter it's not a big deal -- once a boat has been given mark-room, she is sailing the next leg (or finished) and the requirement for her to give mark-room to a boat overlapped inside her is not onerous. Furthermore, almost anything she might do that deprives the other boat of the space to round the mark is prohibited by rules 15 or 16 (remember, it is unseamanlike to hit a mark, so if she changes course in such a way that the boat inside her is compelled to hit the mark, she breaks rule 16, even if she doesn't owe that boat mark-room).
 
 Still, the problem should be fixed, and in their annual conference in October, 2018, World Sailing passed changes to rule 18 and the definition "mark-room", to answer the question better in 2021. These changes remove the words "when mark-room has been given" from rule 18.2(d), and move them to a new sentence in rule 18.1 turning off all of rule 18 when mark-room has been given (regardless of whether it was given under rule 18.2(b) or some other part of the rule) and the mark no longer influences the course of the boat entitled to that room. WS also passed changes to the definition mark-room making it clear that mark-room has been given only when the boat entitled to mark-room is past the mark and she can continue to sail the course without hitting that mark. This is not an urgent change and will not come into effect until January, 2021. Note also that the change made in 2018 can be reviewed by National Authorities and edits proposed in 2019; in fact, the US Racing Rules Committee is currently working on some minor word-smithing for the new definition. 

Created: 24-Mar-23 19:54
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John Allan
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Mark-room 'reset'
I don't think mark-room can 'reset' in this scenario.  G is continuously entitled to mark-room:  when she passes head to wind, there is a rules transition (much too subtle for the introductory Transitions paper), but this doesn't interrupt the overall applliction of RRS 18.

Different at a windward mark, where tacking will switch off RRS in its entirity via RRS 18.1(b) or (c).
Created: 24-Mar-23 22:30
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Angelo Guarino
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John, agree with the 18.1 discussion.  IMO Green has not been given MR at 4. 

Where do you land in my options below? 1, 2a or 2b?

[assuming Green entered zone at 11 o’clock, at pos 4] Is Green sailing …
  1. Outside the MR she is entitled to, to sail [promptly]  to the mark on its proper side, because that corridor was set when Green entered the zone at 11 on the dial, or
  2. Inside the MR she is entitled to, to sail [promptly] to the mark on its proper side, because …
    1. Green’s corridor reset when her MR changed from 18.2(b) to 18.2(a), or
    2. Green’s corridor didn’t set at all until position 4, when Red is close enough to influence Green and Red’s course?
Created: 24-Mar-24 00:58
P
John Allan
Certifications:
  • National Judge
  • Regional Race Officer
0
Ang, I think G's mark room was the 'frying pan', with the direct corridor ('panhandle') running from 11 o'clock where she first entered the zone.

I can see the logic of saying something like 'mark-room doesn't start until a boat that would be entitled to it engages with a boat required to give it', but I really can't see anything in the RRS to support that, and the discussion by Rob Overton tells me that the issue was intended to be resolved by the 'passed the mark' or 'not influenced by the mark' language that got lost.

As i said in my post of Created: Yesterday 22:30, this would be different at a windward mark, where tacking will switch off RRS in its entirity via RRS 18.1(b) or (c).

So @4, G is starboard tack, ROW (RRS 10), overlapped inside and entitled to mark-room (RRS 18.2(a)), but outside her mark-room, not that she needs exoneration because she hasn't yet broken any Part 2 rule.

Presumably G will continue to bear away, and R will luff to keep clear, and very  shortly,  @ say 4+2delta, G will have her nose in the corridor and I'd say she was then back within the mark-room to which she was entitled as she continues to bear away and sail to and around the mark.

Of course as G bears away and gybes around the mark R will become overlapped inside her and entitled to the RRS 18.2(a) mark-room, but presumably G will be able to round, and get off and away before she interferes with R.
Created: 24-Mar-24 07:46
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Angelo Guarino
Certifications:
  • Regional Judge
  • Fleet Measurer
0
John, I agree that Rob O’s discussion tells us about 18.1 and thus when MR is given in total (all components satisfied), but I don’t think it informs us much when it comes to the “room to sail to the mark” (def: MR(a)) component. As you mention, this is a unique scenario where MR is uninterrupted while rule 18.2 changes. 

I can see arguments for each, some stronger than others, that at pos#4 Green is …

1) Outside the MR she is entitled to, to sail [promptly] to the mark on its proper side, because that corridor was set when Green entered the zone at 11 on the dial

I agree that based on the Cases we have this is the strongest interpretation (she gets the ‘frying pan’).  Case 75’s “corridor” comment and Case 118’s addition of “promptly” seem to put an onus on the MR entitled boat to sail a time-efficient course to the mark.  That said, those cases do not include an uninterrupted MR transition from 18.2(b) to (a).  Therefore, I think Case 75 and Case 118 clearly tell us what Green’s MR was from pos#1 - pos#3 (and that Green is outside it at #3) but the Cases are silent on what happens after pos#3 and whether that initial 18.2(b) MR calculation survives transitioning to 18.2(a). 

2A) Inside the MR she is entitled to, to sail [promptly] to the mark on its proper side, because … Green’s corridor reset [was calculated anew] when her MR changed from 18.2(b) to 18.2(a), 

I cannot find a single Case, Call or Appeal that discusses an uninterrupted MR transition from 18.2(b) to 18.2(a).   I can see the argument that Green gets a new MR calculation at that moment as she acquires a new MR entitlement based upon new set of attributes (as an inside overlapped boat in the zone).  18.2(b)’s MR is calculated at a single moment and survives changes in the boats’ orientations to each other (is persistent by 18.2(c)). 18.2(a)’s MR on the other hand only exists when the single inside-overlap state exists (which can turn off/on or switch between boats). 

So the argument would say at #3+, Green becomes an inside-overlapped boat entitled to MR from the moment that state-basis was true, and that MR, based on that attribute, includes space to sail promptly to the mark from the location she passed HTW at #3+ and becomes inside-overlapped inside the zone. 

2B) Inside the MR she is entitled to, to sail [promptly] to the mark on its proper side, because…..Green’s corridor didn’t set at all until position 4, when Red is close enough to influence Green and Red’s course?

I must admit that I recall arguing this one years ago in a past thread, but looking at it in the context of the other arguments, I think this is the weakest. 
Created: 24-Mar-24 13:45
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John Allan
Certifications:
  • National Judge
  • Regional Race Officer
0
Ang, If it wasn't for the Case 75 'panhandle', which clearly says that mark-room is defined at the moment a boat reaches the zone, it would have been open to argue that mark-room became defined (reset, calculated anew) at some later time.  Once you have Case 75, I don't think you can do that.
Created: 24-Mar-24 20:42
P
John Allan
Certifications:
  • National Judge
  • Regional Race Officer
0
Beau Vrolyk Said  Created: 24-Mar-17 17:01 For those who are adding information to the OP, I’d point out that many of us who do Match Racing do precisely what Green is doing to clear a penalty. 

Better not.

RRS C7.3(b) says
 No part of a penalty may be taken inside the zone of a rounding mark that begins, bounds or ends the leg the boat is on.
Created: 24-Mar-24 22:31
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Beau Vrolyk
Nationality: United States
0
John — Thanks, I clearly need to catch up on my reading of Appendix C. 
Created: 24-Mar-24 22:48
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Angelo Guarino
Certifications:
  • Regional Judge
  • Fleet Measurer
0
John re: “mark-room is defined at the moment a boat reaches the zone”

I hear you, but it is specifically 18.2(b) that is defined “when the first of them reaches the zone”  and 18.2(b) ceases to apply at 3+.   18.2(a) does not include that language, but rather is defined at any point rule 18 applies between boats and they are overlapped when 18.2(b) doesn’t apply (for instance 2 boats are on opposite tacks when they enter the zone, but later are overlapped). 

Anyway, I think we’ve done a good job giving out best arguments for the possible applications and reasoning.  I think a Case would be needed to straighten it out for sure. 
Created: 24-Mar-24 23:01
P
Angelo Guarino
Certifications:
  • Regional Judge
  • Fleet Measurer
0
Actually, mirroring Cat’s OP drawing focuses the question better by putting Green on port at 4 and removing her ROW.

Created: 24-Mar-25 12:16
John Ball
Nationality: Canada
1
I suggest that seeing this as a new mark room after Green tacks is important and not as a continuance of the same rights under a different rule - and the reason is that the mark room granted by 18.2(a) is different from that of 18.2(b). 18.2(b) mark room is continuous with 18.2(c) until it ends, while 18.2(a) only give MR while overlapped. This difference may affect rights with a subsequent change of positions.
John
Created: 24-Mar-25 16:04
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Kim Kymlicka
Nationality: United States
Certifications:
  • National Judge
  • National Umpire
0
Hmm.
Looking at the diagram, it appears that the zone is 2 btl, so we have either Match or more likely Team race here. This maneuver is to be expected at mark #3 (digital N course). The green team leader needs to compress the field.
Kim

Created: 24-Mar-29 21:55
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