Rules | ||
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Racing Rules of Sailing for 2013-2016; Version 6 | December 2015 | |
Racing Rules of Sailing for 2017-2020 | August 2017 | |
Racing Rules of Sailing for 2021-2024 | December 2020 | |
Prescriptions | ||
Australia | July 2017 | |
Canada | November 2019 | |
Great Britain - RYA has declined to grant a license for prescriptions and cases. | November 2019 | |
New Zealand | July 2017 | |
United States | February 2017 | |
Cases | ||
World Sailing Cases | February 2022 | |
World Sailing Q&As | March 2022 | |
Match Race Calls | January 2020 | |
Match Race Rapid Response Calls | October 2018 | |
Team Race Calls | December 2018 | |
Team Race Rapid Response Calls | February 2016 | |
CAN Cases | October 2017 | |
RYA Cases | November 2019 | |
US Appeals | November 2019 | |
Manuals | ||
World Sailing Judges Manual | December 2019 |
At least one (actually both) of the boats is in the zone and none of the exceptions in RRS 18.1 apply, so RRS 18 applies.
Definition Clear Astern and Clear Ahead; Overlap says
These terms always apply to boats on the same tack. They apply to boats on opposite tacks only when rule 18 applies between them or when both boats are sailing more than ninety degrees from the true wind.
Boats are on opposite tacks.
G is not sailin more than ninety degrees from the true wind.
But RRS 18 applies.
G is not clear astern of R.
R is not clear astern of G.
So
Boats are overlapped.
G has passed head to wind in the zone, so, in accordanc with RRS 18.2( d), RRS 18.2 (b) and (c) do not apply, so RRS 18.2 (a) applies.
G is between R and the mark.
So G is overlapped inside R and R is required by RRS 18. 2 (a) to give G mark-room.
They are sailing on opposite tacks, red needs to keep clear RRS 10.
They are overlapped because RRS18 applies to them. Also if green bears away and is less than 90 degree towards the wind they are overlapped.
RRS 11 does not apply yet because they are on different tacks.
RRS 43 will exonerate the boat with mark-room for breaches of RRS 10 or 11 if she sails within her mark-room.
PS: Not saying one way or another .. just that we should consider it.
The last sentence of 18.1 doesn’t say when mark-room was taken … it says when MR is given.
Under rule 18.2(b) she had room to leave the mark on the required side. Also, she had
room to sail to the mark when her proper course was to sail close to it.
But was she given room to round or pass the mark as necessary to sail the course without touching the mark?
I think this room continues until she has passed the mark as necessary to sail the course. It is clear that she has not yet done this, so mark room has not yet been given.
Murray
Did Red give Green …
Seems to me the argument could be make that Red gave those room elements, but Green did not avail herself of that room given. . If so, rule 18.1 states that 18 no longer applies between them unless Green exits and re-enters the zone.
Are you saying ?,…
“Yes, Green is entitled to all those elements of MR, but she is not obligated to take them or sail within the MR limits. Room to round the mark as necessary to sail the course cannot be given until the entitled boat first sails to the mark on its proper side.”
If we say that 18 stays on, then Green is entitled to MR from the time she enters the zone (assuming that Red was not inside overlapped when Green entered the zone).
Green’s mark room was space to sail promptly the mark on the correct side (Case 118). Though the MR rule might change 18.2(b) vs 18.2(a), the “sail to the mark” aspect of MR is part of def: mark-room and not rule 18.
Wouldn’t we need to know where Green entered the zone to determine if she’s sailing inside/outside the MR she is entitled to?
Or does MR “refresh” after Green passes HTW as we move from 18.2(b) to 18.2(a)?
But OK, feel free to crate your own scenario, which is not Catalan's.
That's why we have to discuss 18 even to answer the overlap question.
Prior to Angelo's question I would have said exactly what John Allan said:
I'm still thinking about Angelo's question. Wondering whether team racing can be instructive in some way, as slow roundings are normal (though not slow roundings with tacking).
Yes, but RRS 43.1(b) doesn't give exoneration for breaking RRS 21.2(b).
Also … if Green was doing a penalty turn and rule 18 applies …
So, would the room in Green’s MR from Red include space from Red for Green to keep clear of Red while she is doing the turn?
I discus this problem on my web site 'Johns RC sailing rules and tactics' in the Appendix Item B Mark Room and Depth perception - When things go wrong!
John
But, if rule 18 in fact still applies, that changes things. If green is not doing a penalty turn, the only change to the discussion above is that in addition to needing to keep clear under rule 10, red also owes green mark room under 18.2(a). If green is doing a penalty turn, Angelo’s analysis, that green’s mark-room includes room to comply with her part 2 obligations, makes sense to me by the wording of the rule. However, it strikes me that the overall intent of rule 21.2 would supercede that requirement in the definition of room and green would need to keep clear of red while doing her turn. Again, if rule 18 does apply, what consequence, if any, is there due to green not getting well clear before starting her penalty turn?
“Room to round the mark as necessary to sail the course cannot be given until the entitled boat first sails to [and is along side] the mark on its proper side.”
I’m looking for appeals that might support that statement, as I do not think it is in any Case. It would be a newer Appeal since the last sentence of 18.1 is new.
It boils down to how “given” is interpreted. IMO it’s more consistent to interpret “given”as meaning “both provided and taken”. Therefore, 18.1’s last sentence can’t be satisfied by Red at 4.
Back to the 3 elements of MR .. (assume no penalty turn)
Did Red give Green …
Room to sail to the mark
Case 118 states that this portion of Green’s mark-room was to sail promptly to the mark to a position next to the mark on the proper side. One could argue that Red provides that room. Depending on where Green enters the zone (maybe assume it’s 11 o’clock on the dial), this element of her MR could be a corridor from that zone-entry position to a position along side the mark. If so, one might argue that Green is sailing outside her MR at positions 2 and 3. We will look at position 4 in a moment below.
As far as MR elements 2 and 3, I think they can’t be given until Green is next to the mark.
Transition from 18.2(b) to 18.2(a) at #3+ [maybe a nice addition to our friend John’s “Transitions” white paper]
At position 3+, Green passes HTW. As detailed by John, none of 18.1(a)-(d) are true, therefore 18 still applies and because neither is clear-astern the other, they are overlapped with Green inside Red. So 18.2(a) applies the moment 18.2(d) turns off 18.2(b).
Question 2: From #1 to #4, Green is in a continuous state of MR entitlement (does not turn off/on). Therefore, since “room to sail to the mark” is an element of MR (not rule 18) and her MR entitlement persisted uninterrupted from #1 to #4, does:
Assuming Green’s entitlement to MR is uninterrupted, the above could be summarized as Green’s space to sail to the mark is:
Until a position between 3 and 4, Green has ROW and is not required to remain within the corridor.
In RRS Case 75, it is stated:
Murray
In Case 75, the rule breach occurs while P is giving S MR(a) room to sail to the mark. P gave S that room and in Case 75 there was no contention that P denied S the other elements of MR. P gave S MR, but broke rule 10 because S was not obligated to sail within her MR. The point of 75 is to confirm that rules of Part 2 Section A and B apply when rule 18 applies (unless stated otherwise in the rule).
Case 75 is good to apply here, since after position 3.5, Green is ROW entitled to MR.
So my questions get down to whether or not Green can be exonerated under 43.1(b) from position 3 to 4+ (back to Catalan’s Q of which rules apply), which depends upon whether or not Green is sailing within the MR she is entitled to.
Put another way, G only becomes obligated to sail within MR by the arrival of R. Prior to that time, she’s free to sail wherever she pleases. I can’t find any rule that obligates G to anticipate R’s actions and get herself out of R’s way before R arrives on the scene.
What am I missing here?
Catalan, is/is-not Green taking a penalty?
IS NOT
My question is not “when does she become obligated?”
My question is whether or not Green is sailing within the mark-room she is entitled to (and thus entitled to 43.1(b) exoneration). To determine that question, one has to decide what the bounds of that MR is, and that question in turn begs the question when, why and how is Green’s MR determined (and possibly recalculated).
I’ve been searching the Cases and Appeals (US, CAN, RYA) and it seems the only ones that talk about the “room to sail to the mark” component of MR are Case 118 (directly) and Case 75 (indirectly by application) and US20.
Unfortunately, in both of these Cases and Appeal, the boats are close enough to each other to be influenced by each other (when the first of them enters the zone) … and the rule 18 rule that grants MR does not change …. so there is no way using those cases alone to differentiate the question.
When Green entered the zone, she was entitled to mark room 18.2(b). She made a depth perception error and turned short of the mark. No rule was broken and no penalty turn is involved - she is sailing to comply with the string rule.
At P3 she passes HTW and the original mark room ends 18.2(d). As soon as Green passes HTW she becomes overlapped and inside Red and become entitled to mark room 18.2(a). As her new mark room starts then, any conversation of 'corridor; also starts then and Green sails her proper course to the mark and Red is required to give mark room.
As Green gained the new mark room she would be exonerated from any breach of R 15 when ROW changed, or 16.1(a) as she altered course as she was sailing within the room to which she was entitled.
John
For those who are adding information to the OP, I’d point out that many of us who do Match Racing do precisely what Green is doing to clear a penalty. To state the obvious, it is a particularly good time to take the penalty turn as Red can be held outside or behind depending on how close they get to Green. There isn’t any risk that Red can get Room at the mark and this puts Green in a stronger position than doing her turn at some place away from the mark. Continuing to add information that’s not in the OP, my guess is that Green would continue to turn downwind towards the mark hoping to push Red as far out as possible before they start complaining and Green is forced to head directly towards the mark.
John, looks like you are in the Ang-option 2.1 camp then …?
Beau, OP author states late in the thread that Green is not taking a penalty. My question isn’t if Green can get room “at the mark”, rather “Is Green sailing within the MR she is entitled to at position 4, and why or why-not?” (is it my 1, 2.1, 2.2 above or other explanation?).
Murray Cummings said Created: 24-Mar-14 14:59
This issue was dealt with in some threads back in 2019
While some of the wording may have 'slipped through the cracks in the rule amending proces, it is clear that:
mark-room has been given only when the boat entitled to mark-room is past the mark and she can continue to sail the course without hitting that mark.
If that were not the case, then the whole concept of team racing 'mark traps' would fall over, and TR Calls E5, E10, H1, H5, and J3 would be wrong and would need to be withdrawn. They haven't.
Here's Rob Overton's whole post.
I don't think mark-room can 'reset' in this scenario. G is continuously entitled to mark-room: when she passes head to wind, there is a rules transition (much too subtle for the introductory Transitions paper), but this doesn't interrupt the overall applliction of RRS 18.
Different at a windward mark, where tacking will switch off RRS in its entirity via RRS 18.1(b) or (c).
Where do you land in my options below? 1, 2a or 2b?
I can see the logic of saying something like 'mark-room doesn't start until a boat that would be entitled to it engages with a boat required to give it', but I really can't see anything in the RRS to support that, and the discussion by Rob Overton tells me that the issue was intended to be resolved by the 'passed the mark' or 'not influenced by the mark' language that got lost.
As i said in my post of Created: Yesterday 22:30, this would be different at a windward mark, where tacking will switch off RRS in its entirity via RRS 18.1(b) or (c).
So @4, G is starboard tack, ROW (RRS 10), overlapped inside and entitled to mark-room (RRS 18.2(a)), but outside her mark-room, not that she needs exoneration because she hasn't yet broken any Part 2 rule.
Presumably G will continue to bear away, and R will luff to keep clear, and very shortly, @ say 4+2delta, G will have her nose in the corridor and I'd say she was then back within the mark-room to which she was entitled as she continues to bear away and sail to and around the mark.
Of course as G bears away and gybes around the mark R will become overlapped inside her and entitled to the RRS 18.2(a) mark-room, but presumably G will be able to round, and get off and away before she interferes with R.
I can see arguments for each, some stronger than others, that at pos#4 Green is …
I agree that based on the Cases we have this is the strongest interpretation (she gets the ‘frying pan’). Case 75’s “corridor” comment and Case 118’s addition of “promptly” seem to put an onus on the MR entitled boat to sail a time-efficient course to the mark. That said, those cases do not include an uninterrupted MR transition from 18.2(b) to (a). Therefore, I think Case 75 and Case 118 clearly tell us what Green’s MR was from pos#1 - pos#3 (and that Green is outside it at #3) but the Cases are silent on what happens after pos#3 and whether that initial 18.2(b) MR calculation survives transitioning to 18.2(a).
I cannot find a single Case, Call or Appeal that discusses an uninterrupted MR transition from 18.2(b) to 18.2(a). I can see the argument that Green gets a new MR calculation at that moment as she acquires a new MR entitlement based upon new set of attributes (as an inside overlapped boat in the zone). 18.2(b)’s MR is calculated at a single moment and survives changes in the boats’ orientations to each other (is persistent by 18.2(c)). 18.2(a)’s MR on the other hand only exists when the single inside-overlap state exists (which can turn off/on or switch between boats).
So the argument would say at #3+, Green becomes an inside-overlapped boat entitled to MR from the moment that state-basis was true, and that MR, based on that attribute, includes space to sail promptly to the mark from the location she passed HTW at #3+ and becomes inside-overlapped inside the zone.
I must admit that I recall arguing this one years ago in a past thread, but looking at it in the context of the other arguments, I think this is the weakest.
Better not.
RRS C7.3(b) says
No part of a penalty may be taken inside the zone of a rounding mark that begins, bounds or ends the leg the boat is on.
I hear you, but it is specifically 18.2(b) that is defined “when the first of them reaches the zone” and 18.2(b) ceases to apply at 3+. 18.2(a) does not include that language, but rather is defined at any point rule 18 applies between boats and they are overlapped when 18.2(b) doesn’t apply (for instance 2 boats are on opposite tacks when they enter the zone, but later are overlapped).
Anyway, I think we’ve done a good job giving out best arguments for the possible applications and reasoning. I think a Case would be needed to straighten it out for sure.
John
Looking at the diagram, it appears that the zone is 2 btl, so we have either Match or more likely Team race here. This maneuver is to be expected at mark #3 (digital N course). The green team leader needs to compress the field.
Kim